Don Berliner, August 10, 2014

[DissectionStalker]

I think Stalker's someone else we might all know by name.

Time to quash this unfounded and passed around rumor. I know no one personally on this forum, nor have I ever posted here under another Avatar name.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

You must be an idiot, stalker. There's nothing there but empty claims and hearsay, juvenile malice, and a total misunderstanding of what constitutes disinformation -- i.e., the intentional spreading of disinformation. Your third paragraph implicates no one but Moore and several gossips whose identity you protect (and what are they testifying to? That they've 'heard' that Moore approached SF with a dishonest scheme to 'flush out' more Roswell witnesses, which SF obviously declined.) Evidently SF also won't play the gossip game you're trying to build some lame case on. And he'd probably laugh off the games you're playing, but I find them irritating and nonsensical. Haven't you got any real work to do?

I'm asking @Gene Steinberg to block my posts from your viewing if that's possible. If it isn't, I'll put you on 'ignore' when I figure out how to do that.

Stalker has deleted two of his messages so I don't know if that confuses the matter further.

To Ignore a member, click on their avatar and you'll see a link to activate the Ignore feature.

 

[Constance]

Thanks, Gene.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Stalker has deleted two of his messages so I don't know if that confuses the matter further.

Those two were merely duplicates that somehow appeared when trying to save an edit I made in the original post. For whatever reason I got 3 identical posts, and so I deleted two of those. These were both copies of the long Roswell witness list post that Heidi referenced and had nothing to do with Constance's complaints.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Heidi, thanks for the NICAP list shown below. Considering most of those witnesses have nothing to do with directly seeing ET's or the alleged ET crash, then, yeah, it is easy to agree they could speak with a straight face. Big deal. That has 'nothing' to do with what may have really happened.

It's easy to say something "straight faced" if you believe in the rumors, or think you saw something 30+ years ago relevant to the rumors too! A.F.O.S.I. had a propaganda disinformation campaign stating EXACTLY what Moore [and those silly rabbit followers far down that rabbit hole] have been told and wrote about it -the exact same ET story! When it's more than 30+ years ago, AND there are other top secret events that can be easily confused and distorted and mixed together from so long ago, then it is EASY for witnesses to be straight faced and mistaken too!

Heidi: On the witness list you linked to there is someone that says the crash is NOT ET:

Brown, Dr. Jerry - NASA engineer who had worked at White Sands Missile Range. He speculated that the metal found was Duraluminum alloy or a V-2 rocket.

Then there are those that are ridiculous to rely on:

Armstrong, Captain
- Collected pieces of the crash from the Brazels' two years after the crash.

Barnett, Grady L. "Barney"
- Claimed to have found wreckage and bodies on the Plains of San Agustin, about 120 miles from where Mac Brazel found wreckage.

Foster, Iris - Owned a cafe in Taos, New Mexico. She often heard a man call "Cactus Jack," an amateur archeologist, talk about seeing a downed alien ship.

Redfern and Vallee have better plausible theories for these:

Brown, Sergeant Melvin E. - Was at the second site, guarding the truck containing alien bodies. He also guarded the hanger at Roswell Army air Field while crates from the site were held there.

Gardner, Norma - Typist with top security clearance at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. She typed autopsy reports on alien beings and saw two bodies.

Just listen to the Paracast author James Carrion as to why FLYING DISC was probably being used for a continuation of a Military PSYOPS already started regarding the following PR.

Haut, 1st Lieutenant Walter - Public Information Officer at Roswell Army Air Field. He was ordered by Colonel Blanchard to issue a press release stating that a flying disc had been recovered.

==========================
Most of these witnesses had nothing to do directly with seeing ET or directly clearing the crash site, so it's just not that impressive, really.

Barrowclough, Lt. Colonel Robert
- Executive Officer of Roswell Army Air Field, Roswell, New Mexico.

Blanchard, Colonel William
- Commander, 509th Bomb Group, Roswell Army Air Field. Upon seeing the material collected at the site by Major Jesse A. Marcel, he ordered the roads leading to the crash site blocked, and later made a special trip to the site.

Brazel, W.W. "Mac"
- Foreman at the Foster ranch in Lincoln County, near Corona, New mexico. He found the crash site on the ranch.

Brazel, Bill
- Son of Mac Brazel and a major witness.

Briley, Lt. Colonel Joe
- In mid-July, 1947 he became the Operations Officer at Roswell Army Air Base.

Brown, Dr. Jerry
- NASA engineer who had worked at White Sands Missile Range. He speculated that the metal found was Duraluminum alloy or a V-2 rocket.

Brown, Sergeant Melvin E.
- Was at the second site, guarding the truck containing alien bodies. He also guarded the hanger at Roswell Army air Field while crates from the site were held there.

Chavez, Senator Dennis
- US Senator from New Mexico. He supposedly called Walter Whitmore, Sr. and suggested that he not air the recorded interview with Mac Brazel.

Clark, Deputy, B.A.
- Took the initial report from Mac Brazel at the Chaves County sheriff's office.

Dubose, Colonel Thomas J.
- Chief of Staff to Brigadier General Roger Ramey. He was photographed in Ramey's office with the "debris."

Easley, Major Edwin D.
- Provost Marshal in charge of the troops clearing the crash site.

Foster, Iris
- Owned a cafe in Taos, New Mexico. She often heard a man call "Cactus Jack," an amateur archeologist, talk about seeing a downed alien ship.

Gardner, Mary Ann
- Nurse at St. Petersburg Hospital, Florida. She heard an archeologist on her deathbed tell about discovering an alien ship and bodies.

Gardner, Norma
- Typist with top security clearance at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base. She typed autopsy reports on alien beings and saw two bodies.

Haut, 1st Lieutenant Walter
- Public Information Officer at Roswell Army Air Field. He was ordered by Colonel Blanchard to issue a press release stating that a flying disc had been recovered.

Henderson, Captain Oliver W. "Pappy"
- Member, First Air Transport Unit, Roswell Army Air Field, and co-pilot of the first B-29 flight from Roswell to Fort Worth. He also was the pilot of a C-54 flight carrying wreckage from Roswell to Wright-Patterson Field, Dayton, Ohio.

Henderson, Sappho
- Wife of Pappy Henderson. She was told by her husband that he had flown the C-54 to Wright Field.

Jennings, Colonel Payne
- Deputy base and group commander at Roswell Army Air Field. He was the pilot of the first B-29 flight from Roswell to Fort Worth.

Johnson, J. Bond
- Staff reporter for the "Fort Worth Star Telegram." He took photographs of the "wreckage" in General Ramey's office.

Joyce, Frank
- Reporter and announcer for Roswell radio station KGFL. He interviewed Mac Brazel on the telephone before the military arrived and later told a different story.

Kaufman, Frank
- Friend of Warrant Officer Robert Thomas. He said the bodies were sealed in a wooden crate, while still at the hospital.

Lapaz, Dr. Lincoln
- Expert in meteorites; degrees in mathematics and astronomy. He was called in to investigate the crash site.

Maltais, L.W. "Vern"
- Said Barney Barnett had told him he had seen bodies in one- piece grey suits, after which archaeologists and the military arrived.

Marcel, Major Jesse A.
- Intelligence Officer at Roswell Army Air Field, 509th Bomb Group Intelligence Office. He picked up material at the ranch and later flew it to Fort Worth Army Air Field.

Marcel, Jesse Jr.
- Son of Jesse A. Marcel. He saw debris samples that his father brought home and, under hypnosis, was able to recall the designs marking the I-beam.

McBoyle, Johnny
- Station Manager of radio station KSWS, Roswell, New Mexico. He attempted to put the Roswell story out over the wire.

McGuire, Phyllis
- Daughter of Sheriff George A. Wilcox. She saw the military arrive very soon after he father called them.

McQuiddy, Art
- Editor "Roswell Morning Dispatch". Walter Hunt delivered a press release to him, which other military personnel later tried to retrieve.

Newton, Warrant Office Irving
- Weather officer at Fort Worth Army Air Field. He was ordered to General Ramey's office to identify the "wreckage." a Rawin target balloon.

Parker, Jim
- Ranch hand of Mac Brazel's. His some came home from school one day in 1988 reported an Air Force truck in the area.

Payne, Bud
- Neighbor of Mac Brazel. He had gotten thrown off the Foster ranch by the military while chasing a stray cow. He knew exactly where the crash site was.

Porter, Sergeant Robert
- Crewman on the B-29 that flow packages from Roswell Army Air Field to Fort Worth Army Air Field. He claims that Jesse Marcel was on the flight.

Proctor, Floyd
- Mac Brazel's nearest neighbor and husband of Loretta Proctor. Brazel came to their house to show them a piece of the metal.

Proctor, Loretta
- Mac Brazel's nearest Neighbor and wife of Floyd Proctor. She said she remembers her husband trying to whittle on the metal but failing to make a mark.

Proctor, Timothy D.
- Son of Floyd and Loretta Proctor. He found the crash site with Mac Brazel.

Ramey, Brigadier General Roger
- Commander, eight Air Force, of which the 509th Bomb Group was a part.

Rickett, Lewis S.
- Army counter-intelligence (CIC) agent, who assisted in the retrieval of debris from the crash site.

Roberts, Jud
- Minority owner of radio station KGFL, Roswell, New Mexico. He said the military picked up copies of Haut's press release from the media there.

Shirkey, Robert
- Saw wreckage taken by eight or nine men through the Operations Building at Roswell Army Air Field.

Sleepy, Lydia
- Secretary to Merle Tucker in Albuquerque, New Mexico. She was ordered over the telephone to stop transmitting the crash story.

Smith, Sergeant Robert E.
- Member of the First Air Transport Unit at Roswell Army Air Field. He spent an entire day loading three aircraft with the material from the crash site.

Strickland, Lymann
- Neighbor of Mac Brazel. He saw Brazel in Roswell being escorted out of the newspaper offices by three military officers.

Strickland, Marian
- Neighbor of Mac Brazel, wife of Lymann Strickland. An upset Brazel visited them after his release from custody at Roswell Army Air Field.

Thomas, Robert
- Warrant Officer who came in on a special flight to assist in recovery of debris.

Tucker, Merle
- Owner of several New Mexico radio stations. He arrived back from out of town to find that his Roswell station manager had tried to put the crash story out over the wire.

Tyree, Tommy
- Hand for Mac Brazel. He began to work about one month after the crash and remembers that Brazel was irritated because the sheep would not cross the debris field and had to be driven the long way around to water.

Whitmore, Walter Sr.
- Majority owner of radio station KGFL in Roswell, New Mexico. He hid Mac Brazel from the Military.

Wilcox, Sheriff George A.
- Sheriff of Chaves County, in which Roswell is located. Mac Brazel showed him a piece of the debris and he suggested Brazel contact the military.

Wilmot, Dan
- Resident of Roswell, N.M. He and his wife saw an oval- shaped object fly over their house on July 2, 1947, the probable date of the crash.

Zorn, Vernon D.
- Non-commissioned officer in charge of the Third Photo Unit at Roswell Army Air Field. He said no photos of the crash site were taken by his men.

This list is not a total of people who witnessed the crash, this is a list of people's testimonies. Just like any crime scene, you cast your net wide and pull in. My point to you is that I find it highly unlikely that so many people could be involved in a psyops scheme, especially after all these years. I also find it highly unlikely that someone would do a deathbed confession and lie through his teeth about the whole thing. This dismissal of people's testimony is an odd response. And although it makes for good tasting gummy bears to tout James Carrion's theory to all things alien related it smells like horse crap from my perspective. Carrion's theory on ghost rockets is not a cure all to everything. Psyops is not a cure all. To reduce peoples one on one interviews, like Stan Friedmans work to wishful thinking and/or being part of a massive coverup is really brazen on your part. People might think I'm gullible when it comes to all this, but I would say that your extremely gullable to so readily hop on the psyops train for all things alien related.

 

[Burnt State]

Don was an excellent guest - another strong episode in a summer of strength for The Paracast. The abduction conversation caught my ear and was glad to hear Thomas E. Bullard referenced. For those who have not encountered him in pursuit of abduction phenomenon research, he is a Ph.D. folklorist with some strong convictions regarding the relationship between folklore and AAP. His research has led him to a place of conviction regarding the repetition of specific features of the alien abduction phenomenon.

Here's some writing samples:

In the Light of Experience

Have I led everyone astray by abstracting a stereotypical pattern from the reports, when the pattern is no more than a figment of my scholarly making? I don’t think so. the pattern I found came to light case by case and detail by detail. Examination precedes conference, beings have large heads, and examination rooms have uniform lighting – how abstract can a pattern be when it simply counts specific elements, and recognises some as far more common than others? The pattern emerges because it describes what witnesses report, not because a scholar prescribes what the story ought to be.
......
The abduction phenomena is a genuine anomaly. Whether similar strange experiences provoke similar strange stories, or personal needs somehow motivate people to select the same few story elements out of all the possibilities available to them, the problem remains provocative. Blame aliens, something akin to the Old Hag, Kenneth Ring’s imaginal realm, Jacques Vallée’s control system, an unexpected property of narrative transmission, hedgehogs or anything else. Folklore scholarship certainly cannot pick the winner. It can only point out some probable losers.

from: In the Light of Experience. Thomas E. Bullard | MAGONIA

The Supernatural Kidnap Narrative are Returns in Technological Disguise.

Abduction reports demonstrate that a complex legend filled with extraordinary content can arise and take hold in modern society. How much credit belongs to mass media is uncertain, but their crucial importance in passing along an awareness of abductions seems undeniable. News reaches the public through best-selling books, popular movies, and TV talk shows, or even by a casual glance at a tabloid newspaper in the grocery checkout lane. Whether the pervasiveness of these ideas causes imaginative fantasies or encourages wit- nesses to speak up is equally uncertain, but an audience for the stories is as- sured. The UFO community is both eager to listen and organized to spread the word. National groups with their network of enthusiastic members investigate reports, then communicate findings through organizational newsletters and journals. Not only belief but subscriptions sustain a receptive channel for the reports and their interpretation as alien visitations. Aware of the value of publicity, UFO organizations and researchers relay abduction cases to the news media and thereby complete the cycle of information distribution

from: http://query.homestead.com/ufoabduct.pdf

Bullard's nemesis Hilary Evans and contrarian positions:

Variation Enigmas; Folklore Rules. Thomas Bullard & Hilary Evans | MAGONIA

And then as I was looking though some of Bullard's articles I ran into someone I hadn't intersected with before, Dimitris Hatzopoulis. He's an excellent collector and assessor of UFO research with an Isaac Koi's dispassionate objectivism running through his discussion without the pseudonym - really valuable material here worth sifting through:

http://www.hyper.net/ufo/abductions.html

 

[DissectionStalker]

I would say that your extremely gullable to so readily hop on the psyops train for all things alien related.

My signature [see below] proves otherwise, as do many of my posts. Yes, 1970's/1980's Roswell is an A.F.O.S.I. PSYOPS, sorry, but you can't color me that for everything else -no way!

Heidi, I replied on this other thread, since it is not on-topic here:

Stanton T. Friedman — August 3, 2014 | Page 4 | The Paracast Community Forums

 

[flipper]

Did You Hear? UFOlogy is Dying. Again

What I think it really comes down to is that there's no money in UFOlogy. There was for a while when Laurence Rockefeller was interested and now Bigelow Airspace seems to be running their own privatized UFOlogy (the story goes that the FAA and the like refer all sightings now to Bigelow) for reasons we can only guess at, but they certainly have no interest in sharing the wealth. They have their own UFOlogists, thank you.

This is no small thing because this speaks to a larger story, the expansion of government secrecy, the privatization of National Security, and the increasingly opaque nature of the intelligence apparatus even in the wake of the Snowden and Wikileaks revelations. The fact of the matter is that most of what we know about UFOs and the government dates back to those Carter-era document dumps, and very little has come to light since. Nothing much of substance either for or against has come to light since 9/11.
The Secret Sun: Did You Hear? UFOlogy is Dying. Again.

 

[boomerang]

Don't have a lot to add except that Berliner was an excellent guest. He comes across as an open minded skeptic who does not come wielding claims of unimpeachable insider information and unfounded conclusions. Quite refreshing and still very interesting.

 

[technomage]

And then as I was looking though some of Bullard's articles I ran into someone I hadn't intersected with before, Dimitris Hatzopoulis. He's an excellent collector and assessor of UFO research with an Isaac Koi's dispassionate objectivism running through his discussion without the pseudonym - really valuable material here worth sifting through:

http://www.hyper.net/ufo/abductions.html

His site is how I got re-introduced to the UFO field and it's how I found various podcasts, including the Paracast. It's a very informative site, but it doesn't look like it's been updated since 2012.

 

[Han]

I have just finished listening to this episode, I think that Mr Berliner was an excellent guest, I particularly enjoyed his great sense of humour.
The only issue I had (well maybe not issue but question) was why it is generally assumed that UFO/UAP/Flying saucers/Alien Space ships ect.... are made from "Metal"?

I confess that I know less than most about UFO's and I am no metallurgist but it seems to me that "metal" is what we (humans) have used to build craft, but there are many other materials that could be used: woods, plastics, carbon fiber etc let alone materials we have not yet managed to master like water* for example. My opinion is that if "ET" has the capability of interstellar or inter-dimensional travel then them having a "technology" that can manipulate individual molecules of X material to join and form into a predetermined pattern or arrangement e.g. a Flying Saucer is not beyond reason.


* I chose water as an example because of the many reports of UFO's etc near, around or above water sources: maybe they are refueling/recharging or repairing/refitting?