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Computers Are Now Officially Conscious - The First Machine Has Passed The Turing Test

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Non-local consciousness is really a matter of consideration best served by Occam's Razor. Why do people pronounced dead, see themselves laying there dead, completely "removed" from themselves, and by memory catalog various physical attributes and objects in the immediate vicinity that they could not have possibly known about otherwise? Why and how do multiple individuals hallucinate the same imagery? The consciousness experience we maintain is independent of physically restricted qualities IMO.
I think there's still an argument for near-death psi, these events always seem to take place right around the time the brain shuts down.

I have little problem per se with non local consciousness, by which I mean emergent self conscious intelligence embedded in the structure of the universe.

What I do have a problem with is the idea that our brains tune into consciousness - there's simply no need or evidence for it, plus no causal mechanism, plus we are very different from person to person.
Consciousness (IMO) is a naturally interactive two part process based on polarized attraction. No different from any other such process in nature. Human beings are basically primary consciousness producing amplifiers/receivers that are in constant interplay with what is environmental, or "mother" consciousness. I refer to EC (environmental consciousness) as secondary due to our relationship to as much. This is actually a falsehood however in the big picture because all matter is born of environmental consciousness, or "God" if you will. However, due to the falsifiability of the scientific process, we have to start with ourselves. An undeniable quantification wherein measurement can gain traction. So, I call us loosely the primary aspect in the equation. This is an equation that I am unable to present to anyone at this time as I do not pretend to understand as much intricately in the least.
I have no problem with the idea of God, but I have problems with theories that require his existence.

It's too easy to become self-referential.
The problem with consciousness is that we have not developed (at least in terms of public awareness) technology that can contain, and thereby isolate, quantifiable frequency states beyond that which we can detect electromagnetically. It may not be possible for us at all apart from real consciousness independent AI which of course at this time does not exist, that we know of.
And herein lies my problem.

We can complete isolate a body from the electromagnetic spectrum of the universe.

Except maybe neutrinos and gravity waves.

People don't stop being conscious in those states.
Thanks Marduk. I apologize for the grief I caused you some time back, and I do appreciate your interest and furthering inspirations as all curiosity is an absolute inspiration to myself. In completely hypothetical matters such as these, it's critical to remember the words of one of the greatest Physicists of all time, Max Planck: Anybody who has been seriously engaged is scientific work of any kind realizes that over the entrance to the gates of the temple of science are written the words: Ye must have faith. It is a quality which the scientist cannot dispense with.

Planck and Einstein both were exceptionally profound philosophers.

No worries, and me too.

Thanks for the response.
 
This is an interesting exchange between Jeff and marduk. I have a few potential data points to add.

I think there's still an argument for near-death psi, these events always seem to take place right around the time the brain shuts down.

This applies not only to the consciousness experiencing an NDE but also to other individuals deeply entangled emotionally (consciously and subconsciously) with that individual. The SPR published two extensive collections of 'crisis apparitions' experienced by such individuals at the time of another individual's death. Precognition concerning another's death is another category of psi reported in SPR investigations, and precognition is also reported by some individual consciousnesses experiencing NDEs (cases in which the individual sees detailed images of his or her future life-to-be if he or she decides to return to the body -- i.e., his or her family, children yet unborn, and physical home -- that later turn out to have been veridical predictions). The latter is not reported often (to my knowledge), but often enough to have been noticed by NDE researchers.

I have little problem per se with non local consciousness, by which I mean emergent self conscious intelligence embedded in the structure of the universe.

One question being considered again today in the 'Consciousness and the Paranormal' thread is whether consciousness emerges -- in the early evolution and inflation of the physical universe or with the appearance of life -- from protoconsciousness {intrinsic interactive processes of information exchange in the quantum substrate} or whether consciousness is present in the first atom (Jeff's theory). In either case, the spectrum of protoconsciousness and consciousness can be understood as primordially rooted in being and as proliferating in complexity through the entanglement of information and minds.

What I do have a problem with is the idea that our brains tune into consciousness - there's simply no need or evidence for it, plus no causal mechanism, plus we are very different from person to person.

Newborn human babies are conscious (and some research suggests that they have been conscious at some level at some point in their development in the womb), so there may be no specific point at which "our brains tune into consciousness." In other species, the newborn are still more advanced in their development and emerge from the womb or the egg able and ready to cope with their new environment. The reincarnation research done by Ian Stephenson and others indicates that young children (~3 to 5 years old) maintain recollections of previous embodied lifetimes which, upon investigation, turn out to be veridical memories. This suggests that each individual embodied consciousness 'emerges' from a matrix of entangled consciousness that is 'nonlocal', the only question being "at what point?".

I have no problem with the idea of God, but I have problems with theories that require his existence.

It's too easy to become self-referential.

And herein lies my problem.

We can complete isolate a body from the electromagnetic spectrum of the universe.

Except maybe neutrinos and gravity waves.

People don't stop being conscious in those states.

Indeed they don't, as demonstrated in numerous telepathy experiments conducted by parapsychologists and psychical researchers. But what does that mean? Jeff does not seem to be arguing that individual consciousness is only operational when in contact with a universal plenum of consciousness carried by physical processes we currently understand.
 
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I have no issue with the idea that our consciousness can interact in means we don't yet understand with other consciousness in the universe somehow...

But I do have an issue with the notion that consciousness isn't generated by the mind, which is generated by the brain.

If you kill the mind, consciousness dies. If you kill the brain, consciousness dies.

If you disconnect the body from the universe, consciousness persists.

And, still, 20% of your metabolic energy is used by the grey goo between your ears which is also the only organ completely encased in bone (therefore it's really vital)...
 
I have no issue with the idea that our consciousness can interact in means we don't yet understand with other consciousness in the universe somehow...

But I do have an issue with the notion that consciousness isn't generated by the mind, which is generated by the brain.

How about this: in embodied life we encounter embodied consciousnesses, our own and others', but many humans also encounter disembodied consciousnesses. This is especially apparent in NDEs. The phenomenology of consciousness developed by Husserl, Heidegger, and Merleau-Ponty (to a lesser extent by Sartre) is a phenomenology of embodied consciousness in its transactions with the physical world in the local environment we inhabit, including the history of our species as anthropologically and culturally sedimented in our mileau. Phenomenology can help us to recognize the essential role of our situated consciousness in all of our experience as existents, but it generally stops short of speculating about what exists beyond the horizons of the visible world except to note, as MP and Heidegger did, that the visible has another side, the invisible, which is obscured by our situated perspectives on what we can see and understand. We have a limited purchase on the nature of reality as a whole. Thus, while it seems to us that an evolved mind/brain complex such as our own constitutes the sine qua non of 'consciousness', consciousness (aware of and interacting in and with innumerable environmental niches even on this planet) undoubtedly exceeds us on every side in the endless variety of experiences of the world that take place among other species, other forms and shapes, of consciousness, some of which might indeed be invisible to us.

If you kill the mind, consciousness dies. If you kill the brain, consciousness dies.

We have reason to think that the second statement is not true. Re the first statement, we do not yet know what 'mind' is, nor what consciousness is.

If you disconnect the body from the universe, consciousness persists.

Consciousness seems to persist, but I don't think we can know whether it is disconnected from the universe in bodily death. I doubt that it can be disconnected from the universe since it participates in the information that constitutes the universe (according to a theory increasingly prominent in physics).

And, still, 20% of your metabolic energy is used by the grey goo between your ears which is also the only organ completely encased in bone (therefore it's really vital)...

That's an interesting statement but I can't say that I understand where you're going with it. Naturally, embodied consciousness requires integrated capabilities for survival in and exploration of the world, clearly centralized in the brain. That does not necessarily mean that the brain produces consciousness; it may be that consciousness has driven the evolution of the brain as of the various species of embodied life we encounter in all the environmental niches present in the planet's ecosystem.
 
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I think there's still an argument for near-death psi, these events always seem to take place right around the time the brain shuts down.

What is near-death psi again? I know that I was just reading about that a short while ago and now for the life of me I can't find information on the notion/phenomenon.

I have little problem per se with non local consciousness, by which I mean emergent self conscious intelligence embedded in the structure of the universe.

What I do have a problem with is the idea that our brains tune into consciousness - there's simply no need or evidence for it, plus no causal mechanism, plus we are very different from person to person.

I have no problem with the idea of God, but I have problems with theories that require his existence. It's too easy to become self-referential.

Personally, I am unaware of the idea of "tuning" in myself. I see the brain as producing frequency specific waves, and I also believe that environmental consciousness is specific to an area of frequency outside the electromagnetic spectrum. The amplification and reception of each are based on charged attraction like the poles of electricity that produce current. I believe the interaction of both create individual experience relevant sentience. The only thing that would determine individuality would be the physical cognitive fingerprint of the brain itself. This is where personality and identity would come from. IMO, God is not a he, or a being, or an individual consciousness, but rather the force that holds everything together that Planck referred to. I see this force as the facilitative organizing creator force due to our dependent evolution as a species within as much.

side assertion of befuddlement: Is there no "quote" button in the editor for quickly denoted those I am responding to's original content? What's with this slo-mo clunkiness. Please, someone point out the quote button to this here maroon.


And herein lies my problem.

We can complete isolate a body from the electromagnetic spectrum of the universe.

Except maybe neutrinos and gravity waves.

People don't stop being conscious in those states.

Are you referring to "a body" as in a human body here, or just a basic body of inanimate matter?
 
I have no issue with the idea that our consciousness can interact in means we don't yet understand with other consciousness in the universe somehow...

But I do have an issue with the notion that consciousness isn't generated by the mind, which is generated by the brain.

If you kill the mind, consciousness dies. If you kill the brain, consciousness dies.

If you disconnect the body from the universe, consciousness persists.

And, still, 20% of your metabolic energy is used by the grey goo between your ears which is also the only organ completely encased in bone (therefore it's really vital)...

It is extremely important that we remain focused on the fact that 100% of what is being discussed here is theoretical at best. Most of what is coming from myself is not even theoretical in the least, but rather wild ass guesses based on solid analogously correlative, and deductively reflective, speculations. Conceptualizations based on very real pretenses generate hypothetical parallel considerations. This is how I work.

For instance, if we assume that consciousness is solely produced by the brain, then yes, we must assert that brain death ends consciousness due to it's responsible nature. However we do not know that in the least. We just know that when the brain dies, the record of brain wave frequency production is lost. Naturally this is because such monitored activity is generated by the electrochemical physiological processes of the brain itself.

A good abstract example might be any device solely reliant on direct current (DC), which assuredly, the brain is. If we remove one half of the polarized connection, the circuit itself is lost and the device fails. However this in no way means that the device, or series of networked devices, produces the energy used to operate itself. We merely are witness to the ceasing of device process. We haven't even actually "removed" or destroyed the device's actual power source have we? Rather, it's the device's power source itself that is responsible for what we immediately assume to be a failed component. It's merely a severed connection.

It is absolutely impossible to isolate the human body from the electromagnetic spectrum. Why? Certainly we can thoroughly shield the body from external bombardment of such frequencies, but as long as a human being is alive we are running on, and producing, electromagnetic frequencies. It's critical to remember within the context of such wild ass guessing, that I do not attribute environmental consciousness to the electromagnetic frequency spectrum. It is indigenous to the superspectrum, or that which lies outside the barriers or confines of the electromagnetic spectrum. My guess is that it (environmental consciousness) *is* the superspectrum. A component within our physical environment that we have never scientifically been able to detect due to it's extremely extended nature, unless that very spectrum *is* black or dark matter, cosmologically speaking.
 
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By near death psi, I mean that if the human mind is ever going to utilize this ability, it might be when under extreme stress, like when dying.

What I mean to say about the brain being encased in bone and that it's metabolically intensive, is that it must be really, really important and fragile.

More so than the hear, lungs, or any other organ. Evolution is what it is, the brain must be really important or it wouldn't bother. It would naturally be reasonable to ascribe consciousness to be generated there.

There is also the matter that if you alter the brain, you can alter consciousness.

Oh, and yes, I meant a human body.
 
Jeff can you say more about this?

"I do not attribute environmental consciousness to the electromagnetic frequency spectrum. It is indigenous to the superspectrum, or that which lies outside the barriers or confines of the electromagnetic spectrum. My guess is that it (environmental consciousness) *is* the superspectrum. A component within our physical environment that we have never scientifically been able to detect due to it's extremely extended nature..."

Anytime you ascribe an entirely new state of matter or energy to explain something, you're in the unknown country so to speak, and in tough territory.
 
"The phenomenology of consciousness developed by Husserl, Heidegger, and Merleau-Ponty (to a lesser extent by Sartre) is a phenomenology of embodied consciousness in its transactions with the physical world in the local environment we inhabit, including the history of our species as anthropologically and culturally sedimented in our mileau."

Constance, I'm unfamiliar of Sartre positing as such and I'm a fan. Can you point me in the right direction here?

Anyway, I come down roughly in the Hoeffstaeder camp, where consciousness is an emergent property of self-referential mutable loops, that are built from simple rules in our brains. In other words, a process that can self modify and isn't necessarily singular, but is squarely non-duallistic.
 
"The phenomenology of consciousness developed by Husserl, Heidegger, and Merleau-Ponty (to a lesser extent by Sartre) is a phenomenology of embodied consciousness in its transactions with the physical world in the local environment we inhabit, including the history of our species as anthropologically and culturally sedimented in our mileau."

Constance, I'm unfamiliar of Sartre positing as such and I'm a fan. Can you point me in the right direction here?

Merleau-Ponty's critique of Sartre's philosophy of consciousness, expressed both directly to Sartre over the years they worked together as editors of Le Monde and in various places in MP's writings, concerned the dualism maintained in Sartre's key concepts of the pour soi {individual consciousness, the 'for-itself'} and the en-soi {the 'in-itself, the being of things presumed to lack consciousness, also referred to as a whole as 'brute being'}. In Sartre, human consciousnesses are generally perceived as alienated from one another, the sole exception being what Sartre called the "We-Subject" that he proposed to be constituted by the solidarity and formation of a single point of view by revolutionaries committed to the overthrow of Capitalism.
 
Merleau-Ponty's critique of Sartre's philosophy of consciousness, expressed both directly to Sartre over the years they worked together as editors of Le Monde and in various places in MP's writings, concerned the dualism maintained in Sartre's key concepts of the pour soi {individual consciousness, the 'for-itself'} and the en-soi {the 'in-itself, the being of things presumed to lack consciousness, also referred to as a whole as 'brute being'}. In Sartre, human consciousnesses are generally perceived as alienated from one another, the sole exception being what Sartre called the "We-Subject" that he proposed to be constituted by the solidarity and formation of a single point of view by revolutionaries committed to the overthrow of Capitalism.
You just added to my reading list pile... again!

Thanks!
 
I have no issue with the idea that our consciousness can interact in means we don't yet understand with other consciousness in the universe somehow...

But I do have an issue with the notion that consciousness isn't generated by the mind, which is generated by the brain.


It has not been demonstrated (and I doubt it will or can be) that either consciousness or mind are "generated by the brain," though the brain is clearly instrumental in the coordinated operational functioning of any embodied consciousness and its developing capacity for what we call 'mind'. Phenomenologists doubt that consciousness and mind can be duplicated in computers because their investigations have shown that conscious experience in and of the world is the ground out of which reflection on one's experiences begins and subsequently enables increasingly complex thinking (mind). Human and other newborn beings are conscious at birth but require various kinds of experience in the world to attain the capacity for reflection on what they experience and what it means (signifies). Thus consciousness is primary, its active life taking root in the 'primacy of perception' {MP} of the environing world -- the perceptible things, structures, situations, and others, conscious others, also present in it.
 
It has not been demonstrated (and I doubt it will or can be) that either consciousness or mind are "generated by the brain," though the brain is clearly instrumental in the coordinated operational functioning of any embodied consciousness and its developing capacity for what we call 'mind'. Phenomenologists doubt that consciousness and mind can be duplicated in computers because their investigations have shown that conscious experience in and of the world is the ground out of which reflection on one's experiences begins and subsequently enables increasingly complex thinking (mind). Human and other newborn beings are conscious at birth but require various kinds of experience in the world to attain the capacity for reflection on what they experience and what it means (signifies). Thus consciousness is primary, its active life taking root in the 'primacy of perception' {MP} of the environing world -- the perceptible things, structures, situations, and others, conscious others, also present in it.
Maybe I'm missing it but I don't know how we're saying different things.
 
after spending a substantial amount of time with a "smart phone" / I think the goal should be ACS not AI ...


To truly listen to another – without reacting, without infatuation, without dismissal, without boredom – is an art and a grace. To take in what a person is saying and, in this, to receive them completely, is a blessing to them and to yourself.
 
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