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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 11

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Still not Frank Stalter.








  1. Constance Papadopoulus
    1 min ·

    An exemplum, a luminous canto from Wallace Stevens's "Notes Toward a Supreme Fiction" :

V
On a blue island in a sky-wide water
The wild orange trees continued to bloom and to bear,
Long after the planter’s death. A few limes remained,

Where his house had fallen, three scraggy trees weighted
With garbled green. These were the planter’s turquoise
And his orange blotches. These were his zero green,

A green baked greener in the greenest sun.
These were his beaches, his sea-myrtles in
White sand, his patter of the long sea-slushes.

There was an island beyond him on which rested,
An island to the South, on which rested like
A mountain, a pineapple pungent as Cuban summer.

And là-bas, là-bas, the cool bananas grew,
Hung heavily on the great banana tree,
Which pierces clouds and bends on half the world.

He thought often of the land from which he came,
How that whole country was a melon, pink
If seen rightly and yet a possible red.

An unaffected man in a negative light
Could not have borne his labor nor have died
Sighing that he should leave the banjo’s twang.
 
I (Constance) will copy here the post in part 6 of this thread, just after the post I linked second last above:


Constance
Merleau-Ponty was a student of Gurwitsch and later critiqued Gurwitsch's interpretation of Gestalt theory. The following paper clarifies M-P's development of Gestalt theory and recognition of its ontological insight. It is also perhaps the clearest paper I've ever brought to this discussion concerning M-P and his major development of phenomenological philosophy. Reading it would permit substantial progress beyond the failure of communication we've reached in this discussion.


"SENSE-MAKING AND SYMMETRY-BREAKING:
MERLEAU-PONTY, COGNITIVE SCIENCE, AND
DYNAMIC SYSTEMS THEORY"
Noah Moss Brender (McGill University)

Abstract: From his earliest work forward, Merleau-Ponty attempted to develop
a new ontology of nature that would avoid the antinomies of
realism and idealism by showing that nature has its own endogenous
sense which is prior to reflection. The key to this new ontology
was the concept of form, which he appropriated from Gestalt
psychology. However, Merleau-Ponty struggled to give a positive
characterization of the phenomenon of form which would clarify
its ontological status. Evan Thompson has recently taken up Merleau-
Ponty’s ontology as the basis for a new, “enactive” approach
to cognitive science, synthesizing it with concepts from dynamic
systems theory and Francisco Varela’s theory of autopoiesis. However,
Thompson does not quite succeed in resolving the ambiguities
in Merleau-Ponty’s account of form. This article builds on an indication
from Thompson in order to propose a new account of form
as asymmetry, and of the genesis of form in nature as symmetrybreaking.
These concepts help us to escape the antinomies of Modern
thought by showing how nature is the autoproduction of a
sense which can only be known by an embodied perceiver.


First several pages of this paper:

"Merleau-Ponty’s signature contribution to epistemology, which
takes up and extends one of Heidegger’s fundamental insights 1, is
the discovery of a pre-reflective, corporeal relation to the world
which is prior to theoretical knowledge, language, and self-
consciousness, and takes place through the perception and move-
ment of the living body. This is a naturalized epistemology 2, in that
it places knowing back into nature; in order to accomplish this,
however, we must not only revise our concept of knowledge, but
also our concept of nature.3 In particular, Merleau-Ponty argues
that we cannot understand how knowledge arises within nature
unless we abandon the Cartesian view of nature as a machine
composed of mutually external and indifferent parts.

If nature is a mechanism then it has no intrinsic meaning or unity.
Thus nature could only be meaningful for a constituting consciousness
that imposes a meaning on it by synthesizing its disconnected
parts into an ideal whole. However, this amounts to denying
that we can know nature at all. First, it means that nature can
only be known from the outside, from a God’s-eye-view that could
comprehend it as an object. But this is not our situation; we find
ourselves born into a nature that is older than thought, and indeed
gives rise to it—a nature that we can never encompass or transcend.
“Nature is an enigmatic object, an object that is not entirely
an object; it does not exactly stand before us. It is our soil, not that
which faces us, but that which carries us.” (N 4/20; trans. mod.)4
It is precisely for this reason that we wish to naturalize epistemolo-

[2 We could equally call it a naturalized phenomenology. The question of
whether or not phenomenology can be naturalized has been much discussed
of late. See, e.g., Jean Petitot et al., eds., Naturalizing Phenomenology: Issues in
Contemporary Phenomenology and Cognitive Science (Stanford, CA: Stanford
Univeristy Press, 1999); Sean Gallagher, “On the Possibility of Naturalizing
Phenomenology,” in The Oxford Handbook of Contemporary Phenomenology,
(ed.) D. Zahavi (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 2012); Dan Zahavi, “Naturalized
Phenomenology: A Desideratum or a Category Mistake?,” Royal
Institute of Philosophy Supplement, vol. 72 (2013), 23–42.
3 See David Morris, “From the Nature of Meaning to a Phenomenological
Refiguring of Nature,” Royal Institute of Philosophy Supplement, vol. 72
(2013), 317–41. See also Renaud Barbaras, “The Movement of the Living as
the Originary Foundation of Perceptual Intentionality,” in Petitot et al., eds.,
Naturalizing Phenomenology.]


gy—to understand how knowledge arises within nature. Second, if
the only meaning we can find in nature is one that we ourselves
put into it, then nature ceases to be an object of knowledge that
transcends consciousness and becomes instead an idea within
consciousness—a representation or mental construct.5

The problem is for consciousness to reflect on its own emergence
within nature, without projecting the results of this reflection
back into its conditions.
6 There must be something for us to
know, some nascent intelligibility in nature that is not placed there
by us—otherwise, knowing would be impossible. But this natural
meaning must not yet be an idea for a consciousness—otherwise,
knowing would already have taken place. For knowledge to be
possible at all, then, nature must have its own endogenous meaning
which is prior to thought.7 As Merleau-Ponty says in the lecture
courses on The Concept of Nature that he gave near the end of his
life, “Nature is what has a sense [sens], without this sense having
been posited by thought. It is the autoproduction of a sense.” (N,
3/19; trans. mod.) Thus Merleau-Ponty transforms epistemological
questions into ontological ones: what is this natural meaning that
is prior to thought, and how do such meanings arise in nature
without being posited by consciousness? How are we to think a
sense that is the source of all thought, but is not itself an idea?
In order to answer these questions, Merleau-Ponty turns to the
natural sciences—not only to criticize them, as his phenomenological
predecessors had 8, but also to learn from them:

'Thus, on the one hand it is necessary to follow the spontaneous
development of the positive sciences by asking whether
man is really reduced to the status of an object here, and on the other
hand we must reconsider the reflexive and philosophical attitude
by investigating whether it really gives us the right to define
ourselves as unconditioned and timeless subjects. It is possible
that these converging investigations will finally lead us to
see a milieu which is common to philosophy and the positive
sciences, and that something like a third dimension opens up,
this side of the pure subject and the pure object, where our activity
and our passivity, our autonomy and our dependence no
longer contradict one another.' (TT, 13)9

The key to this new “dimension,” for Merleau-Ponty, is the concept
of Gestalt 10: a non-synthetic whole that cannot be analyzed into
mutually external parts. Merleau-Ponty appropriates this concept—
which he translates as “form” (forme) or “structure” (structure)—
from the German school of Gestalt psychology. However, he argues
that the Gestalt psychologists have failed to recognize the true
ontological significance of their discovery. In the phenomenon of
form, Merleau-Ponty finds “intelligibility in its nascent state” (SB,
207/223; trans. mod.): a self-organizing whole that is not a machine,
and does not need an intellectual synthesis to constitute it.
Because it is neither a thing nor an idea (SB, 127/138), form
seems to point beyond the old antinomies toward a new ontology.
Everything depends, however, on whether and how it is possible to
think a whole that resists analysis. Form is not reducible to its
parts, but neither is it anything other than those parts. “How then
are we to understand this relation of the totality to its parts? What
status must we give totality?” This question, Merleau-Ponty says,
“is at the center of this course on the idea of Nature and maybe the
whole of philosophy.” (N, 145/194; my emphasis)

Merleau-Ponty’s first—and in some ways most complete—
attempt to articulate a Gestalt ontology can be found in his first
book, The Structure of Behavior.11 Merleau-Ponty never abandoned

[9 Translation taken from Bernhard Waldenfels, “Perception and Structure in
Merleau-Ponty,” Research in Phenomenology, vol. 10, no. 1 (1980), 21.
10 “Indeed, it is no exaggeration to say that from the beginning to the end,
Merleau-Ponty was attempting to think the form discovered by Gestalt psychology;
and that in this sense, form takes the place of the ‘thing itself’ to
which the Husserlian precept enjoins us to return: all of Merleau-Ponty’s
descriptions, of behaviour as of the perceived world, are guided and constrained
by the Gestalt.” Renaud Barbaras, “Merleau-Ponty et la psychologie de
la forme,” Les Études philosophiques, vol. 57, no. 2 (2001), 151–63, here 151;
my translation.
11 Toadvine, Merleau-Ponty’s Philosophy of Nature, 21. I am here siding with
Toadvine against commentators who argue that Merleau-Ponty only turned to
ontology toward the end of his life, when he was writing The Visible and the
Invisible, and that this turn constituted a break with his earlier, phenomenological
project. Probably the most influential advocate of the latter reading is
Renaud Barbaras, e.g., in The Being of the Phenomenon: Merleau-Ponty’s
Ontology, (tr.) T. Toadvine and L. Lawlor (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University
Press, 2004).]


this ontology, referring back to this book repeatedly in later works.
However, he was never satisfied with the account of form he had
inherited from Gestalt psychology, which defines it as a whole that
cannot be reduced to the sum of its parts. In a working note from
1959, near the end of his life, Merleau-Ponty criticizes this as “a
negative, exterior definition”—it says what form is not, but does
not succeed in explaining what it is. (VI, 204/255) Unfortunately,
Merleau-Ponty died without having discovered the positive account
of form that he was searching for.

Recently, there has been a resurgence of interest in The Structure
of Behavior
and Merleau-Ponty’s Gestalt ontology. Of particular
note are Ted Toadvine’s Merleau-Ponty’s Philosophy of Nature
(2009), and Evan Thompson’s Mind and Life: Biology, Phenomenology,
and the Sciences of Mind
(2007).12 Toadvine turns to Merleau-
Ponty’s ontology in search of a new philosophical approach to our
present environmental crisis. Thompson takes Merleau-Ponty’s
ontology as the basis for a new, “enactive” approach to cognitive
science, synthesizing it with concepts from dynamic systems theory
and Francisco Varela’s theory of autopoiesis. However, both Toadvine
and Thompson identify a troubling ambiguity in The Structure
of Behavior
’s account of form and its relation to consciousness—an
ambiguity which stems from Merleau-Ponty’s failure to clarify the
ontological status of form.

In this article, I attempt to resolve this ambiguity by offering a
new account of form which builds on Thompson’s use of concepts
from dynamic systems theory.
I begin by summarizing the argument
of the Structure and explaining the ambiguity that Toadvine
and Thompson identify in it. Next, I discuss Thompson’s appropriation
of Merleau-Ponty’s ontology. I argue that Thompson fails to
clarify the ontological status of the Gestalt, and that as a result, his
enactive account of cognition or “sense-making” exhibits the same
ambiguity that troubles Merleau-Ponty’s ontology. In Part Three, I
work out the implications of Thompson’s suggestion that natural
forms arise through symmetry-breaking, in order to offer a new
account of form as asymmetry. Finally, I argue that this account
can help us to resolve the ambiguity in Merleau-Ponty’s ontology,
as well as in Thompson’s account of sense-making.

1. Merleau-Ponty’s Gestalt Ontology . . . . .

http://philpapers.org/archive/MOSSAS-2.pdf

Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 6
 
@USI Calgary, would you please contact @Gene Steinberg and tell him that the forum software has somehow confused me, Constance, with @Frank Stalter, or disappeared my identity in his, so that these last four or so posts appear to be his. I have to ask that someone else here inform Gene about this since my message access is also gone and I'd have to write to Gene from Frank's message connection. Thanks.
 
Playing devils advocate, there is good reason to believe that subjective experience is an executive summary of the body-environment interaction. So although the entire body is causally involved with SE, it is only indirectly.

Also, there are at least a few qualia which correspond to multiple stimuli, for ex bitterness and green. The taste of bitterness can be triggered by several different chemicals and the color green is triggered by a range of em wavelengths.

So again playing devils advocate, theoretically one wouldn't have to create a full copy of an organism to get similar subjective experience.

Except that qualia are subjective experiences of things and other beings in the environment. What we taste as bitterness might not be bitterness in the experience of another species of animal or even in another human being tasting the same substance. The apparent colors of things are similarly seen and affective in different ways by different species than ours. The 'experience of color' in itself reveals a vivid instance of how experience of the environing world is enabled differently according to the various affordances of the senses of living organisms.
 
Except that qualia are subjective experiences of things and other beings in the environment. What we taste as bitterness might not be bitterness in the experience of another species of animal or even in another human being tasting the same substance. The apparent colors of things are similarly seen and affective in different ways by different species than ours. The 'experience of color' in itself reveals a vivid instance of how experience of the environing world is enabled differently according to the various affordances of the senses of living organisms.
Constance, try logging out and logging back in to get back to your @Constance account. That is, if you want your OOFA experience to end. OOFA meaning out of forum account experience of course.

Re qualia

I agree with what you say regarding qualia but that doesn't contradict the point I was making. Regarding "downloading" consciousness: it seems we all agree that this is not possible in principle. And that the best we could do would require creating a replica of the entire organism and its environment.

However I am challenging that last point by arguing that subjective experience—what many people mean when they refer to consciousness—is only smaller element of the larger organism-environment interaction. SE is a model of this organism-environment nexus.

So theoretically if we wanted to replicate the SE-process of an organism, we wouldn't need to replicate the entire organism nor its environment.
 
@USI Calgary, would you please contact @Gene Steinberg and tell him that the forum software has somehow confused me, Constance, with @Frank Stalter, or disappeared my identity in his, so that these last four or so posts appear to be his. I have to ask that someone else here inform Gene about this since my message access is also gone and I'd have to write to Gene from Frank's message connection. Thanks.
This has been happened to several of us including me. Gene has been consulting with the forum software people to try to find the cause. I've offered some pointers, but resolving the problem is beyond my scope here. You can avoid it by making sure that after a session you log out and close your browser. My browser is also set to delete browsing data on exit. If yours isn't set to do that then manually delete the cache and cookies, and don't put your computer to sleep while you're logged in, and then return to the forum later without first logging out and then logging back in.
 
Randal ...
That's Randall as in Rand + all.
... the notion that a human individual's consciousness could be contained and frozen as a 'thing', an object of some sort, and transferred -- 'downloaded' into or duplicated in another living being or a computational network -- is sheerest nonsense.
Duplication may be possible, but downloading in the sense of consciousness being transported intact out of one person and into another host is much more problematic. This reminds me of the Star Trek TOS episode, Spocks Brain.
Which issue? You seem to have referenced two issues.
The issue I was referring to is the quantization of time as is pertains to consciousness and the persistence of personhood through time.
[Btw, Randal, his surname is a compound: 'Merleau-Ponty', first name 'Maurice'.
Yes. I was being lazy. Like when someone only uses one "l" on the end of my name :p .
You'd have to read a great deal of MP's writing to understand even what I've said just above.
I grasp concepts rather well and don't believe I'm lost with respect to what's been said. However our respective views may not be harmonious. Perhaps if we deal with just two of the ideas you mention. The first is what it means to be "continuous". This is relevant to my question on time. The second is what is meant by "history", which in the context I'm coming from is synonymous with "memory". And the context of the problem isn't to dispute that we have experience. It's the question of how exactly is experience possible given that time seems to be quantized and memory storage is discrete? We run into paradoxes that lead to the inevitable conclusion that our experience of existence and history are illusory. I would also contend that anyone who claims to have the ultimate answer to these problems is most likely fooling themselves, and yes that would include me ( if I were to be so bold as to make such a claim ).
 
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This has been happened to several of us including me. Gene has been consulting with the forum software people to try to find the cause. I've offered some pointers, but resolving the problem is beyond my scope here. You can avoid it by making sure that after a session you log out and close your browser. My browser is also set to delete browsing data on exit. If yours isn't set to do that then manually delete the cache and cookies, and don't put your computer to sleep while you're logged in, and then return to the forum later without first logging out and then logging back in.

Sounds complicated and time-consuming to do all that every day one visits this site. But thank you for the information you provided and for your suggestions about avoiding future problems here.
 
Duplication may be possible, but downloading in the sense of consciousness being transported intact out of one person and into another host is much more problematic.


Duplication of what?

The issue I was referring to is the quantization of time as is pertains to consciousness and the persistence of personhood through time.

Sounds interesting. Can you link one or two good papers concerning how quantization of time relates to "consciousness and the persistence of personhood through time"? I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow.




 
Duplication of what?
Consciousness
Sounds interesting. Can you link one or two good papers concerning how quantization of time relates to "consciousness and the persistence of personhood through time"? I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow.
I don't know of any papers on the quantization of time as it relates to consciousness and the persistence of personhood through time. I inquired about it with @Constance because she's very good at coming up with resource material. The problems associated with the quantization of time as it relates to consciousness and the persistence of personhood through time simply came to mind from my independent thought on the related issues. I do that a lot. I don't simply regurgitate other people's work and ideas unless it's required for descriptive or reference purposes. Unfortunately that ability isn't always as appreciated as one might expect. Fortunately That doesn't matter here either.
 
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Sounds complicated and time-consuming to do all that every day one visits this site. But thank you for the information you provided and for your suggestions about avoiding future problems here.
It's actually quite easy and takes very little time on a regular PC. Once the browser is set to automatically delete browsing data on exit, it's as simple as logging out and closing the browser when you're done with it. I don't know about mobile apps. Finding the settings in the browser only takes a minute if you know how to navigate menus, and you only need to do it once. If you have trouble navigating menus just run a search for it e.g. ...
 
Consciousness I don't know of any papers on the quantization of time as it relates to consciousness and the persistence of personhood through time. I inquired about it with @Constance because she's very good at coming up with resource material. The problems associated with the quantization of time as it relates to consciousness and the persistence of personhood through time simply came to mind from my independent thought on the related issues. I do that a lot. I don't simply regurgitate other people's work and ideas unless it's required for descriptive or reference purposes. Unfortunately that ability isn't always as appreciated as one might expect. Fortunately That doesn't matter here either.

Then can you explain how 'quantization of time' works -- if it works and is not merely a speculation or a potential hypothesis that could be tested? Here's a search page with links to articles and papers that might help you find out.

quantization of time - Bing
 
@Randall, what is it that leads you to think that consciousness can be 'duplicated'?
Frank, no offense intended but how do we roncile this? Hoping it is the REAL Frank who ai enjoy.

"@USI Calgary, would you please contact @Gene Steinberg and tell him that the forum software has somehow confused me, Constance, with @Frank Stalter, or disappeared my identity in his, so that these last four or so posts appear to be his. I have to ask that someone else here inform Gene about this since my message access is also gone and I'd have to write to Gene from Frank's message connection. Thanks."

:confused:
 
Frank, no offense intended but how do we roncile this? Hoping it is the REAL Frank who ai enjoy.

"@USI Calgary, would you please contact @Gene Steinberg and tell him that the forum software has somehow confused me, Constance, with @Frank Stalter, or disappeared my identity in his, so that these last four or so posts appear to be his. I have to ask that someone else here inform Gene about this since my message access is also gone and I'd have to write to Gene from Frank's message connection. Thanks."

:confused:

I'm not Frank. I'm temporarily (I hope) dragooned into being able to post and send messages only as/feigning to be Frank Stalter. The problem seems to have its source in a glitch in the Paracast Forum's software. I'll have to call in help from an internet tech in order to figure out how to do some things recommended above. Part of the 'slippage of the text' and 'slippage of the technology' seems to have something to do with my now using Windows 10 which uses 'Microsoft Edge' as default browser if one has selected a different browser. Sorry to not be Frank. :)
 
I'm not Frank. I'm temporarily (I hope) dragooned into being able to post and send messages only as/feigning to be Frank Stalter. The problem seems to have its source in a glitch in the Paracast Forum's software. I'll have to call in help from an internet tech in order to figure out how to do some things recommended above. Part of the 'slippage of the text' and 'slippage of the technology' seems to have something to do with my now using Windows 10 which uses 'Microsoft Edge' as default browser if one has selected a different browser. Sorry to not be Frank. :)

I give up this is like trying to map a maze. Thanks to all.

17352-3755718285-1795f42d65-b-1.png
 
Then can you explain how 'quantization of time' works -- if it works and is not merely a speculation or a potential hypothesis that could be tested? Here's a search page with links to articles and papers that might help you find out. quantization of time - Bing
The links I viewed all describe the basic concept of quantized time, but leave out a couple of philosophical issues that seem to make it impossible for us to test whether time is quantized or not. Specifically, if we look at each moment of time as quantized, then as viewed from outside the construct in which the moments in question are taking place, the space between moments could be indefinite and we'd be none the wiser. In other words those within a quantized system system would be incapable of detecting any quantization of themselves.

This leaves us to propose answers using deductive reasoning and philosophical concepts. When we do that, we find ourselves looking at classic paradoxes ( think Zeno ). It seems that the only way to reconcile these paradoxes is to propose that time is indeed quantized. You seem well acquainted with basic philosophy so I imagine that I shouldn't have to explain any further as it should all now be self-evident what the implications are for consciousness and the cintinuity of personhood over time..
 
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