COVID-19 News

[Randall]

People are getting infected and dying of COVID-19 when three different effective vaccines are available in the U.S..

If a person never gets infected, then vaccinating them is more risky than just leaving them alone. If an unvaccinated person gets infected, unless they're really old or have something else wrong with them, their likelihood of dying from COVID or even being hospitalized is exceedingly small. That much we also know for sure. None of that is "misinformation".

It also looks like those more vulnerable to serious COVID illness, are also more vulnerable to serious vaccine side-effects, which makes perfect sense because of the way the vaccines work. Plus we didn't know all the vaccine's short-term side-effects, and still know nothing about the long-term side effects. That isn't "misinformation" either. We've taken the vaccines largely on faith that what we know so-far is enough. I'm not so confident.

So now all that's left is to have a mature understanding about the fact that people die all the time from various things that society doesn't get nearly as hysterical about, and those things are being swept under the rug, and even silenced by these media platform censors. I was banned myself from CFI for posting an article about the rise in suicides, loss of livelihoods, and other contributing factors to mortality caused by pandemic management. None of it was "fake news" — none. Plus I was personally maligned on top of it.

Many are being hoodwinked by fake news online in social networks and such. So how do you combat that and help these people?

What I like about your attitude is your last three words above, "help these people". I'm sure we're on the same page there. But we have two different perspectives. I would say we can help people more by making sure they have jobs so they can take care of themselves and their families, and to that end make sure they aren't discriminated against by germaphobes who fear the unvaccinated.

Instead of going down the path to creating regulations against the unvaccinated, we should be regulating protection from discrimination, and ensuring that all healthy people regardless of their vaccination status are given every opportunity to be employed and educated. That is likely to improve their quality of life far more than any vaccine.

You can't force them, but at least try to see that they know the facts before they decide.

The problem with the "facts" is that what we were told is factual has been changing, and now we're left with vague generalizations that assume that the billions spent on vaccinations and trillions lost to pandemic management, were the best solution. The only "facts" are that billions were spent, trillions have been lost, and many otherwise healthy people have suffered greatly.

Whether we're all going to be better-off for it is debatable. In the end, it could still turn-out that supporting the pandemic management strategies that have gone down so far was as harmful ( or more harmful ) to society in general than the virus itself. These numbers still need to be assessed, but there are bureaucratic and social barriers preventing those who would like to get that data from getting it and studying it.

Part of that is because unless the data supports the mainstream agenda, it's being deemed as "fake news", removed from access, and then lumped in with the "out there" fringe element and conspiracy theorists. To me, this is very concerning. I'm not saying that there is no misinformation, and I don't doubt that there are those who have decided not to get the vaccine because of misinformation, however I also doubt that everyone who decides not to get vaccinated is a victim of fake news.

How do we get through to those who are a victim of the fake news, and would be amenable to getting a vaccination if they were as aware of the situation as someone who is better informed? I don't know. I'm probably better informed about the variables and the science than the majority of people, and that's why I don't want the vaccine anywhere near me.

So it's a tough question. I'm willing to take my chances and if I happen to get infected and die, I'm perfectly okay with having made that choice. Other people have to make the same choice for themselves. I'm not going to be the one to tell them what they have to do, and certainly wouldn't impose sanctions on them if they didn't agree with me.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Let's try this again, depending on the location in the U.S., as high as 99% or more of those infected with COVID-19 and being hospitalized and those who are dying of the disease are not vaccinated.

The more people infected, the higher the probability that alternate strains are going to develop, some of which the vaccines may not be quite as effective against.

It's not a tough question.

 

[henris42]

Here in Europe its near impossible to get those statistics, but there is no reason to think its any different here.

Still, goverments are now reacting to the delta variant like no vaccines were ever given - new restrictions talks. That makes zero sense, as population (and especially the elderly and sick) have been vaccinated its now time to start opening up. Especially the number of people in hospitals has not exploded - the official reason for all restrictions was capacity of health care.

<folio>I always have this theory, that there is some powerful element that benefits from these restrictions financially. That is is the main reason for reluctance to re-open societies.</folio>

 

[Randall]

Let's try this again, depending on the location in the U.S., as high as 99% or more of those infected with COVID-19 and being hospitalized and those who are dying of the disease are not vaccinated.

And none of those who are healthy and not vaccinated are in hospitals, and may never be infected with COVID or end-up in a hospital with COVID or any of its variants, yet they are being discriminated against, including being denied an education, employment, travel, and other benefits. They are being judged as guilty without having committed any crime.

And if they do end-up in a hospital they will be a small minority of those infected, and will still most probably survive. If they don't, then one might argue they never would have been infected anyway after this amount of time had the "flatten the curve" strategy that dragged the whole thing out not been instituted. That's not "fake news". It is a fact that it was known that the "flatten the curve" strategy would drag the length of the pandemic out. But no, let's blame healthy unvaccinated people who have survived it.

The more people infected, the higher the probability that alternate strains are going to develop, some of which the vaccines may not be quite as effective against.

And if all the money spent on vaccines and lost due to to pandemic management had been spent on better education, healthcare, and care for the nation as a whole, and managed according to the recommendations of the GBD, by now it may very well be the case that the pandemic would have run its course, fewer people would have died of the disease, no new variants would have had the time to emerge, millions of people would have been spared unemployment, hundreds of thousands of businesses would not have been lost, and the nation would be stronger than ever.

It's not a tough question.

Maybe not for the simple-minded, or those who don't question the mainstream agenda. I don't fit into either of those categories. I'm not saying you do, but your perspective is narrowly focused. From that frame of reference, I can see how it appears to make sense. In contrast I look at the wider issues including the past, present, and future ramifications, against the backdrop of human rights. You are clearly not doing that, so your perspective will be correspondingly different.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

And none of those who are healthy and not vaccinated are in hospitals, and may never be infected with COVID or end-up in a hospital with COVID or any of its variants, yet they are being discriminated against, including being denied an education, employment, travel, and other benefits. They are being judged as guilty without having committed any crime.

Schools will not admit students who are not vaccinated. That's been true for decades.

As it stands, in the U.S., the people being infected, being hospitalized, and are dying, are mainly those who haven't vaccinated. To make it partisan, the vast majority of these people are Republicans and their families, because Republicans are those most against the vaccine. So in a sense, it's become a Republican disease.

By the same token, we shouldn't take the polio vaccine because not everyone is going to be infected. And only a few will be, such as my old friend, the late Yonah Fortner, a fascinating figure from the early UFO era.

But to bring it current, say you are infected by COVID-19 and thus infect people close to you, one or more of whom is hospitalized on a ventilator or whom, after recovering from the disease, suffers long-term effects such as loss of smell or taste (such as my ex-brother-in-law) or chronic fatigue. Would you feel any sense of responsibility, that if you'd taken the vaccine, none of that would have happened?

 

[Randall]

Schools will not admit students who are not vaccinated. That's been true for decades.

I don't agree that just because it's been done for decades, that it's neccesarily the right thing to do.

As it stands, in the U.S., the people being infected, being hospitalized, and are dying, are mainly those who haven't vaccinated. To make it partisan, the vast majority of these people are Republicans and their families, because Republicans are those most against the vaccine. So in a sense, it's become a Republican disease.

Interesting statistic. Where did it come from? I wasn't aware that hospitals were including people's political affiliations on their medical charts.

By the same token, we shouldn't take the polio vaccine because not everyone is going to be infected. And only a few will be, such as my old friend, the late Yonah Fortner, a fascinating figure from the early UFO era.

Right now in Africa, it's the polio vaccine that's causing polio due to a mutation. It sounds like a conspiracy theory, but it's not.

Africa declared free from wild polio — but vaccine-derived strains remain

No new cases of wild poliovirus have been recorded on the continent since 2016, but other types of the virus persist.

www.nature.com

But to bring it current, say you are infected by COVID-19 and thus infect people close to you, one or more of whom is hospitalized on a ventilator or whom, after recovering from the disease, suffers long-term effects such as loss of smell or taste (such as my ex-brother-in-law) or chronic fatigue. Would you feel any sense of responsibility, that if you'd taken the vaccine, none of that would have happened?

It is really interesting that you brought this up because earlier today I wrote an email to a friend of mine who is on the same wavelength saying that we ought not to be too glib about the coronphobes. I would share the letter with you but it includes personal medical information about my friend. But I'll summarize the content below:

I pointed out that unlike him, I live alone, don't travel, rarely go out, am retired and don't work in a public setting ( like he does ), and don't have kids in the house. Therefore my risk factor for catching COVID is substantially lower than his, and that although he and I agree on virtually everything about the pandemic, I would never forgive myself if something happened to him because I had said something that led to him being hospitalized with COVID. I urged him to stay clear of crowded places for the time being and try to be aware and responsible, without letting the irrational part of the fear get to him.

That being said, the rest of the responsibility is up to him as a mature adult, same as anyone else. I hope that answers your question. Likewise, I wouldn't blame him if something happened to me. Same if either of us caught it from each other. We accept the responsibility for our decisions, and are glad they are our decisions to make, rather than a mandate that is being forced on us.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Interesting statistic. Where did it come from? I wasn't aware that hospitals were including people's political affiliations on their medical charts.

It's a matter of deductive reasoning. Most of the people in the U.S. who won't vaccinate, according to polling, are Republicans. Most of the people getting the disease are unvaccinated. Do the math.

 

[henris42]

Interestingly, the Muslim Haj is now happening second time during COVID. They'll only accept fully vaccinated participants... Last year they had really few people accepted, claiming no infections...

Pilgrims head to Makkah for 2nd pandemic haj | New Straits Times

 

[Randall]

It's a matter of deductive reasoning. Most of the people in the U.S. who won't vaccinate, according to polling, are Republicans. Most of the people getting the disease are unvaccinated. Do the math.

Ah. Someone has done a poll. So do the math indeed. Who did the poll? Where were the results gathered from? For all I know it was done by a pro-democratic sponsor funded by Pfizer in areas where there were high concentrations of Republicans to begin with, and therefore the results would show exactly what you got.

Or maybe not. I don't know. Apparently some mask studies were skewed by pro-mask sponsors who picked arbitrary start and end points that they knew would result in the outcome they wanted. Maybe this is the same sort of data manipulation as part of some anti-Republican campaign.

And then there's the principle that correlation isn't the same as causation, so the stats could be due to other factors. In fact, I'm pretty sure that just being a Republican doesn't cause COVID, and that there are probably lots of Republicans that did get vaccinated.

Regardless, if a Republican makes a choice not to get vaccinated for some wacky reason, and then catches COVID, that's their doing, just like if some Democrat who chooses not to get vaccinated catches it. They're both free to make their own decisions. Personally, I'd rather not catch COVID from either of them, even if the Democratic version is more preferable.

 

[Randall]

Interestingly, the Muslim Haj is now happening second time during COVID. They'll only accept fully vaccinated participants... Last year they had really few people accepted, claiming no infections...

Pilgrims head to Makkah for 2nd pandemic haj | New Straits Times

Quote: "Earlier this month, the hajj ministry said it was working on the "highest levels of health precautions" in light of the pandemic and the emergence of new variants."

Seems to me that the "highest level" there would be Allah. It should be easy for him ( it — whatever ) to do something – no ?

Then again, I can see how the religious sects might think this is all just part of the end times. We started with the pandemic, and then here we got a heat waves, fires broke out in BC, California, and Australia, and then floods in Germany, and now the new Delta variant. An ex-acquaintance of mine once said that the end-times would include the breaking of several "vials" upon the Earth that would cause widespread suffering and destruction. He was big into religion. Don't know whatever happened to him.

 

[henris42]

Or maybe not. I don't know. Apparently some mask studies were skewed by pro-mask sponsors who picked arbitrary start and end points that they knew would result in the outcome they wanted. Maybe this is the same sort of data manipulation as part of some anti-Republican campaign.

Mask studies? Oh my... here they first said that mask are useless. Then, we find out that the reason was that there were not masks available in quantity, so they do this BS. Few months later, masks are the best thing ever invented...

I'm honestly become quite sceptical - although they did some aerosole studies so it can be useful, but only if its good enough quality. Cheap crappy mask is useless.

Other thing is this surface transmission, according studies the probabability is really low (like 1:10000)
Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

So no need to wear gloves.

 

[henris42]

Seems to me that the "highest level" there would be Allah. It should be easy for him ( it — whatever ) to do something – no ?

You can be sure that they will not give out any (edit real statistics what actually happened when its over...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Ah. Someone has done a poll. So do the math indeed. Who did the poll? Where were the results gathered from? For all I know it was done by a pro-democratic sponsor funded by Pfizer in areas where there were high concentrations of Republicans to begin with, and therefore the results would show exactly what you got.

Here's one of a number of polls with similar results:

CNN Poll: About a quarter of adults say they won't try to get a Covid-19 vaccine

With a majority of adult Americans now at least partially vaccinated against coronavirus, roughly a quarter of adults say they will not try to get the shot, according to a new CNN Poll conducted by SSRS. That vaccine-hesitant 26% is much more willing to return to regular activity, far less...

www.cnn.com

 

[Gene Steinberg]

And:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/07/16/covid-cases-rising/

 

[Gene Steinberg]

And since you question mask efficacy, here's one of many articles on the subject:

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

 

[Randall]

And since you question mask efficacy, here's one of many articles on the subject:

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus

We talked to UCSF epidemiologist George Rutherford, MD, and infectious disease specialist Peter Chin-Hong, MD, about the CDC’s reversal on mask-wearing, the current science on how masks work, and what to consider when choosing a mask.

www.ucsf.edu

Yes, I've been through much of the same, including looking at the actual studies in which they setup two mannequin heads in a closed box directly across from one another, and spray the aerosol directly at an opposing dummy. There are virtually no real life situations like that. But even if there were, that study indicated that even surgical masks sealed with tape don't prevent viral transmission.

However they did estimate a significant drop in the overall chance of contagion. In the real world however, things are very different, including the quality of masks and how they are worn. Opinions by professionals with far more credentials than me ( or you ) range from pro-mask to them being more of a health hazard.

Depending on the situation, the truth is probably both. Clinical settings probably benefit from masks whereas the general population will be mixed depending on their individual situations. Given that there have been a number of documented health issues with masks, a couple of which I posted here on the forum, when all things are considered, the option of making masking a personal choice in non-clinical settings, rather than an offense punishable by fines, seems most reasonable ( to me ).

But then again I'm not a germaphobic authoritarian who like the idea of a police state much, so I have an admitted amount of personal bias as well.

 

[Randall]

Now before you go deleting this as "Fake News". I've already done you the favor of fact checking the "Fact Checkers".

Here's some more on the issue of censorship and cyberbullying of those who make claims contrary to the approved agenda. Let's look at the case of Dr, Robert Malone, who said he is the inventor of the mRNA vaccine on his website and is on a video that is still available on YouTube that is posted below.

Looking into the "Fact Checkers" we find that they nitpick on the wording of his claim because it doesn't mention others who also did legitimate research that led-up to the vaccines. They don't take into account that this is a private business website, and that it's simply a bullet point to get visitors attention rather than being a long drawn out explanation.

When one looks further, Malone's research does appear to predate the work of those who are being credited by the "Fact Checkers", and he is undoubtedly well credentialled. The WHO, CDC, and Harvard Health all remained neutral in their "fact-check" assessment, and the others who supposedly claim it to be false do no such thing. They only refer to other researchers doing the same research, who are legitimate as well, but aren't making any waves.

These so called "fact checks" are themselves highly misleading, and one of the people they are crediting instead is a senior vice president at BioNTech. As a result Malone, like many other legitimate doctors with legitimate concerns, has since been been attacked.

On Twitter Malone says:

​

"I am sorry to have to post this, but the Trolls and "factchecking" journalists will not stop trying to slander me and attack my credentials as a way of seeking to damage the legitimacy of the logic and information that I am providing. Now, can we move on? Ask Katie Kariko!"​

Now here's the interview with Dr Robert Malone, Bret Weinstein PhD and Steve Kirsch:

Here's the story behind the interview: Are the Covid-19 vaccines "safe and effective"?

 

[Randall]

Un-Demonizing The Lab Origin Theory

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Let's look at where it stands now. Almost have of the U.S. population is fully vaccinated (68% of the adult population has received at least one shot). The number of potential side effects is extremely small, more with the J&J vaccine.

The number of "breakthrough" infections, those who get COVID-19 despite being vaccinated, is low. Again, the vast majority of new infections — and deaths — involve people who have not yet been vaccinated. Again, per the polls, most of these are Republicans, which is doubly troubling. A lot of that is due to much of the vaccine fear mongering is done by people who appeal to that demographic.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Now as far as masks are concerned: I agree that the effectiveness is all over the place, in large part because there is no set standard as to mask quality. But the mandate consists of social distancing and masking, and that combination appears, in the U.S., to have reduced infections. States where there were no mask mandates and politically-charged efforts to prevent them (Florida is a blatant example), the percentage of positives was higher.

The authorities in many countries (and the U.S. is a blatant offender) did not implement shutdowns and mask/distancing mandates in an organized and respectful manner. In this country, it was sabotaged from the top down in the last administration, if you know what I mean. Thus it became a political issue rather than one of science, with authorities and scientists working together to devise the best policies. You know what I mean about going too far. If you persuade most people to work with the government rather than against it, it can become a matter of patriotism rather than one of screwing the liberals. That ends up screwing those who want to screw the opposition.

That train has left the station. In this country, the goal is to vaccinate as many as possible to help reach herd immunity (that plus those who suffered from COVID-19). Getting final approval of the vaccines (rather than just emergency use) will help, and the Pfizer vaccine may receive it from the FDA within as little as two months.