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Consciousness and the Paranormal

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Hm, my intuition is that we can. For one, I personally believe [some] organisms can feel but not think - create/manipulate symbols. Thus, I think feeling and thinking are distinct mental abilities. Second, I think for most of us, separating thinking and feeling is not possible, but some - such as yogis - can do so via much practice.

I think your second statement (italicized) is correct and that it's correct because it recognizes the deeply integrated nature of consciousness and the world as we experience it in both feeling and thinking. I don't know in detail what yogis can accomplish, but my sense is that the deep inner states of something close to 'nothingness' reached in deep meditation involve the dissolution of the palpable world in the yogi's mind and of the self with which he/she has apprehended it, no doubt producing a peace that passes understanding and also perhaps an incomparable sense of the being of the world at its ultimate minimal 'graininess', beyond the differentiation of things and perspectives on things. This is not a state of mind/recognition that I have ever personally desired or yet sought, being enchanted all my life by the phenomenal appearances, sounds, textures, feelings, and expressions of innumerable other humans and also innumerable other forms of life, other forms of consciousnesses, that populate the natural world and find fulfillment in their experience of it.

We also find in the phenomenal world we humans experience a spectrum of cultural responses to it, ranging from those that are further reason for celebration of existence, others from which we shrink in terror and despair. The world we live in is thickly sedimented with meanings (positive and negative) generated by our species at its best and worst, and it is at times an arduous and painful place for every existent [and, most tragically, for many members of our species it is a blighted place]. I don't wonder that many people in many places find relief in practices such as those of the yogis, which certainly require an immense discipline and likely provide unique rewards. That path is not for me, though, since as I see it and feel it, this world (the earth world) is the place of our being and becoming in this life.

As to a hard distinction between feeling and thinking, I don't think this is possible for human existents. We begin our experience here at the level of feeling; it is what enables our connection with others and our environment, out of which our thinking begins to emerge. Child psychologists have theorized that even children in their first year of life develop a 'theory of mind' enabling them to adjust their own behaviors and expectations to those these sense in their caregivers. Children choose the peers that become their best friends out of the rapport they sense forming with certain others, and this is surely something learned at the level of feeling. Why do we choose the fields we specialize in farther along in our education? Why do certain subjects draw us toward them, make us happy in their pursuit despite the hard work they require? Why do we gravitate to one philosophical approach rather than another? It's partly the influence of those around us, especially our parents, and partly encouragement from certain of our teachers who recruit us to their fields. But I've known a number of people who later realized that they found no personal satisfaction in the subjects they'd devoted their lives to and made radical changes in career or just in what they devoted themselves to 'on the side'.

In one of his major poems, W. Stevens writes:

“... Suppose these houses are composed of ourselves,
So that they become an impalpable town, full of Impalpable bells, transparencies of sound.

Sounding in transparent dwellings of the self,
Impalpable habitations that seem to move
In the movement of the colors of the mind.

Confused illuminations and sonorities,
So much ourselves, we cannot tell apart
the idea and bearer-being of
the idea....”

I think with Stevens that our ideas are borne into our minds by the "bearer-being" of those ideas in our lived experience, which is both emotional and intellectual, grounded in what we feel as well as think. Here is an interesting short essay/talk by a sculptor named Timothy Segar who is discussing what he is doing in his artwork, what he attempts to show in it, contextualized in his reading of the long poem I just quoted from. He gets at how much of what we think emerges from our prereflective as well as our reflective consciousness of the phenomenal world we inhabit and which we attempt, in innumerable ways, to bring to expression for others.

FORGOT to add the link to Segar's talk:

”Reality and the Nature of Perception in Wallace Stevens’ ‘An Ordinary Evening in New Haven,’” « Timothy J. Segar
 
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Soupie wrote: "I still think consciousness is directly contingent on physical organisms/brains, and I still think the mind is essentially uniquely integrated information."

So far as we know on earth, consciousness seems to require a physical body and a brain, but neither of those explains consciousness. Re: the mind being "essentially uniquely integrated information," do you think that information is received by the brain in bits and bytes directly from the quantum foam?
 
@Constance - I would definitely encourage an exploration of meditation ... there are many types but simple mindfulness of breath seems to underlie or be the gateway to most ... I don't think these states are life denying - I know my own emotional life is richer I think for a greater awareness. I'm less irritable and spendore time in positive states.

dukka or suffering is the first noble truth but it may better be translated as "stress" and there is talk of escape into the four jhanas but the Buddha told his monks to tell others they were addicted to these states of mind because he saw them as ultimately self limiting and beneficial leading to enlightenment

In meditation we are encouraged to turn to to painful states as well as positive ones - not to discriminate or prefer one experience but to cultivate equanimity. clinging to sensual pleasure is the source of dukka not the pleasure itself.

nirvana may be the ultimate state of cool minded ness but I grow more convinced that what ceases is struggle not participation in experience (see Robert Thurman - Umas dad - for an exuberant take on Buddhism ) I think of it as being in "flow" with exactly what is ... and I think that's how I resolve Nietzsche's eternal recurrence with Buddhism!

nirvana is samsara



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@Soupie:

Ha! I think of the "primal units" of our mental stream of consciousness as "bits" of integrated information. I can't conceive of anything as complex as a stream of consciousness not being composed of simpler building blocks.

... the sense of humor I think may be more helpful than we think here - it may be essential. it tells us we are well adjusted to reality, healthy - sane, ... but it might be a philosophical tool ... Nietzsche wrote about a philosophy of jokes (only I can't find it ...) but said he wasn't strong enough for it ... what if the answer to the hard problem is a punch line , maybe the punch line? and is really really funny so that ever after discovering it, we can't stop laughing? maybe it's not that we're not smart enough / maybe were not funny enough ...


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Soupie wrote: "Unlike mass/gravity, phenomenal consciousness seems to require more than simple accumulation to have an effect, but perhaps not. I like to think that phenomenal consciousness is contingent on something like integrated information that can only be generated by physical systems such as brains . . . ."

We begin in phenomenal consciousness of the world surrounding us locally, which we apprehend both prereflectively and reflectively. We 'make sense' of what we see, hear, feel, and think all along the way (MP). We continually gather and integrate information about both the environment and the self within our own developing minds and with the aid of other minds, interpersonally and through the major disciplines and texts produced in the history of our civilization. All the while we continue to live in continuous conscious presence and openness to phenomena, natural and cultural, that surround us and bear on our lives, phenomena emerging in time and living in change as we do. How and where does your premise come into play -- i.e.,

"that phenomenal consciousness is contingent on something like integrated information that can only be generated by physical systems such as brains"?

What is the point in ordinary human development at which you suppose the physical brain becomes fully enough organized that it begins to generate integrated information that 'enables phenomenal consciousness' ? And what is the source of the information the brain suddenly 'integrates', enabling us to see and smell and touch the phenomenal world we live in, even as infants? Is the source the 'quantum foam'? Can you clarify your theory? [edited slightly]
 
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If someone posts a video in a forum but no one is around to see it—

Yes. :)

good! it showed some weird icon on mine .., you will see where Uma gets her theatricality


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@Constance - I would definitely encourage an exploration of meditation ... there are many types but simple mindfulness of breath seems to underlie or be the gateway to most ... I don't think these states are life denying - I know my own emotional life is richer I think for a greater awareness. I'm less irritable and spendore time in positive states.

dukka or suffering is the first noble truth but it may better be translated as "stress" and there is talk of escape into the four jhanas but the Buddha told his monks to tell others they were addicted to these states of mind because he saw them as ultimately self limiting and beneficial leading to enlightenment

In meditation we are encouraged to turn to to painful states as well as positive ones - not to discriminate or prefer one experience but to cultivate equanimity. clinging to sensual pleasure is the source of dukka not the pleasure itself.

nirvana may be the ultimate state of cool minded ness but I grow more convinced that what ceases is struggle not participation in experience (see Robert Thurman - Umas dad - for an exuberant take on Buddhism ) I think of it as being in "flow" with exactly what is ... and I think that's how I resolve Nietzsche's eternal recurrence with Buddhism!

nirvana is samsara

But at this point in my life I'm not suffering, Steve. Nor am I stressed, angry, struggling with anything or any one in my life, past or present. I'm the most positive person in my company of friends. Some might say 'too cheerful'. My sister, for example, thinks so. In fact I recently sent her a book on meditation since she really could use a release from the level of stress and general discomfort she carries around with her.

For most of my life I became extremely angry and stressed over outrages and injustices committed around the planet (and for years I was an activist in many causes). These days I do not subject myself to reviewing the outrages and injustices reported continually on cable news. I am and have always been an empath, and have in recent years had to produce a zone of not-knowing about many heartbreaking events and conditions suffered by humans and animals on this planet in order to maintain peace of mind and heart -- equanimity, I guess. I had to because reading about even one case of human or animal abuse, terror, starvation, sickness and neglect would invariably open for me the mental spectacle of the extent of the innumerable others enduring the same situations. I support those I can support, emotionally and financially. But I can't live with a broken heart.
 
But at this point in my life I'm not suffering, Steve. Nor am I stressed, angry, struggling with anything or any one in my life, past or present. I'm the most positive person in my company of friends. Some might say 'too cheerful'. My sister, for example, thinks so. In fact I recently sent her a book on meditation since she really could use a release from the level of stress and general discomfort she carries around with her.

For most of my life I became extremely angry and stressed over outrages and injustices committed around the planet (and for years I was an activist in many causes). These days I do not subject myself to reviewing the outrages and injustices reported continually on cable news. I am and have always been an empath, and have in recent years had to produce a zone of not-knowing about many heartbreaking events and conditions suffered by humans and animals on this planet in order to maintain peace of mind and heart -- equanimity, I guess. I had to because reading about even one case of human or animal abuse, terror, starvation, sickness and neglect would invariably open for me the mental spectacle of the extent of the innumerable others enduring the same situations. I support those I can support, emotionally and financially. But I can't live with a broken heart.

I can relate to some of this as I always been empathic ... My mother and I have talked about this from my childhood ... she is extremely intuitive, working as a therapist and pastoral counselor and we have both struggled with extreme sensitivity to others.

I spent nearly a year in relative isolation after working with the mentally ill and their families - but recently meditation has provided a space for me to join the suffering (my own and others) and release it ... a way to deeply and truly feel and yet let go and have peace through Tonglen practice.

if you are in a good place I would expect meditation would enhance this ... it could bring out any residual neurosis ... many go through a rough spell before things even out but you may have already worked through that.

no matter where one is ... breath meditation and jhanna practice can be extremely pleasant ... and I would still recommend it as a way of investigating the mind - I think there is a real connection with phenomenological investigation ...

have a listen to Thurman if you have time ... he is not quite as exuberant as in other videos. ... his humor and energy are infectious !




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Here's the link to the sculptor Segar's talk/essay concerning what he attempts to do in his work, which I forgot to add several posts back:

”Reality and the Nature of Perception in Wallace Stevens’ ‘An Ordinary Evening in New Haven,’” « Timothy J. Segar

On another page at the artist's website, the first few paragraphs of his Artist's Statement:

"My work in sculpture is based in the investment of form with identity and character. I am concerned with evoking the posture, the lean, the physical presence, of figures, of living forms as well as that of buildings and machines. I have an enduring fascination with the edge of my pieces as it both opens and closes the form. I’m after a core of animate expression that stirs in the viewer a sense that they are being reflected.

I am involved in both single pieces and groupings. I have been interested in how several sculptures can go together to make up an entity which is distinct from the individuals that make up the group. I continue to work for the autonomy of each piece while finding its place within a group. These groupings are not so much installations as theaters of actors whose settings change with each showing. The viewer is asked to supply a great deal. The theatrical moment that I work for should not be thought of as clearly defining a particular narrative of human activity. Rather I hope it contains many moments, a collection of dramas. The viewer is asked to bring his or her own story and find it there."
 
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the vulgate of experience ... !

I just remembered too - in this artists talk of courage:

"Stevens places great emphasis on the power of the imagination to fix and define what we call real and in this I have found resonance, even courage."

... something about living with a broken heart, the "genuine heart of sadness" Pema Chodron calls it

"An analogy for bodhichitta is the rawness of a broken heart. Sometimes this broken heart gives birth to anxiety and panic, sometimes to anger, resentment, and blame. But under the hardness of that armor there is the tenderness of genuine sadness. This is our link with all those who have ever loved. This genuine heart of sadness can teach us great compassion. It can humble us when we’re arrogant and soften us when we are unkind. It awakens us when we prefer to sleep and pierces through our indifference. This continual ache of the heart is a blessing that when accepted fully can be shared with all.”

I've found under my anger and resentment, under my demands that the world be some other way ... a deep sadness. but this sadness too needs awareness and to be given space. it's a hard practice -



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I can relate to some of this as I always been empathic ... My mother and I have talked about this from my childhood ... she is extremely intuitive, working as a therapist and pastoral counselor and we have both struggled with extreme sensitivity to others.

I spent nearly a year in relative isolation after working with the mentally ill and their families - but recently meditation has provided a space for me to join the suffering (my own and others) and release it ... a way to deeply and truly feel and yet let go and have peace through Tonglen practice.

if you are in a good place I would expect meditation would enhance this ... it could bring out any residual neurosis ... many go through a rough spell before things even out but you may have already worked through that.

Thanks Steve. I am in a good place and don't feel the need for the practice. I also don't want to spend the time on it that it would require.

no matter where one is ... breath meditation and jhanna practice can be extremely pleasant ... and I would still recommend it as a way of investigating the mind - I think there is a real connection with phenomenological investigation ...

I'd be interested in what you have to say about that connection.
 
I mentioned the book on Rilke the other day ... it has poems on Rodins work (mentioned in the sculpture's talk) ... more synchronicity! :-)


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Thanks Steve. I am in a good place and don't feel the need for the practice. I also don't want to spend the time on it that it would require.



I'd be interested in what you have to say about that connection.

investigation is a quality of
mind - an openness, a friendliness to what arises in the mind ... you can take any object, anything that arises in the mind - or even the arising of things in the mind as the point of meditation ... mindfulness is simply holding something in mind and when the attention drifts ... you bring it gently back, training the mind to stay until it slowly sees through what is being examined. I take this as what Arthur Zajonc talks about in bringing mindfulness to any area of study. we can do this with philosophical thinking ... analytical meditation takes a single idea and looks at it from all angles with every tool at our disposal. ... when an insight is obtained ... one stabilizes by holding that insight in place - again bringing the mind back each time it wonders ... then we go back to analytical efforts



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"The path to the attainment of this perspective is a species of meditation, requiring rigorous, persistent effort and is no mere mental exercise. It is a species of meditation because, unlike ordinary meditation, which involves only the mind, this more radical form requires the participation of the entire individual and initially brings about a radical transformation of the individual performing it similar to a religious conversion. Husserl discovered the need for such a regimen once it became clear to him that the foundation upon which scientific inquiry rested was compromised by the very framework of science itself and the psychological assumptions of the scientist; the phenomenological reduction is the technique whereby the phenomenologist puts him or herself in a position to provide adequately rigorous grounds for scientific or any other kind of inquiry."

the first part of this article discusses "astonishment" and that is an effect if meditation as I've experienced - in so far as I can understand this - I do disagree with the description of ordinary "meditation" - as involving only the mind - as I understand it, meditation requires the whole person, the whole heart - and it changes the person - but I don't know what the authors definition of meditation is here ... or if what they say is accurate about phenomenlogical reduction ... on the phenomenological side I'm out of my depth but I do think there is something very interesting going on


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let me know if you think this is a good article on the reduction ... it makes a lot of sense to me ... does that make sense where they compare it to a species if meditation?


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both meditation and psychedelic agents have been described as having a de-conditioning effect like this:

Husserl’s insight is that we live our lives in what he terms a “captivation-in-an-acceptedness;” that is to say, we live our lives in an unquestioning sort of way by being wholly taken up in the unbroken belief-performance of our customary life in the world. We take for granted our bodies, the culture, gravity, our everyday language, logic and a myriad other facets of our existence. All of this together is present to every individual in every moment and makes up what Fink terms “ human immanence ”; everyone accepts it and this acceptance is what keeps us in captivity. The epoché is a procedure whereby we no longer accept it. Hence, Fink notes in Sixth Cartesian Meditation : “This self consciousness develops in that the onlooker that comes to himself in the epoché reduces ‘bracketed’ human immanence by explicit inquiry back behind the acceptednesses in self-apperception that hold regarding humanness, that is, regarding one’s belonging to the world; and thus he lays bare transcendental experiential life and the transcendental having of the world” (p.40). Husserl has referred to this variously as “bracketing” or “putting out of action” but it boils down to the same thing, we must somehow come to see ourselves as no longer of this world, where “this world” means to capture all that we currently accept.

... and then this on withdrawal of belief vs denial of the world ... this is akin to what I'm beginning to see in Buddhism ... not sure it hinges on the same thing exactly ..,

At this point it may prove prudent to head off some possible misunderstandings with respect to the epoché. Perhaps the most frequent error made with respect to the epoché is made in regards to its role in the abstention of belief in the world. Here it is important to realize two things: the first is that withdrawal of belief in the world is not a denial of the world. It should not be considered that the abstention of belief in the world’s existence is the same as the denial of its existence; indeed, the whole point of the epoché is that it is neither an affirmation nor a denial in the existence of the world. In fact, says Fink, “the misunderstanding that takes the phenomenological epoché to be a straightforwardly thematic abstention from belief (instead of understanding it as transcendentally reflective! ) not only has the consequence that we believe we have to fear the loss of the thematic field, but is also intimately connected with a misunderstanding of the reductive return to constituting consciousness” (p.43 ). The second thing has to do with who it is that is doing the abstaining and this directly concerns the moment of the reduction proper.

and this:

Thus, it is by means of the epoché and reduction proper that the human I becomes distinguished from the constituting I; it is by abandoning our acceptance of the world that we are enabled to see it as captivating and hold it as a theme. It is from this perspective that the phenomenologist is able to see the world without the framework of science or the psychological assumptions of the individual.

... seems very much like the direct perception of the world emphasized in Zen ... the direct pointing to reality past the psychological assumptions ... maybe it's a misunderstanding of terminology ...

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Buddhism and Western Philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Phenomenology and Existentialism

Merleau-Ponty's phenomenology has been said to be similar to Zen Buddhism and Madhyamaka in that they all hold to the interconnection of the self, body and the world (the "lifeworld"). The unity of body and mind (shēnxīn, 身心) expressed by the Buddhism of Dogen and Zhanran and Merleau-Ponty's view of the corporeity of consciousness seem to be in agreement. They both hold that the conscious mind is inherently connected to the body and the external world and that the lifeworld is experienced dynamically through the body, denying any independent Cartesian Cogito.[34]

and there is a comparison to abhidhamma ... which is something that keeps coming up for me in my reading -



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