Coincidence, Chaos, & Archetypes: Eric Wargo will be our GUEST

[Constance]

And time is bound up with how we think about consciousness, self, ego, etc. It's been suggested it's a linguistic illusion. I don't know the answer.

Neither do the physicists know the answer. Some physical theorists entertain contradictory ideas about time that are as different from one another as the ones discussed here in threads devoted to the paranormal.

Re your statement highlighted in blue, phenomenological philosophy from Husserl to Merleau-Ponty and beyond has recognized the radical temporality of human experience and consciousness. Whatever zones of time or timelessness might exist beyond the levels of our ordinary perceptions in the local world we inhabit, I think we have to begin as the phenomenologists have with the analyses of the temporality of our present embodied existence and how it affects that which we are able to think concerning the nature and structure of 'reality'. To be sure, we have many experiences that seem to take us out of 'time', at least temporarily. Eastern philosophy and mysticism in general have explored zones of apparent timelessness that can be reached through disciplined meditation -- a sense of reality beneath or beyond that in which we normally dwell. Dreams and other altered states of consciousness likewise produce senses of time and non-time/timelessness that we experience. The same applies to that which occurs in psychic experiences, mediumship, parapsychology, remote viewing, and other unusual states of consciousness. All of this needs further exploration if we are to understand consciousness itself and what is available to it at different levels, including personal subconsciousness and collective unconsciousness affecting what arises to the level of conscious thought.

A series of conferences were held several years ago by interdisciplinary scholars and scientists, including parapsychologists, concerning what they called 'endophysics', an attempt to discover the relationship between the temporality of lived experience and emerging concepts of 'time' following the recognition of the quantum substrate of classical physics. I have some links saved in Word that I'll post below to the abstracts of papers, the introductory paper to the conference, and a paper by Jahn and Dunne read at the third of those conferences, which you might find worth pursuing. Also some links added later that might go to the text of the book published following that conference and to the ideas of Otto Rossler, who seems to be the originator of endophysical thinking.

EDITED TO UPDATE THE LINKS, AND MY LINKS STILL ARE NOT WORKING. They are saved from several years ago and I will attempt to restore them and post them again later today. None of the following are working.


START HERE:

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

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Endophysics, Time, Quantum and the Subjective
Proceedings of the ZiF Interdisciplinary Research Workshop
Bielefeld, Germany, 17 – 22 January 2005

Edited by: Rosolino Buccheri (Istituto per le Tecnologie Didattiche, CNR, Palermo, Italy), Avshalom C Elitzur (Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel), Metod Saniga (Astronomical Institute of the Slovak Academy of Sciences, Tatranská Lomnica, Slovak Republic.

ROSOLINO BUCCHERI, MAURO BUCCHERI, in Endophysics, Time, Quantum and the Subjective : pp. 3-21

ABSTRACTS: http://www.astro.sk/~msaniga/ZiF_05/ZiF_abstracts.pdf


Whole of Jahn-Dunne paper: http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/2005-endophysical-models-empirical-data.pdf

On Rossler: http://k0a1a.net/meme20/world-as-interface.pdf


THE WHOLE BOOK IS/APPEARS TO BE ONLINE @ https://www.hse.ru/data/2010/10/31/1223461093/endophysics.pdf



SEARCH AT STROZIER COMPUTER:

EVOLUTION OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE AND THE ENDOPHYSICAL PERSPECTIVE (doi: 10.1142/9789812701596_0001)

 

[Constance]

Neither do the physicists know the answer. Some physical theorists entertain contradictory ideas about time that are as different from one another as the ones discussed here in threads devoted to the paranormal.

Re your statement highlighted in blue, phenomenological philosophy from Husserl to Merleau-Ponty and beyond has recognized the radical temporality of human experience and consciousness. Whatever zones of time or timelessness might exist beyond the levels of our ordinary perceptions in the local world we inhabit, I think we have to begin as the phenomenologists have with the analyses of the temporality of our present embodied existence and how it affects that which we are able to think concerning the nature and structure of 'reality'. To be sure, we have many experiences that seem to take us out of 'time', at least temporarily. Eastern philosophy and mysticism in general have explored zones of apparent timelessness that can be reached through disciplined meditation -- a sense of reality beneath or beyond that in which we normally dwell. Dreams and other altered states of consciousness likewise produce senses of time and non-time/timelessness that we experience. The same applies to that which occurs in psychic experiences, mediumship, parapsychology, remote viewing, and other unusual states of consciousness. All of this needs further exploration if we are to understand consciousness itself and what is available to it at different levels, including personal subconsciousness and collective unconsciousness affecting what arises to the level of conscious thought.

A series of conferences were held several years ago by interdisciplinary scholars and scientists, including parapsychologists, concerning what they called 'endophysics', an attempt to discover the relationship between the temporality of lived experience and emerging concepts of 'time' following the recognition of the quantum substrate of classical physics. I have some links saved in Word that I'll post below to the abstracts of papers, the introductory paper to the conference, and a paper by Jahn and Dunne read at the third of those conferences, which you might find worth pursuing. Also some links added later that might go to the text of the book published following that conference and to the ideas of Otto Rossler, who seems to be the originator of endophysical thinking.

EDITED TO UPDATE THE LINKS, AND MY LINKS STILL ARE NOT WORKING. They are saved from several years ago and I will attempt to restore them and post them again later today. None of the following are working.


START HERE:

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


Endophysics, Time, Quantum and the Subjective
Proceedings of the ZiF Interdisciplinary Research Workshop
Bielefeld, Germany, 17 – 22 January 2005

Edited by: Rosolino Buccheri (Istituto per le Tecnologie Didattiche, CNR, Palermo, Italy), Avshalom C Elitzur (Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel), Metod Saniga (Astronomical Institute of the Slovak Academy of Sciences, Tatranská Lomnica, Slovak Republic.

ROSOLINO BUCCHERI, MAURO BUCCHERI, in Endophysics, Time, Quantum and the Subjective : pp. 3-21

ABSTRACTS: http://www.astro.sk/~msaniga/ZiF_05/ZiF_abstracts.pdf


Whole of Jahn-Dunne paper: http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/pdfs/2005-endophysical-models-empirical-data.pdf

On Rossler: http://k0a1a.net/meme20/world-as-interface.pdf


THE WHOLE BOOK IS/APPEARS TO BE ONLINE @ https://www.hse.ru/data/2010/10/31/1223461093/endophysics.pdf



SEARCH AT STROZIER COMPUTER:

EVOLUTION OF HUMAN KNOWLEDGE AND THE ENDOPHYSICAL PERSPECTIVE (doi: 10.1142/9789812701596_0001)

This link will take you to the Endophysics material published in book form (costly). You can follow the arrows to the abstracts of the papers or link to them on a separate page linked at bottom of this page:

ZiF:Workshop Endophysics, Time, Quantum and the Subjective

A number of these papers are available online by searching their authors and titles individually.

 

[Constance]

Also relevant:

Yet another time about time … Part I: An Essay on the Phenomenology of Physical Time - ResearchGate

 

[boomerang]

So if UFO's are trying to teach us something about time, and they keep involving themselves in the lives of witnesses, inserting themselves into dreams and memories, even stretching deeply and persistently into our culture, then what is it about time we need to know that we don't know?

Here's the particular "something" to which we seem intuitively drawn about the UFO phenomenon. That it is here to teach us.

To paraphrase Vallee (yet again) 'What the UFO is telling us is that we do not understand time and space'. Assuming this is true, then is the teacher/student relationship between discrete intellects of unequal magnitude? Or is the lesson given by a process inherent in an evolving universe balancing increasing entropy on the macro scale with increasing complexity in sentient life? If time is indeed not linear, then we could conceivably be both student and teacher.

Perhaps the term 'Trickster' is a label for an agent working on behalf of a sentient universe pulling itself up by its own bootstraps (in the linear time language of the biological) as it progresses towards ever more complex states of self-awareness. I'm recalling a statement made by physicist Niehls Bohr, i.e., that 'A human is just an atom's way of looking at itself.'

 

[Burnt State]

Also relevant:

Yet another time about time … Part I: An Essay on the Phenomenology of Physical Time - ResearchGate

Thank you very much for all the exceptional material. The abstracts alone are highly engaging and do seem to hold a lot of potential to explore time as it relates to the experence of unique phenomena. This will make for some very dense summer reading.

I have to ask a) if whether or not this material (time and consciousness) was ever dissected on any of the consciousness and paranormal threads and 2) have you gotten round to talking about the paranormal yet on any of those threads, and if so what headway has been made? You're like a mini think tank research team and I keep wanting to see semi-annual reports.

 

[Eric Wargo]

Thanks, Constance--these look like fascinating sources! Coincidentally (to the Jahn and Dunne paper), I'm at the Society for Scientific Exploration meeting in Rockville Maryland right now, and Jahn and Dunne are both here, along with a number of other interesting folks in the field of psi and UFO research. Can't wait to pick a few brains.

Another interesting model of time and its relationship to consciousness I recently read is a new book called Syntropy, by Ulisse di Corpo and Antonella Vannini. Syntropy is a proposed complementary force to entropy, which "attracts" from the future--it's kind of a synthesis of quantum and systems theory.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Thanks, Constance--these look like fascinating sources! Coincidentally (to the Jahn and Dunne paper), I'm at the Society for Scientific Exploration meeting in Rockville Maryland right now, and Jahn and Dunne are both here, along with a number of other interesting folks in the field of psi and UFO research. Can't wait to pick a few brains.

Another interesting model of time and its relationship to consciousness I recently read is a new book called Syntropy, by Ulisse di Corpo and Antonella Vannini. Syntropy is a proposed complementary force to entropy, which "attracts" from the future--it's kind of a synthesis of quantum and systems theory.

Woo frickin' hoo! Now that *is* cool! One of my favorite groups, wish I could have afforded to take the time off and go. Keep us posted!

 

[Eric Wargo]

Here's the particular "something" to which we seem intuitively drawn about the UFO phenomenon. That it is here to teach us.

To paraphrase Vallee (yet again) 'What the UFO is telling us is that we do not understand time and space'. Assuming this is true, then is the teacher/student relationship between discrete intellects of unequal magnitude? Or is the lesson given by a process inherent in an evolving universe balancing increasing entropy on the macro scale with increasing complexity in sentient life? If time is indeed not linear, then we could conceivably be both student and teacher.

Perhaps the term 'Trickster' is a label for an agent working on behalf of a sentient universe pulling itself up by its own bootstraps (in the linear time language of the biological) as it progresses towards ever more complex states of self-awareness. I'm recalling a statement made by physicist Niehls Bohr, i.e., that 'A human is just an atom's way of looking at itself.'

Although we are intuitively drawn to the notion that the UFO phenomenon is here to teach us, I think we should beware of that kind of anthropocentric thinking--that its presence is for our benefit somehow (or that it even cares at all). That could be the case, but it is alarmingly reminiscent of how indigenous peoples in Melanesia thought of white men after first contact, and the kind of cargo cult mentality that ripped apart those societies: 'These bizarre people are here with astonishing technology, so it somehow must be for our benefit, to bring something to us--if not technological boons/uplift, then knowledge.' Even if we have something to learn from the phenomenon, teaching us may not be its purpose or intent.

 

[Constance]

Although we are intuitively drawn to the notion that the UFO phenomenon is here to teach us, I think we should beware of that kind of anthropocentric thinking--that its presence is for our benefit somehow (or that it even cares at all). That could be the case, but it is alarmingly reminiscent of how indigenous peoples in Melanesia thought of white men after first contact, and the kind of cargo cult mentality that ripped apart those societies: 'These bizarre people are here with astonishing technology, so it somehow must be for our benefit, to bring something to us--if not technological boons/uplift, then knowledge.' Even if we have something to learn from the phenomenon, teaching us may not be its purpose or intent.

I'm in complete agreement with what you write there. Much of the line of anthropocentric thinking expressed in recently popular paranormal theories concerning ufos seems to have evolved from attempts to construe what Vallee meant in his postulation of a 'control system' involving ufos. I wish someone who thinks on the basis of that phrase from Vallee would post extracts from Vallee's writings clarifying what he meant by the phrase 'control system'.

 

[Constance]

Thank you very much for all the exceptional material. The abstracts alone are highly engaging and do seem to hold a lot of potential to explore time as it relates to the experence of unique phenomena. This will make for some very dense summer reading.
I have to ask a) if whether or not this material (time and consciousness) was ever dissected on any of the consciousness and paranormal threads and 2) have you gotten round to talking about the paranormal yet on any of those threads, and if so what headway has been made? You're like a mini think tank research team and I keep wanting to see semi-annual reports.

We haven't issued any semi-annual reports yet since the four of us generally resident there approach consciousness from different perspectives and backgrounds. Steve [@smcder] and I have found much mutual ground in philosophical perspectives and openness to various types of supraliminal conscious/subconscious experiences. I linked to the endophysics papers as far back as Part 1 of the thread, but little resulted in terms of discussion. At the beginning of Part III of the thread Steve posted a dozen pages concerning research into psi-informed consciousness from Kelly and Kelly et al, Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century, a major work that all persons interested in consciousness studies and paranormal experience should read. Almost immediately after that, as I recall, discussion reverted to problems in philosophy of mind and neuroscientific approaches to consciousness which are restricted by reductive, materialist presuppositions. We attempted a number of times in the first three parts of that thread to turn discussion toward psychical and parapsychological research, paranormal experience, Eastern thought and investigations of meditation (including neuroscientific evidence that deep meditation changes brain structure), but we've never gotten very far in those directions yet. Maybe in Part 5? Maybe sooner. Maybe we need some help getting there y'all. Everyone is welcome.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I'm at the Society for Scientific Exploration meeting in Rockville Maryland right now... Can't wait to pick a few brains.

Give John Alexander and David Perkins a hello, fin you happen to run into them!

Another interesting model of time and its relationship to consciousness I recently read is a new book called Syntropy, by Ulisse di Corpo and Antonella Vannini. Syntropy is a proposed complementary force to entropy, which "attracts" from the future--it's kind of a synthesis of quantum and systems theory.

Thanks for the lead, fascinating potential angle of approach... it's now on my short list of books to obtain!

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century, a major work that all persons interested in consciousness studies and paranormal experience should read.

Thanks for the reminder... now also on my short list of book titles to obtain...

 

[Eric Wargo]

We haven't issued any semi-annual reports yet since the four of us generally resident there approach consciousness from different perspectives and backgrounds. Steve [@smcder] and I have found much mutual ground in philosophical perspectives and openness to various types of supraliminal conscious/subconscious experiences. I linked to the endophysics papers as far back as Part 1 of the thread, but little resulted in terms of discussion. At the beginning of Part III of the thread Steve posted a dozen pages concerning research into psi-informed consciousness from Kelly and Kelly et al, Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the 21st Century, a major work that all persons interested in consciousness studies and paranormal experience should read. Almost immediately after that, as I recall, discussion reverted to problems in philosophy of mind and neuroscientific approaches to consciousness which are restricted by reductive, materialist presuppositions. We attempted a number of times in the first three parts of that thread to turn discussion toward psychical and parapsychological research, paranormal experience, Eastern thought and investigations of meditation (including neuroscientific evidence that deep meditation changes brain structure), but we've never gotten very far in those directions yet. Maybe in Part 5? Maybe sooner. Maybe we need some help getting there y'all. Everyone is welcome.

I haven't read Irreducible Mind yet, but I'm currently reading its sequel, Beyond Physicalism. Also a must-read.

 

[Constance]

I hadn't seen a notice of that sequel yet. Thanks for posting it. Here's the amazon link to the book and amazon's description of it:

"The rise of modern science has brought with it increasing acceptance among intellectual elites of a worldview that conflicts sharply both with everyday human experience and with beliefs widely shared among the world’s great cultural traditions. Most contemporary scientists and philosophers believe that reality is at bottom purely physical, and that human beings are nothing more than extremely complicated biological machines. On such views our everyday experiences of conscious decision-making, free will, and the self are illusory by-products of the grinding of our neural machinery. It follows that mind and personality are necessarily extinguished at death, and that there exists no deeper transpersonal or spiritual reality of any sort.

Beyond Physicalism is the product of an unusual fellowship of scientists and humanities scholars who dispute these views. In their previous publication, Irreducible Mind, they argued that physicalism cannot accommodate various well-evidenced empirical phenomena including paranormal or psi phenomena, postmortem survival, and mystical experiences. In this new theory-oriented companion volume they go further by attempting to understand how the world must be constituted in order that these “rogue” phenomena can occur. Drawing upon empirical science, metaphysical philosophy, and the mystical traditions, the authors work toward an improved “big picture” of the general character of reality, one which strongly overlaps territory traditionally occupied by the world’s institutional religions, and which attempts to reconcile science and spirituality by finding a middle path between the polarized fundamentalisms, religious and scientific, that have dominated recent public discourse.

Contributions by: Harald Atmanspacher, Loriliai Biernacki, Bernard Carr, Wolfgang Fach, Michael Grosso, Michael Murphy, David E. Presti, Gregory Shaw, Henry P. Stapp, Eric M. Weiss, and Ian Whicher"

 

[Burnt State]

I'm in complete agreement with what you write there. Much of the line of anthropocentric thinking expressed in recently popular paranormal theories concerning ufos seems to have evolved from attempts to construe what Vallee meant in his postulation of a 'control system' involving ufos. I wish someone who thinks on the basis of that phrase from Vallee would post extracts from Vallee's writings clarifying what he meant by the phrase 'control system'.

We've been down this road before. This Fate magazine article from 1978 with Clark interviewing Vallée about his control system theory is fairly definitive and most frequently available as a reference point for your question. It is also rather embematic of one of ufology's evolutionary moments as ETH meets a French intellectual paradigm shift up against more tradtional theories about what the UFO signifies.
Jacques Vallee Discusses UFO Control System - UFO Evidence

I've also played this video many times before in response to defining one of Vallée's modes of thinking in contrast to the ETH, so bear with me if you've seen it before. What's critical about Vallée, who started as the best advocate the ETH has ever had, is that he persistently evolved his ideas instead of remaining stagnant in the pursuit. His most recent position on the physics of information and big data filtered mining demonstrates an innovative use of the data we have with the new tools & new ways of thinking about reality.

In contrast, the esteemed Jerome Clark ends his ETH discussion with defining the difference between an experience anomaly, which is alive only in the mind and memory of the witness vs. the event anomaly, which has physical evidnce and he describes as the hardcore examples of the phenomenon. Clark's encyclopedia is definitive but his analysis ends where Vallée's begins.

So here it is one more time. The great spoken word approach to defining the battle between these two positions is alone worth the replay.

 

[boomerang]

Although we are intuitively drawn to the notion that the UFO phenomenon is here to teach us, I think we should beware of that kind of anthropocentric thinking--that its presence is for our benefit somehow (or that it even cares at all). That could be the case, but it is alarmingly reminiscent of how indigenous peoples in Melanesia thought of white men after first contact, and the kind of cargo cult mentality that ripped apart those societies: 'These bizarre people are here with astonishing technology, so it somehow must be for our benefit, to bring something to us--if not technological boons/uplift, then knowledge.' Even if we have something to learn from the phenomenon, teaching us may not be its purpose or intent.

Very true, that we should be aware of the "contactee pitfall" in which the UFO is seen as sent by some cadre of all wise space brothers for anthropocentric reasons. Perhaps close encounter witnesses who are permanently changed could be likened to wild animals who had the misfortune of simply living too close to above ground and ocean nuclear tests of the 1950's and 60's. They were undoubtedly killed and injured (and their DNA possibly mutated) by forces they could not begin to comprehend.

But it is also hard to discount the UFO as not relational to the consciousness and world view of mankind, at either the individual or collective levels. Consider its apparent affinity for human activities involving nuclear power. The phenomenon maintains a kind of precise balancing act in which it stays within a very thin but persistent margin between cosmic revelation and human insanity. And it often involves individuals of high societal status and credibility to do so. Google up the videos of astronaut Gordon Cooper and Senator Barry Goldwater going on record for all to see !

If the intimate nature of the UFO encounter and its effect on the living timelines of those who interact with it is not relevant to its presence and purpose, then perhaps at the very least we need a model in which its interplay with human society is explained as artifact facilitated by human neurology. There is a historically life changing and often life long entanglement resulting from close interaction with whatever is behind this awesome force. It by no means manifests in 100 percent of "good" cases. But it is a theme too recurrent and too well documented to ignore.

 

[Jeff Davis]

Although we are intuitively drawn to the notion that the UFO phenomenon is here to teach us, I think we should beware of that kind of anthropocentric thinking--that its presence is for our benefit somehow (or that it even cares at all). That could be the case, but it is alarmingly reminiscent of how indigenous peoples in Melanesia thought of white men after first contact, and the kind of cargo cult mentality that ripped apart those societies: 'These bizarre people are here with astonishing technology, so it somehow must be for our benefit, to bring something to us--if not technological boons/uplift, then knowledge.' Even if we have something to learn from the phenomenon, teaching us may not be its purpose or intent.

I hear where you are coming from Eric, but I am not sure that intuition has anything to do with it. Intuition is an immediate grasp of truth, there is no known truth concerning the UFO relative phenomena at this point. I think what there is, is the Guns Germs & Steel notion that mans instinct derived willful choices, when rationally projected philosophically into the building of social systems, do inherently lead to cultural survival or demise. I'm thinking we can contribute the anthropocentric nature of most mainstream UFO considerations to the floundering ego. It's the work of optimists without regard for evidence.

BTW, thanks for the Dunne recommendation via the show. Started reading this morning while doing my laundry and I must say it's hard to put down. I guess Russ is publishing a bunch of these old out of print classics. The Beyond Physicalism book is at the top of my reading list, and I believe that if you order the book directly from the author's foundation website there is a major discount to be had.

The bottom line with respect to UFOs and their interactions with humanity is that the evidence does not paint a pretty or "space brother" scenario. They and their technology can be, and are in many cases, harmful to our health, seemingly completely indifferent to us, and have complete control over aspects of an environment that it is far more so logical to deduce that we share with them, than it is to tout that they are visiting. In fact, as a point aside, aliens from outer space is an absolute anthropocentric position, much like any other folkloric derivations, because it contends that the motives of life forms that we don't even know exist are exactly like our own. As has been stated, we don't even know if they are sentient, or physical in nature.

Fact is, if UFOs were any type of real malevolent food chain or conquest oriented threat, we would have been toast ages ago. This is far more Bohm holographically enfolded. These things "know" us in the same precise way that ALL implicit environmentally relevant information is non locally interconnected. The thing is, unlike the presently land bound high grade monkey that we are with respect to precognition and retro-causality, this is the nonlocality sea that they seem to naturally swim in.

I agree that they give no indication whatsoever of teaching us as the 50s contactees contended, but we mean something to them. Something either essential, or possibly they just accept and toy with us, but the later seems anthropocentric IMO.

 

[Constance]

Grab Beischel's presentation and Jerry Gin's on BioGeometry, the former is cute as a button and the latter is fun stuff.

Mac, you probably know that Julie Beischel's Windbridge Institute's research into mediumship is an extension of Gary Schwartz's mediumship research at the University of Arizona, but just in case you don't I'm mentioning it here. I'm glad to see someone else here who pursues mediumship and survival investigations taking up from the SPR's extensive and productive mediumship and survival research begun in the 1890s.

 

[Constance]

Dark seances are for losers lie WooKook Waller Joel.

I think I comprehend what you're saying, but I'll have to look up Waller Joel to be (fairly) sure.

 

[Soupie]

We've been down this road before. This Fate magazine article from 1978 with Clark interviewing Vallée about his control system theory is fairly definitive and most frequently available as a reference point for your question. It is also rather embematic of one of ufology's evolutionary moments as ETH meets a French intellectual paradigm shift up against more tradtional theories about what the UFO signifies.
Jacques Vallee Discusses UFO Control System - UFO Evidence

I've also played this video many times before in response to defining one of Vallée's modes of thinking in contrast to the ETH, so bear with me if you've seen it before. What's critical about Vallée, who started as the best advocate the ETH has ever had, is that he persistently evolved his ideas instead of remaining stagnant in the pursuit. His most recent position on the physics of information and big data filtered mining demonstrates an innovative use of the data we have with the new tools & new ways of thinking about reality.

In contrast, the esteemed Jerome Clark ends his ETH discussion with defining the difference between an experience anomaly, which is alive only in the mind and memory of the witness vs. the event anomaly, which has physical evidnce and he describes as the hardcore examples of the phenomenon. Clark's encyclopedia is definitive but his analysis ends where Vallée's begins.

So here it is one more time. The great spoken word approach to defining the battle between these two positions is alone worth the replay.

The link to the youtube video isnt working on my device. Can you provide the title, description, or channel for the video so I could find it that way? Thanks.