Pharoah
Paranormal Adept
Thanks.
btw I don't actually have a dog... and she didn't eat my Heidegger either. I just like our (smcder) doggy messing about
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Consciousness and the Paranormal — Part 3
- Thread starter Gene Steinberg
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btw I don't actually have a dog... and she didn't eat my Heidegger either. I just like our (smcder) doggy messing about
You mean you never bought your son a Springer spaniel like the one he drew for your chart? Nevertheless, I saw a photo on your website of you with your llamas. Llamas are beautiful and must be wonderful to have around, and might be inclined to chew up Being and Time if they came across it on the lawn.
S
smcder
Guest
Alex Trebek What? No. No, no, that is The Pen is Mightier, Mr. Connery ...
"@Pharoah, here is a lecture by Whitehead that might prove useful for you:
Modes of Thought
Lecture Eight: Nature Alive
Alfred North Whitehead
Table of Contents | Next | Previous
"THE STATUS of LIFE in nature, as defined in the previous chapter, is the modern problem of philosophy and of science. Indeed it is the central meeting point of all the strains of systematic thought, humanistic, naturalistic, philosophic. The very meaning of life is in doubt. When we understand it, we shall also understand its status in the world. But its essence and its status are alike baffling.
After all, this conclusion is not very different from our conclusion respecting nature, considered in abstraction from the notion of life. We were left with the notion of an activity in which nothing is effected. Also this activity, thus considered, discloses no ground for its own coherence. There is merely a formula for succession. But there is an absence of understandable causation to give a reason for that formula for that succession. Of course it is always possible to work oneself into a state of complete contentment with an ultimate irrationality. The popular positivistic philosophy adopts this attitude.
The weakness of this positivism is the way in which we all welcome the detached fragments of explanation attained in our present stage of civilization. Suppose that a hundred thousand years ago our ancestors had been wise positivists. They sought for no reasons. What they had observed was sheer matter of fact. It was the development of no necessity. They would have searched for no reasons underlying facts immediately observed. Civilization would never have developed. Our varied powers of detailed observation of the world would have remained dormant. For the peculiarity of a reason is that the intellectual development of its consequences suggests consequences beyond the topics already observed. The extension of observation waits upon some dim apprehension of reasonable connection. For example, the observation of insects on flowers dimly suggests some congruity between the natures of insects and of flowers, and thus leads to a wealth of observation from which whole branches of science have developed. But a consistent positivist should be content with the observed facts, namely insects visiting flowers. It is a fact of charming simplicity. There is nothing further to be said upon the matter, according to the doctrine of a positivist. At present the scientific world is suffering from a bad attack of muddle-headed positivism, which arbitrarily applies its doctrine and arbitrarily escapes from it. The whole doctrine of life in nature has suffered from this positivist taint. We are told that there is the routine described in physical and chemical formulae, and that in the process of nature there is nothing else.
The origin of this persuasion is the dualism which gradually developed in European thought in respect to mind and nature. At the beginning of the modern period Descartes expresses this dualism with the utmost distinctness. For him, there are material substances with spatial relations, and mental substances. The mental substances are external to the material substances. Neither type requires the other type for the completion of its essence. Their unexplained interrelations are unnecessary for their respective existences. In truth, this formulation of the problem in terms of minds and matter is unfortunate. It omits the lower forms of life, such as vegetation and the lower animal types. These forms touch upon human mentality at their highest, and upon inorganic nature at their lowest.
The effect of this sharp division between nature and life has poisoned all subsequent philosophy. Even when the coordinate existence of the two types of actualities is abandoned, there is no proper fusion of the two in most modern schools of thought. For some, nature is mere appearance and mind is the sole reality. For others, physical nature is the sole reality and mind is an epiphenomenon. Here the phrases 'mere appearance' and 'epiphenomenon' obviously carry the implication of slight importance for the understanding of the final nature of things.
The doctrine that I am maintaining is that neither physical nature nor life can be understood unless we fuse them together as essential factors in the composition of 'really real' things whose interconnections and individual characters constitute the universe. . . ."
Alfred North Whitehead: Modes of Thought: Lecture 8: Nature Alive
Modes of Thought
Lecture Eight: Nature Alive
Alfred North Whitehead
Table of Contents | Next | Previous
"THE STATUS of LIFE in nature, as defined in the previous chapter, is the modern problem of philosophy and of science. Indeed it is the central meeting point of all the strains of systematic thought, humanistic, naturalistic, philosophic. The very meaning of life is in doubt. When we understand it, we shall also understand its status in the world. But its essence and its status are alike baffling.
After all, this conclusion is not very different from our conclusion respecting nature, considered in abstraction from the notion of life. We were left with the notion of an activity in which nothing is effected. Also this activity, thus considered, discloses no ground for its own coherence. There is merely a formula for succession. But there is an absence of understandable causation to give a reason for that formula for that succession. Of course it is always possible to work oneself into a state of complete contentment with an ultimate irrationality. The popular positivistic philosophy adopts this attitude.
The weakness of this positivism is the way in which we all welcome the detached fragments of explanation attained in our present stage of civilization. Suppose that a hundred thousand years ago our ancestors had been wise positivists. They sought for no reasons. What they had observed was sheer matter of fact. It was the development of no necessity. They would have searched for no reasons underlying facts immediately observed. Civilization would never have developed. Our varied powers of detailed observation of the world would have remained dormant. For the peculiarity of a reason is that the intellectual development of its consequences suggests consequences beyond the topics already observed. The extension of observation waits upon some dim apprehension of reasonable connection. For example, the observation of insects on flowers dimly suggests some congruity between the natures of insects and of flowers, and thus leads to a wealth of observation from which whole branches of science have developed. But a consistent positivist should be content with the observed facts, namely insects visiting flowers. It is a fact of charming simplicity. There is nothing further to be said upon the matter, according to the doctrine of a positivist. At present the scientific world is suffering from a bad attack of muddle-headed positivism, which arbitrarily applies its doctrine and arbitrarily escapes from it. The whole doctrine of life in nature has suffered from this positivist taint. We are told that there is the routine described in physical and chemical formulae, and that in the process of nature there is nothing else.
The origin of this persuasion is the dualism which gradually developed in European thought in respect to mind and nature. At the beginning of the modern period Descartes expresses this dualism with the utmost distinctness. For him, there are material substances with spatial relations, and mental substances. The mental substances are external to the material substances. Neither type requires the other type for the completion of its essence. Their unexplained interrelations are unnecessary for their respective existences. In truth, this formulation of the problem in terms of minds and matter is unfortunate. It omits the lower forms of life, such as vegetation and the lower animal types. These forms touch upon human mentality at their highest, and upon inorganic nature at their lowest.
The effect of this sharp division between nature and life has poisoned all subsequent philosophy. Even when the coordinate existence of the two types of actualities is abandoned, there is no proper fusion of the two in most modern schools of thought. For some, nature is mere appearance and mind is the sole reality. For others, physical nature is the sole reality and mind is an epiphenomenon. Here the phrases 'mere appearance' and 'epiphenomenon' obviously carry the implication of slight importance for the understanding of the final nature of things.
The doctrine that I am maintaining is that neither physical nature nor life can be understood unless we fuse them together as essential factors in the composition of 'really real' things whose interconnections and individual characters constitute the universe. . . ."
Alfred North Whitehead: Modes of Thought: Lecture 8: Nature Alive
boomerang
Paranormal Adept
We would probably agree that some words are more anthropomorphically loaded than others and that "progress" lies at the high end of that scale. It probably should be discarded. But I toss it in as a kind of place holder for a hypothetical natural process that results in ever increasing complexity, or perhaps a reversal or balancing of entropy, over time. The concept of increasing vs decreasing entropy in open and closed systems seems a straightforward concept at first glance. But it soon outgrows the size of something around which I can wrap my tiny mind.
What (I think) I am driving at in postulating a universality for the concept of complexity is the role of the observer (human or otherwise) in evaluation, what role the observer plays and whatever value judgements may accrue. It's another way of asking if complexity is an inherent property of nature, or rather an emergent reality modeling tool found only in conscious minds.
Pharoah
Paranormal Adept
This is something I am writing about presently.
Using your terminology I would say that complexity is an inherent property of nature and that mind is independent (that is, if one takes the narrower view that mind is exclusively a human thing that goes on in the head. Alternatively, if one thinks of what goes on in our head as a type of complexity connected inherently to nature, then one might have a wider interpretation of mind that encapsulates all types of complexity.)
All complexities are justified regardless of the complexities of human belief to the contrary (or otherwise)
S
smcder
Guest
Here's the article I referred to - it's originally in @Pharoah notes to HCT and we had a little bit of discussion on it above ... and here's an article on support for Nagel's natural teleology:
Where Thomas Nagel Went Wrong - The Chronicle of Higher Education
"The odd thing is, however, that for all of this academic high dudgeon, there actually are scientists—respected ones, Nobel Prize-winning ones—who are saying exactly what Nagel said, and have been saying it for decades. Strangely enough, Nagel doesn't mention them. Neither have his critics. This whole imbroglio about the philosophy of science has left out the science. - See more at: Where Thomas Nagel Went Wrong - The Chronicle of Higher Education"
May be useful in the discussion.
S
smcder
Guest
Copied from the Burnt State thread.
By altered state of mind, I'm identifying states of mind in which one is experiencing sensory hallucinations.
On the contrary, perhaps humans (and other organisms) would be just fine without the capacity to experience altered states of mind. (I doubt it though.)
Without the capacity - or the actual experience? At the individual level or ... ? Why do you doubt it? Can we conceive of individuals without the capacity to hallucinate? Why or why not?
One study from as early as 1895[45] reported that approximately 10% of the population experiences hallucinations. A 1996-1999 survey of over 13,000 people[46] reported a much higher figure, with almost 39% of people reporting hallucinatory experiences, 27% of which daytime hallucinations, mostly outside the context of illness or drug use. From this survey, olfactory (smell) and gustatory (taste) hallucinations seem the most common in the general population.
How do we know the other 61% have the capacity and should they be worried?
The UFO experience—and similar paranormal experiences—may be related to altered states of consciousness involving specific molecule families.
Some may be and if so, it doesn't mean all are. I would think states involve chemical changes - the evidence indicates that mental states correlate with physical states. Which specific molecule families do you have in mind?
A few psychiatrists and neuroscientists are suggesting that giving people hallucinogenic drugs has positive effects on their lives and thus their loved ones.
I think there are several good studies that under controlled clinical settings they do. I don't know if this has been controlled for the clinical and effects alone but it seems reasonable some of them have.
People report experiencing spontaneous altered states of consciousness, presumably caused by endogenous molecules or other processes. This may be an epiphenomenal byproduct of evolution, or it may be a capacity that has been adaptive in the (social) niches in which humans find themselves.
I notice that here you make the move from "involving" to "presumably caused".
In past discussions—not at the paracast—i have talked about NS acting at the tribe and species level, and have always been told a la Dawkins that it acts at the gene level. I am open to the idea that NS and adaption acts at different levels. I appreciated the link you provided.
I'm glad you are open to the science! You're welcome.
I was compelled to suggest they were due to the recent experiments with psilocybin showing that its use was deemed helpful to those suffering from death anxiety.
How do you see that the introudction of a hallucinogen in a clinical setting is evidence for altered states being adaptive?
I'm going to post this on the C&P thread - seems like it could be long over there.
By altered state of mind, I'm identifying states of mind in which one is experiencing sensory hallucinations.
On the contrary, perhaps humans (and other organisms) would be just fine without the capacity to experience altered states of mind. (I doubt it though.)
Without the capacity - or the actual experience? At the individual level or ... ? Why do you doubt it? Can we conceive of individuals without the capacity to hallucinate? Why or why not?
One study from as early as 1895[45] reported that approximately 10% of the population experiences hallucinations. A 1996-1999 survey of over 13,000 people[46] reported a much higher figure, with almost 39% of people reporting hallucinatory experiences, 27% of which daytime hallucinations, mostly outside the context of illness or drug use. From this survey, olfactory (smell) and gustatory (taste) hallucinations seem the most common in the general population.
How do we know the other 61% have the capacity and should they be worried?
The UFO experience—and similar paranormal experiences—may be related to altered states of consciousness involving specific molecule families.
Some may be and if so, it doesn't mean all are. I would think states involve chemical changes - the evidence indicates that mental states correlate with physical states. Which specific molecule families do you have in mind?
A few psychiatrists and neuroscientists are suggesting that giving people hallucinogenic drugs has positive effects on their lives and thus their loved ones.
I think there are several good studies that under controlled clinical settings they do. I don't know if this has been controlled for the clinical and effects alone but it seems reasonable some of them have.
People report experiencing spontaneous altered states of consciousness, presumably caused by endogenous molecules or other processes. This may be an epiphenomenal byproduct of evolution, or it may be a capacity that has been adaptive in the (social) niches in which humans find themselves.
I notice that here you make the move from "involving" to "presumably caused".
In past discussions—not at the paracast—i have talked about NS acting at the tribe and species level, and have always been told a la Dawkins that it acts at the gene level. I am open to the idea that NS and adaption acts at different levels. I appreciated the link you provided.
I'm glad you are open to the science! You're welcome.
I was compelled to suggest they were due to the recent experiments with psilocybin showing that its use was deemed helpful to those suffering from death anxiety.
How do you see that the introudction of a hallucinogen in a clinical setting is evidence for altered states being adaptive?
I'm going to post this on the C&P thread - seems like it could be long over there.
S
smcder
Guest
@Soupie
The Mystery of Sleep and the lucky few who don’t need it – Mind Update
The longest recorded period without sleep is an astounding 33 years, performed by 64 year old Vietnamese man named Thai Ngoc, who claims to have lost his need for sleep after a sickness in the 70’s. Surprisingly, he experiences no ill negative effects from this condition, not even the normal sleep deprivation effects such as fatigue, loss of concentration, and so on. Under normal circumstances, people who lose even a few days of sleep start exhibiting cognitive symptoms usually only present in senior citizens.
The Mystery of Sleep and the lucky few who don’t need it – Mind Update
The longest recorded period without sleep is an astounding 33 years, performed by 64 year old Vietnamese man named Thai Ngoc, who claims to have lost his need for sleep after a sickness in the 70’s. Surprisingly, he experiences no ill negative effects from this condition, not even the normal sleep deprivation effects such as fatigue, loss of concentration, and so on. Under normal circumstances, people who lose even a few days of sleep start exhibiting cognitive symptoms usually only present in senior citizens.
S
smcder
Guest
Sorry - looks like I left the link to @Pharoah's article off - here it is:
http://www.mdpi.org/entropy/papers/e3040259.pdf
Empirical Evidence for a Law of Information Growth
Richard L. Coren*
Electrical and Computer Engineering Department, Drexel university, Philadelphia, PA 19104. USA.
Tel: 215-646-1024; FAX: 215-646-5523;
corenr@coe.drexel.edu
* Emeritus
Received: 12 July 2001/ Accepted: 1 November 2001/ Published: 20 November 2001
Abstract:
Based on a robust, phenomenological model for the growth of a system parameter, a
relation is derived to test the evolution of such a parameter through several distinct stages. It is
found that data defining the acknowledged major changes in the evolution of earth, the life on it,
and cultural and technological growth, conform to this model. The nature of these altering
events indicates that information is the parameter involved, suggesting an unrecognized
behavior in the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
S
smcder
Guest
S
smcder
Guest
"the deeper I looked, the more odd results I found. Distractions can aid learning. Napping does, too. Quitting before a project is done: not all bad, ... Taking a test on a subject before you know anything about it improves subsequent learning."
"To say it another way, the collective findings of modern learning science provide much more than a recipe for how to learn more efficiently. They describe a way of life ... it's when the brain lives with studied material that it reveals its strengths and weaknesses - its limitations and immense possibilities - as a learning machine.
The brain is not like a muscle, at least not in any straightforward sense. It is something else altogether, sensitive to mood, to timing, to circadian rhythms, as well as to location, environment. It registers far more than we are conscious of and often adds previously unnoticed details when revisiting a memory or learned fact.
i.e. memory can improve and be more accurate over time
It works hard during sleep searching hard for hidden links and deeper significance in the day's events. It has a strong preference for meaning over randomness, and finds nonsense offensive.
not true!
It doesn't take orders so well, either ... If the brain is a learning machine, then it's an eccentric one. And it performs best when its quirks are exploited."
"To say it another way, the collective findings of modern learning science provide much more than a recipe for how to learn more efficiently. They describe a way of life ... it's when the brain lives with studied material that it reveals its strengths and weaknesses - its limitations and immense possibilities - as a learning machine.
The brain is not like a muscle, at least not in any straightforward sense. It is something else altogether, sensitive to mood, to timing, to circadian rhythms, as well as to location, environment. It registers far more than we are conscious of and often adds previously unnoticed details when revisiting a memory or learned fact.
i.e. memory can improve and be more accurate over time
It works hard during sleep searching hard for hidden links and deeper significance in the day's events. It has a strong preference for meaning over randomness, and finds nonsense offensive.
not true!
It doesn't take orders so well, either ... If the brain is a learning machine, then it's an eccentric one. And it performs best when its quirks are exploited."
S
smcder
Guest
@Soupie
Artists, Shamans and psychologists (is there really a difference?) cultivate these states (explicitly in Surrealism) in order to break things down .., the real work is in the reintegration - putting the pieces back together. That seems to require human poise and intelligence to have a good outcome (good is arbitrarily defined of course)
The positive effects of Psilocybin lie partially in set & setting ... intelligence agencies have used ASCs to break minds down and put them back together in other, less therapeutic ways: using sleep interruption, drugs, water boarding, standing up for days at a time, interrogation and purely "mental" tactics ... a kind of inverted psychotherapy ... the question is does a specific molecule or drug produce a consistently positive effect outside this S&S ... it seems unlikely ... I had ECT explained to me in a similar manner one time - also as the brain repairing itself and releasing endorphins and I found 11 other possible explanations as to why ECT "works".
It's even possible to use abusive techniques to generate a positive outcome - see Stockholm Syndrome. Also a person can sit down and take sober stock of their lives and make a change - So I'm wondering where the unique value of ASCs, Tricksters and hallucinogens lies?
We also shouldn't forget that the Trickster's de structuring ways as Hansen says in his book (have you read it?) as well as UFOs, acid trips and other ASCs (to include OOBEs bad NDEs etc et al) often come out detrimental to the experiencer - including suicide - it would seem an ASC could just as well be something one needed "fitness" to survive?
Artists, Shamans and psychologists (is there really a difference?) cultivate these states (explicitly in Surrealism) in order to break things down .., the real work is in the reintegration - putting the pieces back together. That seems to require human poise and intelligence to have a good outcome (good is arbitrarily defined of course)
The positive effects of Psilocybin lie partially in set & setting ... intelligence agencies have used ASCs to break minds down and put them back together in other, less therapeutic ways: using sleep interruption, drugs, water boarding, standing up for days at a time, interrogation and purely "mental" tactics ... a kind of inverted psychotherapy ... the question is does a specific molecule or drug produce a consistently positive effect outside this S&S ... it seems unlikely ... I had ECT explained to me in a similar manner one time - also as the brain repairing itself and releasing endorphins and I found 11 other possible explanations as to why ECT "works".
It's even possible to use abusive techniques to generate a positive outcome - see Stockholm Syndrome. Also a person can sit down and take sober stock of their lives and make a change - So I'm wondering where the unique value of ASCs, Tricksters and hallucinogens lies?
We also shouldn't forget that the Trickster's de structuring ways as Hansen says in his book (have you read it?) as well as UFOs, acid trips and other ASCs (to include OOBEs bad NDEs etc et al) often come out detrimental to the experiencer - including suicide - it would seem an ASC could just as well be something one needed "fitness" to survive?
S
smcder
Guest
@Soupie
In a great big "duh" moment it occurs that mental illness can include ASC - depression changes one's view of the world (in mild cases it results in a more realistic view of the world ... so is mild depression "adaptive"? ;-) ... yet in these cases the capacity for ASC (which is clearly not one simple quality of the mind to have or have not) isn't adaptive ... is a threat to the organisms very survival.
But clearly having the right spontaneous ASC at the right time and the right place and interpreting it "correctly" with human intelligence and imagination (not to mention humor) ... sure, that could be adaptive ... the way any good, human response to the environment (internal or external) could be adaptive.
In a great big "duh" moment it occurs that mental illness can include ASC - depression changes one's view of the world (in mild cases it results in a more realistic view of the world ... so is mild depression "adaptive"? ;-) ... yet in these cases the capacity for ASC (which is clearly not one simple quality of the mind to have or have not) isn't adaptive ... is a threat to the organisms very survival.
But clearly having the right spontaneous ASC at the right time and the right place and interpreting it "correctly" with human intelligence and imagination (not to mention humor) ... sure, that could be adaptive ... the way any good, human response to the environment (internal or external) could be adaptive.
S
smcder
Guest
@Soupie said
"By spontaneous, I simply mean that theindividual did not purposefully induce the ASC.
If we think of dreaming as the ultimate, non-induced ASC, then it doesn't seem that they are necessarily triggered by stress or cognitive conflict.
Im curious about Strassman's book about (spontaneous?) prophetic states of consciousness and what their onset might be."
Then just SAY that! ;-) I would argue dreaming is a response to daily stress and "cognitive conflict " (?) ... It appears we may need new terminology as most ASCs are perfectly normal, even every day occurrences ... perhaps RASC for Radically Altered ... ?
Incidentally I had a spontaneous RASC myself a few nights ago - very similar to LSD/mescaline descriptions with CEVs and a strong sense of ego dissolution.
"By spontaneous, I simply mean that theindividual did not purposefully induce the ASC.
If we think of dreaming as the ultimate, non-induced ASC, then it doesn't seem that they are necessarily triggered by stress or cognitive conflict.
Im curious about Strassman's book about (spontaneous?) prophetic states of consciousness and what their onset might be."
Then just SAY that! ;-) I would argue dreaming is a response to daily stress and "cognitive conflict " (?) ... It appears we may need new terminology as most ASCs are perfectly normal, even every day occurrences ... perhaps RASC for Radically Altered ... ?
Incidentally I had a spontaneous RASC myself a few nights ago - very similar to LSD/mescaline descriptions with CEVs and a strong sense of ego dissolution.
Hi Steve. I might have missed a post you're referring to here re the SPR. I spent a year reading the SPR archives and am always interested in references to their work. Can you point me to a reference I've missed? Thanks.
S
smcder
Guest
Hi Steve. I might have missed a post you're referring to here re the SPR. I spent a year reading the SPR archives and am always interested in references to their work. Can you point me to a reference I've missed? Thanks.
I never know how to link a post on another thread but it's Soupie's last post on the BS thread. He uses SPR's work to support a point on hallucination.
boomerang
Paranormal Adept
This is close to our definition of a "seer" and typical of many of history's great minds. As a matter of fact, I would include Nikola Tesla in this category. Fitness selection works at the group as well as the individual level. Perhaps tribes and nations possessing such creative mystics have advanced culturally at a faster rate than those in which they have not been tolerated.
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