Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 11

[smcder]

That boat... and the donkey in it that's been flogged to death... perhaps no more. Alternatively, if consciousness is matter then we are looking at its evolution, maybe, in quantitive form, or, in the nature of its co-formation, or, in its transcendence... etc... This isn't my view really, I'm just putting it out there for @Soupie to consider. Come up with some ideas to make panpsychism work for me.

I like what I'm reading in minimal consciousness and PGS approach...i.e. more biological and less philosophical, relatively...plus the tie in to a.i.

I like panpsychism too, as a side dish.

 

[Constance]

I like panpsychism too, as a side dish. It seems to me that we (our species' scientists, biologists, and philosophers) don't begin to know enough about how the quantum level of 'reality' [or perhaps a level lying beneath it] has evolved and developed to produce the classical level of reality that we and other living organisms experience and which we therefore take, with good reason, to be 'real'.

 

[Soupie]

So last night I woke up to use the bathroom, which isn't uncommon. However when I got back into bed, I kept envisioning a car accident; the front of a car smashed. I was able to calm my mind and apparently feel asleep.

In the morning I was busy with the kids and dog etc. As I got on the road, I recalled the imagery/thoughts I'd had over night. I dismissed as I began to drive.

A mile from my house is a side road I use to get between two main roads. As I went around a bend, I saw a car sideways across both lanes and a car off the side of the road. The car in the road had its entire front smashed. Both drivers were out talking. There were two other cars stopped in the road. It had just happened I think.

I think one car was backing out and the other driver had sum in their eyes.

As I was three point turning to detour around the accident I recalled my overnight event. Pretty interesting to say the least.

 

[Constance]

So last night I woke up to use the bathroom, which isn't uncommon. However when I got back into bed, I kept envisioning a car accident; the front of a car smashed. I was able to calm my mind and apparently feel asleep.

In the morning I was busy with the kids and dog etc. As I got on the road, I recalled the imagery/thoughts I'd had over night. I dismissed as I began to drive.

A mile from my house is a side road I use to get between two main roads. As I went around a bend, I saw a car sideways across both lanes and a car off the side of the road. The car in the road had its entire front smashed. Both drivers were out talking. There were two other cars stopped in the road. It had just happened I think.

I think one car was backing out and the other driver had sum in their eyes.

As I was three point turning to detour around the accident I recalled my overnight event. Pretty interesting to say the least.

This sounds like an example of precognition in dreams and in the muted regions of consciousness surrounding them when we are half-awake, thus a lingering in the proximity of consciousness and subconsciousness to one another. The mystery is the precognitive element.

 

[Constance]

Poem Written At Morning

A sunny day's complete Poussiniana
Divide it from itself. It is this or that
And it is not.
By metaphor you paint
A thing.
Thus, the pineapple was a leather fruit,
A fruit for pewter, thorned and palmed and blue,
To be served by men of ice.
The senses paint
By metaphor. The juice was fragranter
Than wettest cinnamon. It was cribled pears
Dripping a morning sap.
The truth must be
That you do not see, you experience, you feel,
That the buxom eye brings merely its element
To the total thing, a shapeless giant forced Upward.
Green were the curls upon that head.

Wallace Stevens

 

[Constance]

Here's something I posted to a Mars image research group on Facebook yesterday that bears on the questions raised here for a long time now concerning visual perception and color. The linked article I was commenting on is from space.com, with an accompanying image from the Mars Reconnaisance Orbiter (see link below):

"Does color inhere in things or arise phenomenally by virtue of the complex facticities of light as light and changes of light make things visible variously to human and animal eyes and to instruments such as the Hi-Rise cameras? Like most 'either-or' propositions, that either/or question remains unanswered despite decades of research concerning color by scientific and neuroscientific specialists concentrating on visual perception. In the meantime, this article from space.com includes a statement that can only confuse readers here who study the enhanced rover images from Mars about the nature of colors brought to visibility by the Mars image analysts:

"HiRISE photos "are given min-max stretches in each individual color image to increase contrast," HiRISE principal investigator Alfred McEwen, a planetary geologist at the University of Arizona, told the website Inverse. "The dunes are actually gray, but appear relatively blue after such a stretch, because most of Mars is red."

I am hoping that Mars image analysts will comment here on the means by which colors of things, beings, clothing, etc., are revealed in their enhanced rover images enabling us to see what is 'there' in the images obtained by the rover cameras.

https://www.space.com/41008-blue-sand-dune-on-mars-nasa-pho…

 

[Randall]

I am hoping that Mars image analysts will comment here on the means by which colors of things, beings, clothing, etc., are revealed in their enhanced rover images enabling us to see what is 'there' in the images obtained by the rover cameras ...

Not from the rover, but one example: Gallery: The art and science of space photography
Another: The Photoshoppers Behind Dreamy Jupiter Photos - The Atlantic
This one mentions the Mars Rover: True or False (Color): The Art of Extraterrestrial Photography - Universe Today

​

 

[Soupie]

This sounds like an example of precognition in dreams and in the muted regions of consciousness surrounding them when we are half-awake, thus a lingering in the proximity of consciousness and subconsciousness to one another. The mystery is the precognitive element.

I always ask the 'why' question. If this was an instance of precognition—which if I've experienced such a thing this would be it—what was the point? As far as I know, I didn't know the individuals involved. It wasn't traumatic for me; I simply turned around and was a few minutes behind at work. And there were much more significant and awful things that happened yesterday. Also, the imagery/vision was not on my mind as I was getting ready in the morning.

I told my wife if I had left 5 min earlier that may have been me in the accident; but I didn't purposefully leave later.

I'm willing to accept this as a precognitive event. I can't prove that it was and not simply a coincidence. But 'why' I would have foreseen this event is a mystery. (And of course as you say 'how' I could have is a mystery as well.)

 

[Soupie]

I didn't purposely (consciously) leave later, but i could have left earlier. I distinctly remember my coffee being done and ready and I was going to leave. I looked at the clock and saw I could stick around for 5-10 minutes, so I did some cleaning.

So, I didn't stay longer for the purpose of avoiding the accident, I stayed so I didn't get to work too early. Maybe my sub/unconscious had other motives?

 

[Soupie]

I remember leaving my development and turning onto the first main road, and recalling the imagery. There is construction by my development so I was going around a large dump truck. I thought "i drive this route all the time; I'm fine." I was on the access road and saw the accident. It still didn't register. I was thinking "wow that's bad. Everyone looks ok though." I couldn't see inside the car on the side of the road but a lady was standing at the window talking to who I presumed to be the driver. Not until I was detouring around did I recall my imagery.

 

[Constance]

@Soupie, it seems to me that all the details you provide in these last three posts point to and support the theory in psychical research that consciousness cannot be understood in the simple reductive terms of 'waking consciousness-and-perception' alone. The question that arises and needs to be answered is this one: "what tributaries, forms, degrees, and levels of the subconscious mind [and of information and meaning it contains and expresses] overlap with and influence our experiences in waking consciousness and become available to reflection and thought, available for investigation, in cases like this recent experience of yours?

Our best guides to exploring the complex phenomenological territory of consciousness and mind have, imo, been Evan Thompson's books and Kelly and Kelly's books Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the Twentieth Century and
Beyond Physicalism: Toward Reconciliation of Science and Spirituality.

For an answer to the metaphysical/ontological question you ask, i.e.: "I always ask the 'why' question. If this was an instance of precognition—which if I've experienced such a thing this would be it—what was the point?," I suggest that the point is yet to be discovered, and will be a long time in becoming clear, but that our steady course in this thread has returned again and again to the question of the relation between experiential consciousness in lived being and the ontology of Being. Toward understanding this 'relation' I think we need to finally explore in detail both 'para-normal' experiences of our species and physical/ontological theories of scientific thinkers such as David Bohm, Karl Pribram, and others responsible for quantum field theories and holographic theories of consciousness and mind. So far we have only mentioned these ideas and their exponents. Why don't we go ahead now and explore these paths? Doing that should keep us busy for another three years.

ETA: See the table of contents for Edward Kelly et al, Beyond Physicalism: Toward Reconciliation of Science and Spirituality, at amazon [can't embed the link for some reason]. It might provide us with an orientation or guide to how our future discussions can most productively unfold.

TRY THIS: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1442232382/?tag=rockoids-20

AND AT GOOGLE BOOKS: Beyond Physicalism

 

[Constance]

Not from the rover, but one example: Gallery: The art and science of space photography
Another: The Photoshoppers Behind Dreamy Jupiter Photos - The Atlantic
This one mentions the Mars Rover: True or False (Color): The Art of Extraterrestrial Photography - Universe Today

​

I'll read the material at those links; thanks for posting them. Do you think this material answers the question I posed?

 

[Randall]

I'll read the material at those links; thanks for posting them. Do you think this material answers the question I posed?

I'm not sure which question you mean, but I was trying to offer something relevant to this comment:

I am hoping that Mars image analysts will comment here on the means by which colors of things, beings, clothing, etc., are revealed in their enhanced rover images enabling us to see what is 'there' in the images obtained by the rover cameras.

If you're referencing another question, just let me know and I'll have a look.

 

[smcder]

@Soupie, it seems to me that all the details you provide in these last three posts point to and support the theory in psychical research that consciousness cannot be understood in the simple reductive terms of 'waking consciousness-and-perception' alone. The question that arises and needs to be answered is this one: "what tributaries, forms, degrees, and levels of the subconscious mind [and of information and meaning it contains and expresses] overlap with and influence our experiences in waking consciousness and become available to reflection and thought, available for investigation, in cases like this recent experience of yours?

Our best guides to exploring the complex phenomenological territory of consciousness and mind have, imo, been Evan Thompson's books and Kelly and Kelly's books Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the Twentieth Century and
Beyond Physicalism: Toward Reconciliation of Science and Spirituality.

For an answer to the metaphysical/ontological question you ask, i.e.: "I always ask the 'why' question. If this was an instance of precognition—which if I've experienced such a thing this would be it—what was the point?," I suggest that the point is yet to be discovered, and will be a long time in becoming clear, but that our steady course in this thread has returned again and again to the question of the relation between experiential consciousness in lived being and the ontology of Being. Toward understanding this 'relation' I think we need to finally explore in detail both 'para-normal' experiences of our species and physical/ontological theories of scientific thinkers such as David Bohm, Karl Pribram, and others responsible for quantum field theories and holographic theories of consciousness and mind. So far we have only mentioned these ideas and their exponents. Why don't we go ahead now and explore these paths? Doing that should keep us busy for another three years.

ETA: See the table of contents for Edward Kelly et al, Beyond Physicalism: Toward Reconciliation of Science and Spirituality, at amazon [can't embed the link for some reason]. It might provide us with an orientation or guide to how our future discussions can most productively unfold.

TRY THIS: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1442232382/?tag=rockoids-20

AND AT GOOGLE BOOKS: Beyond Physicalism

Supplements from Esalen:

Beyond Physicalism Supplement

 

[smcder]

From the link above:

A Select Annotated Bibliography on Precognition

"Precognition—the appearance or acquisition of non-inferential information or impressions of the future—

(a wonderful definition!)

holds a special place among psi phenomena. Confounding as it does commonsense notions of time and causality, it is perhaps the most metaphysically offensive of rogue phenomena. In the past 130 years, a number of thoughtful investigators—none of them either naïve or foolish—have studied a growing collection incidents, all carefully vetted (excepting Rhine’s popularly solicited cases [below]). With the exception of the first author, Eleanor Sidgwick, who drew on a scant six years of evidence and found it tantalizing but insufficient, these investigators have repeatedly come to the generally reluctant conclusion that true precognition (or something identical to it with a different name) exists."

"It is perhaps the most metaphysically offensive of rogue phenomena." ....

 

[Constance]

I'm not sure which question you mean, but I was trying to offer something relevant to this comment:

If you're referencing another question, just let me know and I'll have a look.

I was referring to the question I asked in the first sentence of my facebook post, which I quoted in my post here. The whole post is linked below for convenience.

"Does color inhere in things or arise phenomenally by virtue of the complex facticities of light as light and changes of light make things visible variously to human and animal eyes and to instruments such as the Hi-Rise cameras? Like most 'either-or' propositions, that either/or question remains unanswered despite decades of research concerning color by scientific and neuroscientific specialists concentrating on visual perception. In the meantime, this article from space.com includes a statement that can only confuse readers here who study the enhanced rover images from Mars about the nature of colors brought to visibility by the Mars image analysts: . . . ."

Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 11

 

[Soupie]

@Soupie, it seems to me that all the details you provide in these last three posts point to and support the theory in psychical research that consciousness cannot be understood in the simple reductive terms of 'waking consciousness-and-perception' alone. The question that arises and needs to be answered is this one: "what tributaries, forms, degrees, and levels of the subconscious mind [and of information and meaning it contains and expresses] overlap with and influence our experiences in waking consciousness and become available to reflection and thought, available for investigation, in cases like this recent experience of yours?

Our best guides to exploring the complex phenomenological territory of consciousness and mind have, imo, been Evan Thompson's books and Kelly and Kelly's books Irreducible Mind: Toward a Psychology for the Twentieth Century and
Beyond Physicalism: Toward Reconciliation of Science and Spirituality.

For an answer to the metaphysical/ontological question you ask, i.e.: "I always ask the 'why' question. If this was an instance of precognition—which if I've experienced such a thing this would be it—what was the point?," I suggest that the point is yet to be discovered, and will be a long time in becoming clear, but that our steady course in this thread has returned again and again to the question of the relation between experiential consciousness in lived being and the ontology of Being. Toward understanding this 'relation' I think we need to finally explore in detail both 'para-normal' experiences of our species and physical/ontological theories of scientific thinkers such as David Bohm, Karl Pribram, and others responsible for quantum field theories and holographic theories of consciousness and mind. So far we have only mentioned these ideas and their exponents. Why don't we go ahead now and explore these paths? Doing that should keep us busy for another three years.

ETA: See the table of contents for Edward Kelly et al, Beyond Physicalism: Toward Reconciliation of Science and Spirituality, at amazon [can't embed the link for some reason]. It might provide us with an orientation or guide to how our future discussions can most productively unfold.

TRY THIS: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1442232382/?tag=rockoids-20

AND AT GOOGLE BOOKS: Beyond Physicalism

Interestingly, the very next day I had to make a trip to get something for the house. I had to take a busy freeway that I typically avoid. As I was straying my trip I thought "nothing says the accident I saw was the one from my "vision." In other words I thought there could be another accident with me in it!

After I arrived at my destination and did what I needed to do, I ended up heading back on the same road but going south instead of north.

In the both bound lanes, which I had just traveled 5 minutes before, there was another white car with its front end smashed! The female driver was still in the drivers seats, no blood but holding her head. The car she hit was off to the side of the road! Traffic was backed up for miles! This was a busy freeway on Friday evening at 5ish.

I have to run now but there are a few more minor details to share. Very interesting though!

 

[Randall]

I was referring to the question I asked in the first sentence of my facebook post, which I quoted in my post here. The whole post is linked below for convenience.

"Does color inhere in things or arise phenomenally by virtue of the complex facticities of light as light and changes of light make things visible variously to human and animal eyes and to instruments such as the Hi-Rise cameras? Like most 'either-or' propositions, that either/or question remains unanswered despite decades of research concerning color by scientific and neuroscientific specialists concentrating on visual perception. In the meantime, this article from space.com includes a statement that can only confuse readers here who study the enhanced rover images from Mars about the nature of colors brought to visibility by the Mars image analysts: . . . ."

Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 11

Thanks for that. The question itself is front loaded in that is assumes only one situation is the true when that's not necessarily the case. In other words it's like asking, Are animals a source of food or do they make good pets? Both situations are true depending on context. So perhaps a reformulation might help to illuminate the issue. What sort of knowledge are you hoping to gain by answering the question?

 

[Constance]

Thanks for that. The question itself is front loaded in that is assumes only one situation is the true when that's not necessarily the case. In other words it's like asking, Are animals a source of food or do they make good pets?

My post began in a Mars image research forum on FB in response to the statement I quoted from the space.com article:

HiRISE photos "are given min-max stretches in each individual color image to increase contrast," HiRISE principal investigator Alfred McEwen, a planetary geologist at the University of Arizona, told the website Inverse. "The dunes are actually gray, but appear relatively blue after such a stretch, because most of Mars is red."

"The dunes are actually gray, but appear relatively blue after such a stretch, because most of Mars is red."

The 'front-loading' you see in my question is prompted by that statement made by Alfred McEwen in the space.com article. Mars image researchers have shown that adjustments in available light suppressed in the raw images JPL releases -- note: obscured in those images -- increase contrast in those images, reveal edges and depth perspectives, and also reveal colors of things, beings, clothing worn by beings, etc.

I reposted my post in the FB forum into our thread here because it is relevant to many discussions that have taken place here in the last several years concerning the nature of color. Since @Soupie has led those discussions, I hope he will respond to McEwan's claim and to my initial question: "Does color inhere in things or arise phenomenally by virtue of the complex facticities of light as light and changes of light make things visible variously to human and animal eyes and to instruments such as the Hi-Rise cameras?"

Not surprisingly, my answer to that question points to the phenomenology of perception which reveals that experiences of color rely at one and the same time on a) what is seen {variously} by beings equipped with capacities for vision -- for see-ing that which they encounter in the world -- and b) what can be said to exist in the world. The phenomenological insight is that, on the basis of what living beings sense in their actual environments, these environments are indeed 'real' but cannot be sensed or understood in simplified, reductive, objective terms. Nothing can be seen or understood in the world we exist in without the subjective capabilities that we and other living species bring to our lived experiences in the world through the affordances of our senses.

 

[Constance]

Interestingly, the very next day I had to make a trip to get something for the house. I had to take a busy freeway that I typically avoid. As I was straying my trip I thought "nothing says the accident I saw was the one from my "vision." In other words I thought there could be another accident with me in it!

After I arrived at my destination and did what I needed to do, I ended up heading back on the same road but going south instead of north.

In the both bound lanes, which I had just traveled 5 minutes before, there was another white car with its front end smashed! The female driver was still in the drivers seats, no blood but holding her head. The car she hit was off to the side of the road! Traffic was backed up for miles! This was a busy freeway on Friday evening at 5ish.

I have to run now but there are a few more minor details to share. Very interesting though!

Very interesting, @Soupie. This second encounter with similar occurrent objective realities in the world foreseen in your precognitive dream only affirms, for me, that we (or some of us) do possess precognitive access to events in the world we exist in. It also suggests that the direction of foreknowledge, or fore-sensing, of actual events moves from the world to the mind and can move from the 'future' to the 'present' in the subconscious mind. The many cases of dreams about and waking intuitions/visions of the destruction of the World Trade Towers in NYC before the event itself occurred most dramatically bear out the validity of this precognitive access.

I'm searching for the website of a researcher at one of the Eastern universities in the US who compiled RNG data from worldwide instruments before and during the 9/11/2001 destruction of the World Trade Towers. In the meantime, see:

Precognition & Connectiveness | Jan 2002 | FMBR