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Do you believe in the devil?
- Thread starter Drew UK
- Start date
Free episodes:
cottonzway
I was saying boo-urns
I voted YES because I saw a pic of him the other day....
thetruthisoutthere
Skilled Investigator
Well personally I believe that we as a human race are the ones mucking up the universe. I don't believe in god and I don't believe in the devil, I think evil is just a bad part of the evolutionary cycle. I just listened to the episode with Lindsay or whatever her name is (the lady that thinks there is a spiritual war going on) and I don't mean to offend anybody's religious views by saying this (I am an atheist) but I think that was a bull crap interview. First off like Gene and Dave stated in the interview I think that she was just conforming to the symbology that she has been raised in (I am not saying that something weird isn't going on but it good be ghost, UFO, or psyhcologically related) and as far as having her daughter checked by a pyschologist I would definitley consider it. Anyway that turned into kind of a rant so I guess I'll say good bye for now.
Ah geez, you had to go there.
Destruction of the universe. What do you mean? The energy loss and eventual decay of stars and galaxies?? The acceleration of the universe and the gaps of galaxies that will likely result?
Or are you really asking something about evil?? Because the poll question doesn't reflect anything about evil, but the post title does.
Destruction of the universe. What do you mean? The energy loss and eventual decay of stars and galaxies?? The acceleration of the universe and the gaps of galaxies that will likely result?
Or are you really asking something about evil?? Because the poll question doesn't reflect anything about evil, but the post title does.
Drew UK
.
If there is some agent advancing creation - then why cannot there be an agent retracting creation? Matter vs Antimatter - in a sense.
Isn't it strange when we think about the devil we look for a human definition - but when we account for god we can extend it to encompass the larger world and the macrocosm?
I would have liked to change the context of the poll , but since I want to run it off against the other poll - to change our perspective perhaps - I need to keep it as closely related as possible.
I heard of a similar analysis put to a group of science students, interestingly 18% believed that god did not exist however there was an agent of evil.
To the existance (god,devil) respectivley - the results were:
20% (YES,YES)
22% (YES,NO)
38% (NO,NO)
18% (NO,YES)
2% DONT KNOW
Perhaps alot a people think this debate is a load of balloney (sp!!) and to an extent I do veer to this understanding - but then you look at some of the institutions in the world which discuss it quite fervently, then I think it needs more attention.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=binMjEiS8AY
Isn't it strange when we think about the devil we look for a human definition - but when we account for god we can extend it to encompass the larger world and the macrocosm?
I would have liked to change the context of the poll , but since I want to run it off against the other poll - to change our perspective perhaps - I need to keep it as closely related as possible.
I heard of a similar analysis put to a group of science students, interestingly 18% believed that god did not exist however there was an agent of evil.
To the existance (god,devil) respectivley - the results were:
20% (YES,YES)
22% (YES,NO)
38% (NO,NO)
18% (NO,YES)
2% DONT KNOW
Perhaps alot a people think this debate is a load of balloney (sp!!) and to an extent I do veer to this understanding - but then you look at some of the institutions in the world which discuss it quite fervently, then I think it needs more attention.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=binMjEiS8AY
Hoffmeister
There is no spoon
I believe!!! I believe his name is Dr Stephen Greer!!
He wants to use our £3 million to destroy the Universe!!
He wants to use our £3 million to destroy the Universe!!
Sorry, don't mean to be difficult, but I still don't understand what you are talking about. Retracting creation?? I just don't get it.
We see the galaxies, planets, Earth, life, etc. So it was either already here (steady state) or it had a beginning (Big Bang). So if we look at the perspective of some cosmic farmer or seeder who planted the energy and matter that is our universe, this is what we see. The universe, or at least the part we can see. We see galaxies moving away from each other at an expanding rate.
If we try to rewind time, we seem to see a small, incredibly dense clump that will bring about our universe. And if we fast forward, we can extrapolate that space expands out further and energy dissipates or matter is once again thrown back into the crunch it was in before only to happen again. Of course this is only one perspective. But why would we need to conjure some agent of retraction(which I don't really understand anyway)??
If we are talking about the devil, this is a different topic altogether. It would imply that god is good and I don't know why we might think this in the first place. This isn't really the antonym of the previous post, I think it is different. The devil and evil are about what we as humans conceive of as bad. Only humans. We don't see lions that kill their prey as evil. (do we??) But when a human kills another one, there is this concept of evil. It is a human based perception(of course it is not evil when considered a heroic act of freedom fighting). And I would say that NO there is no devil or resident agent of evil. There are only humans and human action, reaction, and emotion.
IMO an agent of evil is not the opposite of god. Again, there is no sufficient reason we would consider god a benevolent being just because it had some hand in the creation of our universe. This would be implying we somehow knew the intent of such an entity and that is quite vain and ignorant. Again IMO. So to me, the devil is just silly. Although the "caster out of demons" might be an interesting line of work.
Drew UK
.
TC,
I completely agree,
But the point here is not to be rational -
In the previous thread we assimilated intelligence as a human definition to "god" of benevolance and comfort (myself included, understanding the scientific context but being drawn towards the personal).
Although the poll was geared towards a scientific interpretatation - this could not be possible since the advancement of "god- an intelligent agent" would only create confusion since intelligence is not necessarily good, and also chaotic - creating the mystery.
So I proposed the "devil card" - in the ambition to offset one against the other.
That is, we have two interpretations of god -
1. The human "god" - which can distinguish between good and evil.
2. The scientific "god" - which unites good and evil.
The problem is, which one is correct?
Irrationallity -
I saw a bee today - it was trying to get out. It saw the beauty of light and freedom through the window but it kept on bashing against it crawling up and flying out and back towards it. The secret was to get out using the darkness of the open vent. Nevertheless, time and time again it kept on hitting the window thinking quite rationally in its interpretation of what I see is what I get.
I completely agree,
But the point here is not to be rational -
In the previous thread we assimilated intelligence as a human definition to "god" of benevolance and comfort (myself included, understanding the scientific context but being drawn towards the personal).
Although the poll was geared towards a scientific interpretatation - this could not be possible since the advancement of "god- an intelligent agent" would only create confusion since intelligence is not necessarily good, and also chaotic - creating the mystery.
So I proposed the "devil card" - in the ambition to offset one against the other.
That is, we have two interpretations of god -
1. The human "god" - which can distinguish between good and evil.
2. The scientific "god" - which unites good and evil.
The problem is, which one is correct?
Irrationallity -
I saw a bee today - it was trying to get out. It saw the beauty of light and freedom through the window but it kept on bashing against it crawling up and flying out and back towards it. The secret was to get out using the darkness of the open vent. Nevertheless, time and time again it kept on hitting the window thinking quite rationally in its interpretation of what I see is what I get.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
God and the Devil are in all human beings?
The terms God and the Devil are just terms created by the human race to help us understand Good vs Evil. We have no real scientific knowledge, but is my opinion, human beings have good and evil within them.
It just depends on the circumstances of the life , they have come from, eg. Broken home could have a negative effect, Abuse either verbally or sexually could also have a negative effect on there character.
All human minds are never the same so maybe the brain or mind whatever the term is, can influence the thoughts of how a person will act out his life.Maybe one individual persons brain could make him turn out to be a killer,
On the other side " another individual maybe prone to help sick kids within the city she live's. Who knows how the brains reacts really in certain individuals.
The terms God and the Devil are just terms created by the human race to help us understand Good vs Evil. We have no real scientific knowledge, but is my opinion, human beings have good and evil within them.
It just depends on the circumstances of the life , they have come from, eg. Broken home could have a negative effect, Abuse either verbally or sexually could also have a negative effect on there character.
All human minds are never the same so maybe the brain or mind whatever the term is, can influence the thoughts of how a person will act out his life.Maybe one individual persons brain could make him turn out to be a killer,
On the other side " another individual maybe prone to help sick kids within the city she live's. Who knows how the brains reacts really in certain individuals.
exo_doc
Foolish Earthling
Has anyone EVER observed something that could even slightly be considered EVIL outside of human activities?
Animals that kill and eat people do it for food, not out of evil doing.
Volcanoes erupt, earthquakes ...umm quake, tornadoes devistate, etc. etc., but they are natural forces of nature explainable by science and common sense.
Diseases? That's nature again.
Even what we may perceive as actual human evil acts can be attributed to bad brain wiring or bad nurturing in a bad environment.
Hell, humans can't even agree what constitutes "evil". Suicide is seen as honorable in Asia, yet it's an unforgiveable sin in the Christian dominated West.
I can't find any evidence at all for the existence of "evil" in the natural world, or really the human one either.
Can anyone name ANY? Even just one?
Animals that kill and eat people do it for food, not out of evil doing.
Volcanoes erupt, earthquakes ...umm quake, tornadoes devistate, etc. etc., but they are natural forces of nature explainable by science and common sense.
Diseases? That's nature again.
Even what we may perceive as actual human evil acts can be attributed to bad brain wiring or bad nurturing in a bad environment.
Hell, humans can't even agree what constitutes "evil". Suicide is seen as honorable in Asia, yet it's an unforgiveable sin in the Christian dominated West.
I can't find any evidence at all for the existence of "evil" in the natural world, or really the human one either.
Can anyone name ANY? Even just one?
Ron Collins
Curiously Confused
The Ying andd Yang, Newton's 3rd, Oscar and Felix, Two Face from Batman, the list goes on and on. If there is good then it follows that there is evil. The typical christian God is both of these things. The argument can be made that our concept of the devil can be melded with our concept of God. Two sides of the same deified coin. Who knows.
In the imortal words of Denis Miller..."Fuck it. Who wants pie?"
In the imortal words of Denis Miller..."Fuck it. Who wants pie?"
exo_doc
Foolish Earthling
Good and Evill are still just subjective artificial mental constructs, they are not real.
Most of your examples are just opposites, not good or evil.
What you see as good could be considered evil by another culture, and vice versa. It's all subjective.
So again I ask, objectively is there anything that could be considered real "evil"?
Drew UK
.
I read a case a few months ago, somewhere in the country -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2746778.ece
Now, I suppose you could argue that he was under the influence of drink and drugs - however they had the conscience to make the decision to be able to record is actions on the mobile phone and publish it on U-tube.
Then you have the cases of Fred West, Hindley and Sutcliffe, Miyazaki, Jeffrey Dahmer.
So I ask, objectively how does science account for these - of course, you will argue because of some affect in there lives, damaged childhood or whatever - but before we immediately rush there defence, excusing them because of there past we must know - is this conclusive, is it tested, can psychology say for definite and without doubt? - I will let you answer.
I know plenty of people how have had damaged childhoods and been exposed to extreme trauma's in there life - suprisingly, although acknowledging that they may have interpersonal difficulties and find it very difficult to form friendships etc - they still find it difficult to understand what posseses such people.
skunkape
Paranormal Maven
Psychology must recognize that the modern world is suffering a plague of what I'll dub "empathy deficit disorder." Whatever the cause (I suspect something is causing a malfunction in mirror neurons), it's symptoms should be recognized. Much of the suffering in this world is caused by people in very high positions of authority and influence having a similar lack of connection to their fellow humans.
Kieran
Paranormal Adept
All living animals have awareness, you must have it, or else you couldnt understand good vs evil. However animals and humans could never be the same, because our brains are far superior to any animal.We have a choice to eat meat because we have choices, animals in the wild havent got the choices we have, and i believe the reasons are obvious!
All living things seem to eat meat of some sort ,it is called the food chain.
It has been around since the dawn of time. Could it be evil that living things eat other livings things, who knows, maybe it is a grand design.
I will just have to wait and find out when i die?
Natural things that happen on the Earth, like earthquakes, dont happen because they are evil. Is the Earth aware or conscious. well i wont even go into that one to be honest!
Suicide is it evil , i believe it is not. If god was real, wouldnt he have programmed such thoughts from our minds in the first place.Humans are genetically flawed creatures!, simple as that, how did we come about, who knows, but i know is wasnt a divine god according to religion.
Drew UK
.
I am going to close out on the devil and god stuff - but there was one thing I have omitted, that I thought should be included -
There is an entity that exists everywhere where humanity treads.
It doesn't have a perspective of whether it's good or evil and is present in both.
It is omnipotent, it is created out of nothing but it makes all peoples all over the world get up and go to bed - to sacrifice there time and energy in the ambition to get some of it and more of it.
It is far more powerful than religion - although its sustenance is based on belief and faith - it is believed by everybody and few question it.
It is an entity that creates schools, houses, hospitals, banks including churches.
It is also an entity that creates drug houses, brothels, prisons, weapons stores.
It is an entity that has existed since mesopotamia - the cradle of human civilisation.
Although the physical manifestation of this entity is entirely worthless, the human definition conjures up its value based on trust and belief - It enriches human society by allowing them to trade and share, feed them, treat the sick and provide warmth and shelter.
Without it, or the hunger for it can devalue human society by allowing them to steel, pillage and torture.
To some people, it is a drug and it is worshipped day and night and they can't get away from it -awaiting for the grand "I have arrived" - since it is the yardstick of all power and control. Some people try to quantify it and explain it, but nobody really knows.
It is present how ever little or much, in everybodies household. Similarly with god, the poor people pray for it - the rich people administer it.
Today, Mr President of the USA you need to make a deal with it - as you know It will smite you down in furious anger if you erode it's faith!!
There is an entity that exists everywhere where humanity treads.
It doesn't have a perspective of whether it's good or evil and is present in both.
It is omnipotent, it is created out of nothing but it makes all peoples all over the world get up and go to bed - to sacrifice there time and energy in the ambition to get some of it and more of it.
It is far more powerful than religion - although its sustenance is based on belief and faith - it is believed by everybody and few question it.
It is an entity that creates schools, houses, hospitals, banks including churches.
It is also an entity that creates drug houses, brothels, prisons, weapons stores.
It is an entity that has existed since mesopotamia - the cradle of human civilisation.
Although the physical manifestation of this entity is entirely worthless, the human definition conjures up its value based on trust and belief - It enriches human society by allowing them to trade and share, feed them, treat the sick and provide warmth and shelter.
Without it, or the hunger for it can devalue human society by allowing them to steel, pillage and torture.
To some people, it is a drug and it is worshipped day and night and they can't get away from it -awaiting for the grand "I have arrived" - since it is the yardstick of all power and control. Some people try to quantify it and explain it, but nobody really knows.
It is present how ever little or much, in everybodies household. Similarly with god, the poor people pray for it - the rich people administer it.
Today, Mr President of the USA you need to make a deal with it - as you know It will smite you down in furious anger if you erode it's faith!!
Aaron LeClair
Paranormal Maven
I reason the devil is a goofy concept. It is as real as an idea. Which, could mean has an influence..... I think the belief in the devil has influenced this shit turd society more than a devil actually would care to.
Devil is lived backwards
Sorry, I forgot. Ozzy is the devil.
Devil is lived backwards
Sorry, I forgot. Ozzy is the devil.