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The below is the statement I was referring to:Actually, what I said is that we cannot understand what experience is without attending to it, becoming aware of it, and describing it phenomenologically as experience.
The below is the statement I was referring to:
Constance said: "The informational and neuroscientific models you have supported seem to represent 'experience' in non-experiential terms -- as connections of some kind produced outside of consciousness and experience that create an illusion of conscious being-in-the world/the local natural and cultural environment in which each individual finds himself/herself situated in specific ways. These models might claim that experience can be explained merely as a representation that one lives and acts in an intimate felt and thought relationship with the world, but that is an empty claim until it's proved to be the case.
Against such models we all sense, think, and live the recognition of our actual 'being-in-the-world' as experienced moment by moment, day by day, in circumstances sometimes static and more often changing, and on the basis of which we recognize the demands of finding a legitimate epistemology and a valid ontology."
As per the recent topic of discussion, any model that explains the origin of consciousness as an emergent phenomenon within what-is will needs explain it as emerging from "connections of some kind produced outside of consciousness and experience."
Furthermore, against any such emergent model we will "all sense, think, and live the recognition of our actual 'being-in-the-world' as experienced moment by moment, day by day..."
Why am I saying any of this? Its not to pick a fight with you or argue for the sake of argument. Weve all been at this discussion for two years. I am confused by your approach and thus your rejection of approaches Ive wanted to discuss.
You feel that consciousness emerged from non-conscious, natural processes, but it appears to me that you balk at any and all models that merely explore such processes.
As I think @Michael Allen has explicated so clearly—and you appear to generally agree with—not only will we need to check our human-centric language and questions that weve constructed out of the experience of our being in order to explain being, it seems its an impossible task.
Any attempt to model the preconditions of being will require using terms/concepts (language) that is non-experiential (in as much as any concepts we can conceive can be said to be non-experiential).
If the materialist are right, then experience is merely folk pyschology, and things like the self, agency/free will, and mental causation are illusions.
If the dualists are right, then physical causal closure, matter, and cause and effect are illusions.
If the idealists are right, other minds and an external what-is are illusions.
You were arguing that informational or neurobiological approaches to consciousness cannot be correct because "against such models" we have our experiences of the world. Ie, those models cannot be correct because, presumably, our experiences don't feel like information or neurological processes.Yes, we want to understand the means by which consciousness emerges in living beings.
I'm not clear on your meaning in that last sentence, which seems to quote something I wrote toward the end but which is contextualized by what you write in the first clause ['against any such emergent model']. Can you make your point more directly?
It's as you say. We must be careful not to reify our experience of being. We mustn't assume the preconditions of being are similar to the preconditions of a ham sandwich.On the contrary, I welcome research clarifying the biological and physical processes that enable the evolution of consciousness, such as that by Jaak Panksepp and his colleagues in affective neuroscience
.
Not sure what you mean by "checking our human-centric language and questions that we've constructed out of the experience of our being." I suspect that what @Michael Allen meant is that we need to be aware of our tendencies to reify the concepts and terms we use in discussing consciousness, but I'll leave that for him to clarify.
I don't know how we can discuss being, experience, consciousness, or concepts without using the language we have to work with. Languages develop in the first place out of the need to communicate within shared experiential situations. I think you recognize this given your parenthetical addition to that last sentence.
The point I am making is that if one believes that consciousness emerged from non-conscious processes—as you do—then whatever those processes turn out to be, whether quantum, molecular, cellular (neuronal), or computational, our experiences will not "feel like" those processes.
Whichever natural processes turn out to be preconditions for consciousness, they will not "feel like" experience due to the fact that they are outside of consciousness.
It's as you say. We must be careful not to reify our experience of being. We mustn't assume the preconditions of being are similar to the preconditions of a ham sandwich.
Here is an example of ancient rock art in Nevada, estimated in age at 10,000 BP. It expresses, in my opinion, the directness and intimacy with which early humans observed natural forms (plant and animal) and reproduced their detailed surfaces in an attempt to comprehend (as well as, I think, to celebrate aesthetically) the structure of phenomenal appearances of things in the environment/world in which they found themselves living. This is an instance of what MP referred to as the way in which living creatures "sing the world."
http://media.npr.org/assets/img/201...-700fcd62467fe2a3c1621531aee11ccd91c29887.jpg
The comment wasn't directed at phenomenological philosophy. Just underlining the fact that our experience-based concepts may be useless in modeling the preconditions of consciousness.?? If you think that's an apt metaphor for the emergence of consciousness in phenomenological philosophy and research, you do need quite desperately to obtain an education in what phenomenology brings to consciousness studies. Of course you might continue to choose not to do that, but without your doing so it becomes virtually impossible to continue a meaningful dialogue with you.
@ConstanceConsciousness, in my view, emerges and evolves from evolving processes in nature that enable the increasing sense of a being's openness and presence in its environmental setting. Being-in-the world in presence to things encountered phenomenally is the other essential precondition for the emergence of consciousness which begins in pre-reflective experience. As Husserl argued: 'No things without consciousess; no consciousness without things'.
Please read Panksepp and Legrand and also the major phenomenological philosophers in order to have your categorical thinking broken down. Legrand in particular addresses the question to what extent autonomic and subliminal processes in the body might be sensed, felt, to some degree on the path toward a being's experiential sense of being-in-the-world, having a 'world' to become acquainted with.
@Constance
I think @Soupie has been zoning in on a valid query regarding your stance.
You say, "Consciousness, in my view, emerges and evolves from evolving processes in nature that enable the increasing sense of a being's openness and presence in its environmental setting. Being-in-the world in presence to things encountered phenomenally is the other essential precondition for the emergence of consciousness which begins in pre-reflective experience."
I don't think it is important to anwer this question necessarily, but I am curious about your view. I have a sense from what you say that "Being" pre-exists consciousness and prereflexivity: that evolution "enables" Being to emerge into-the-world. This is an area I thought H was going to tackle in B&T and where I was left disappointed.
What I want to know is something about Being: what it is before it is in the world.
Is your stance inevitably antiphysicalist, dualist...? Or would you argue otherwise? or would you not care to address the question because it is not a) important or relevant, b) answerable, c) "knowable" etc?
@ConstanceHow much of Being and Time did you read? One really needs to read all of that work and many subsequent shorter works of Heidegger to understand his philosophy of being and existence. When we discussed B&T a year or so ago I suggested that newcomers to phenomenology simultaneously read the following guide to the work by my mentor:
Eugene F. Kaelin, Being and Time: A Reading for Readers
Being and Time presents not just Heidegger's thought but an overview of the history of philosophical approaches to being/Being. For a short overview of this context, the wikipedia entry at this link is helpful:
Being - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Re your take on my 'approach' above --
"I have a sense from what you say that "Being" pre-exists consciousness and prereflexivity: that evolution "enables" Being to emerge into-the-world.",
it's partially correct. Being is the Whole within which be-ing such as that which we experience takes place. Being as the whole of 'what-is' evidently 'pre-exists' the evolution of consciousness in the world we know, but what emerges with consciousness is the capability of thinking about both our being and Being as a whole. Which leaves us with the primary question we have been discussing in this thread: how consciousness arises in 'what-is' {how awareness of our being arises in 'Being' and enables us to ask the question about Being beginning with our experience of being in the physically evolved world in which we find ourselves existing}. To understand the nature of the things that are as we encounter them phenomenally, we need also to understand the nature of the consciousness -- phenomenal, prereflective, and reflective -- by which we experience them and ourselves in experiencing existence in the world.
Philosophers since the pre-Socratics in the west and the ancient philosophers of the east have attempted to understand what Being is. Phenomenologists since the late 19th century have realized that our only avenue toward postulating the nature of Being as a whole is through analysis of our own experience of being-in-the-world. This means analyzing to the extent we can all of the aspects of our lived experience here and now. To know something, much less everything, about Being as a whole requires a God's eye view that we obviously do not possess. Phenomenological existentialism expresses that which we can know about being-in-the-world as we exist in it and think about it. It defines the epistemology we have to work with and in Merleau-Ponty arrives at a phenomenological ontology (to appreciate which requires reading MP's later thought concerning our chiasmic relationship with nature).
I follow the insights of phenomenological philosophy (from Husserl and Heidegger through Sartre and ultimately Merleau-Ponty), all of which overcome dualism. To see why it is necessary to read the works of these philosophers. Physicalism/materialism/objectivism cannot account for experience, consciousness, and mind because they do not recognize the essential nature of the subjectivity that we bring to everything we experience.