Don Ecker: December 29, 2013

[flipper]

How come no one answered the question?

 

[flipper]

While I did enjoy some of Enzo's posts, though not the ones attacking Don, it annoys me to no end when people on the internet who don't use their real names want to brag about who they think they are or what they've done. I don't use my real name here, some members know me from Facebook but regardless, you'll never hear me bragging about things that I've done since there's no way for anyone to verify what I say without my real name and I'm not willing to provide that to most people, you'll also never hear me calling myself a genius, because I'm not deluded and also because, and here's a hint, if you have to tell everyone that you're a genius, chances are, you're not.

While I might consider Don a right winger, it's all a matter of perspective and he might not see himself as such. Regardless of whether he is or isn't, there's one thing that can't be denied about Don and that's that the man calls it like he sees it, he might not be right 100% of the time but you still have to appreciate the man's honesty and integrity and the fact that he's willing to call bullshit when he sees it. It certainly hasn't made things any easier for him in this morass that we call ufology, but he's maintained that honesty nevertheless and I have nothing but respect for that.

So is it okay to disagree with Don or not?

 

[wwkirk]

So is it okay to disagree with Don or not?

You can disagree with him if you do it in a civil way.

 

[flipper]

You can disagree with him if you do it in a civil way.

Here is my respectful attempt.
In your previous appearance on the paracast I understood you seemed to conclude that criticism of is Israel is equal to anti Antisemitism. Is this right?

 

[Burnt State]

You can disagree with him if you do it in a civil way.

i guess a larger question would be, "is it ok to mock or admonish certain belief systems if the guest is also an active poster and forum administrator?" Let's face it, half of what goes on in this forum is done jokingly, with dripping sarcasm, and in some cases people are outright hostile or mocking over certain positions the guests have put forth. It's often far from civil and in some cases totally dismissive. If you look up and down the "talk about the show" thread area this is borne out time and time again - it's just rare that the guest shows up to answer questions.

Even more rare is the fact that Mr. Ecker is a forum mod and is here with us all the time. I thought Muadib was the diplomatic response to that flame war where i'm sure many others sat on the sidelines, unwilling or afraid to comment lest they also be turfed off the forum. So in this case it behooves forum members to be thoughtful when commenting here because there is that extra concern. Is that inequitable or just a reminder to everyone that civility and being polite carries more weight everywhere than mockery does? It's always dealer's choice i suppose, but maybe there's something to be gained from civility. If you look at Enzo's opening volley he mixes criticism with mockery - engagement followed immediately after.

As far as critiquing Israel goes, Flipper, it has to be one of the touchiest subjects on the planet. But there sure is a lot to critique in terms of treatment of Palestinians and the open practice of apartheid at work that the world has witnessed for decades now. That whole Chamish "i would have joined the Stern Gang" comment was an example of overt Zionist hatred and that show should have been pulled right there. The important thing to remember is which facet or historical aspect you want to critique. There's a lot of Israelis who want to make peace with Palestinians and likewise - they're just both in the minority.

 

[Wade]

Sarcasm ? In this Forum ?

 

[Decker]

So is it okay to disagree with Don or not?

Flipper, as I stated on page 5 of this thread ..

I have been a mod here for quite some time and until the last week or so I have never banned anyone. However if either of those users had attacked another Paracast user in the manner displayed to and at me.. I would have banned them. There was no excuse for resorting to a personal attack, none what so ever. I have always tried to display respect to others and will not tolerate disrespect for no other reason than the person in question did not like something I said. I would not disrespect you .. and I will not allow someone else to disrespect me.

I hope that is clear to all who read this. I have always told anyone who asks, and have repeated on DMR, The Paracast has always been an oasis of polite discourse in a sea of dreck. I see no reason for that to change anytime soon. Do any of you?

Now let me answer your question. Of course it is okay to disagree with me. Do you think I banned those two guys because they disagreed with me? I did not.

I have been on the web since there was a web. One thing that always disgusted me was the manner that people often launched flame wars (and we have all seen them over the years) when I know that instead of sitting behind a keyboard, had these people been sitting in front of each other there would have never been the enmity displayed on a computer monitor. If for no other reason, if someone called another a vulgarity, there is always a danger of a punch to the face. The Paracast has always been one place where people can disagree but not be disagreeable. Most conversations deal with paranormal types of topics, and lets be real. It is often impossible to provide factual evidence with paranormal topics so we are left with personal testimony. How believable do we find the witness, is often the real question. Now, just for the sake of this discussion, let us pretend that User A is a skeptic and User B is the person giving us the story. Go to the Randi forum and try to discuss an alleged paranormal event. Withing two or three responses you are a "tin-foil hat" wearing moron and sometimes worse ... just because you went to a place where "rationalists" supposedly reside ... and you are looking for help with an unknown occurrence. Well, that is very rare here. And unless I am totally wrong I do not think the majority of Paracast users want to see this forum, "oasis of polite discourse in a sea of dreck" devolve into a place like that.

Now, just one more thing ... you want to disagree with me? By all means .. go for it. Show me where I am wrong on something if you can .. that I will appreciate. Call me an asshole ... you are on your own.

Decker

 

[Decker]

Here is my respectful attempt.
In your previous appearance on the paracast I understood you seemed to conclude that criticism of is Israel is equal to anti Antisemitism is this right?

I do not believe that is what I said. Look, let me try to explain my feelings about Israel.

First, I am not Jewish nor do I think any of my ancestors were Jewish. When I was a youngster, not too many years after the end of WW II, I heard my father talking about the end of the war in Europe .. and he was one of the American GI's that liberated the concentration camp at Dachu. Dachu and many other camps were set up to expressly murder Jews and other enemies of the Nazi regime. These horrors he witnessed stayed with him the rest of my dad's life. This affected me to a great extent.

Over the years, from Junior High School to High School and later college I did a lot of research and reading on what might have caused this horror. Since the Roman destruction of the Temple and the Jews being dispersed, they have mostly been on the sticky end of the stick. The early Christians believed it was the Jews who killed Christ. As a result of this belief Jews were routinely discriminated against all over Europe. They were forced, in some cases, to convert or be murdered by the Catholic Inquisition. Also, if things were going bad in an area, sickness, illnesses, bad economy or whatever ... the Jews made a great scapegoat. As a result of that .. often pograms were launched against them. Mobs would invade the ghetto, and rape and murder ensued. Prior to WW II almost no country would accept Jewish refuges from Germany or Europe. The USA could have saved many Jews but our President, Franklin Roosevelt, denied them entry. As a result of that ... millions died in the camps. There was only one place that might be available to Jews, their own country. At the end of WW I, Britian promised the Jews a homeland. Know about that?
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The question was raised at the new United Nations about a Jewish State and approved. Many Jews that escaped death in Europe escaped to Palestine, and the Brits caught many of them and once again, and placed them in camps. Not camps like the Nazi's had, but camps none the less. The numbers of Jews that entered what would become Israel were miniscule compared the the millions and millions of Arabs there. But the Arabs promised to drive the Jews back into the sea .. in effect cause another holocaust on the heels of the holocaust that just happened. The Jews fought like tigers when the Arabs invaded, and against all odds prevailed. How could anyone not admire that bravery? And the Arabs attacked again and again, and as a matter of fact are still being attacked today from the area of Gaza. Do you remember the PLO's attack on Israeli athletes, and their murder, in Munich, 1972? I do.

The Arabs in the PLA could have had their own country back in 1993 when Arafat met with Israeli officials, but refused to do it. Arafat ended up getting the Peace Prize for it. (And that is when I decided the Peace Prize was nothing more than bullshit.)

Now we can agree on the fact that I do not agree all the time with what Israel carries out. But then I do not live in a place that is effectively on a war footing 24/7. (Even though there are some that might disagree these days.) So, I admire their guts and if truth be told I admire their telling the rest of the world to go to hell in defense of their nation .. now and again. To sum up, I do not believe, in all cases, that being critical of Israel is anti-semetic ... but sometimes it might be.

Decker

 

[flipper]

I do not believe that is what I said. Look, let me try to explain my feelings about Israel.

First, I am not Jewish nor do I think any of my ancestors were Jewish. When I was a youngster, not too many years after the end of WW II, I heard my father talking about the end of the war in Europe .. and he was one of the American GI's that liberated the concentration camp at Dachu. Dachu and many other camps were set up to expressly murder Jews and other enemies of the Nazi regime. These horrors he witnessed stayed with him the rest of my dad's life. This affected me to a great extent.

Over the years, from Junior High School to High School and later college I did a lot of research and reading on what might have caused this horror. Since the Roman destruction of the Temple and the Jews being dispersed, they have mostly been on the sticky end of the stick. The early Christians believed it was the Jews who killed Christ. As a result of this belief Jews were routinely discriminated against all over Europe. They were forced, in some cases, to convert or be murdered by the Catholic Inquisition. Also, if things were going bad in an area, sickness, illnesses, bad economy or whatever ... the Jews made a great scapegoat. As a result of that .. often pograms were launched against them. Mobs would invade the ghetto, and rape and murder ensued. Prior to WW II almost no country would accept Jewish refuges from Germany or Europe. The USA could have saved many Jews but our President, Franklin Roosevelt, denied them entry. As a result of that ... millions died in the camps. There was only one place that might be available to Jews, their own country. At the end of WW I, Britian promised the Jews a homeland. Know about that?
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The question was raised at the new United Nations and approved. Many Jews that escaped death in Europe escaped to Palestine, and the Brits caught many of them and once again, placed in camps. Not camps like the Nazi's had, but camps none the less. The numbers of Jews that entered what would become Israel were miniscule compared the the millions and millions of Arabs there. But the Arabs promised to drive the Jews back into the sea .. in effect cause another holocaust on the heels of the holocaust that just happened. The Jews fought like tigers when the Arabs invaded, and against all odds prevailed. How could anyone not admire that bravery? And the Arabs attacked again and again, and as a matter of fact are still being attacked today from the area of Gaza. Do you remember the PLO's attack on Israeli athletes, and their murder, in Munich, 1972? I do.

The Arabs in the PLA could have had their own country back in 1993 when Arafat met with Israeli officials, but refused to do it. Arafat ended up getting the Peace Prize for it. (And that is when I decided the Peace Prize was nothing more than bullshit.)

Now we can agree on the fact that I do not agree all the time with what Israel carries out. But then I do not live in a place that is effectively on a war footing 24/7. (Even though there are some that might disagree these days.) So, I admire their guts and if truth be told I admire their telling the rest of the world to go to hell in defense of their nation .. now and again. To sum up, I do not believe, in all cases, that being critical of Israel is anti-semetic ... but sometimes it might be.

Decker

Thank you for taking the time to give a detailed answer. I think we can agree on something else: There are people trying to make a better world and people making it worse. This should be the only criteria for judging people. I include you in the people trying to make the world in a better place. I am posting something I found on the Internet recently, not to provoke you, but because they are protesting against one aspect of Israel that really bothers me. I am not queer but I did grow up beside the man being interviewed at the end.
Thanks again
flipper

 

[flipper]

i guess a larger question would be, "is it ok to mock or admonish certain belief systems if the guest is also an active poster and forum administrator?" Let's face it, half of what goes on in this forum is done jokingly, with dripping sarcasm, and in some cases people are outright hostile or mocking over certain positions the guests have put forth. It's often far from civil and in some cases totally dismissive. If you look up and down the "talk about the show" thread area this is borne out time and time again - it's just rare that the guest shows up to answer questions.

Even more rare is the fact that Mr. Ecker is a forum mod and is here with us all the time. I thought Muadib was the diplomatic response to that flame war where i'm sure many others sat on the sidelines, unwilling or afraid to comment lest they also be turfed off the forum. So in this case it behooves forum members to be thoughtful when commenting here because there is that extra concern. Is that inequitable or just a reminder to everyone that civility and being polite carries more weight everywhere than mockery does? It's always dealer's choice i suppose, but maybe there's something to be gained from civility. If you look at Enzo's opening volley he mixes criticism with mockery - engagement followed immediately after.

As far as critiquing Israel goes, Flipper, it has to be one of the touchiest subjects on the planet. But there sure is a lot to critique in terms of treatment of Palestinians and the open practice of apartheid at work that the world has witnessed for decades now. That whole Chamish "i would have joined the Stern Gang" comment was an example of overt Zionist hatred and that show should have been pulled right there. The important thing to remember is which facet or historical aspect you want to critique. There's a lot of Israelis who want to make peace with Palestinians and likewise - they're just both in the minority.

A good critique of what went on in the form. THANK YOU. Do you equate Zionism with Judaism?

 

[Decker]

Thank you for taking the time to give a detailed answer. I think we can agree on something else: There are people trying to make a better world and people making it worse. This should be the only criteria for judging people. I include you in the people trying to make the world in a better place. I am posting something I found on the Internet recently, not to provoke you, but because they are protesting against one aspect of Israel that really bothers me. I am not queer but I did grow up beside the man being interviewed at the end.
Thanks again
flipper

Well, lets take a look at the reverse side of that coin, okay? What do you think would happen to those protesters had they tried to march and demonstrate in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia or many other strict Islamic states? Everyone of those people would have been beheaded or stoned to death because they were gay. Not to mention that even if they were not gay, they would be murdered just because they were Jews. I do not know about you but I find that something to think about.

Decker

 

[Burnt State]

A good critique of what went on in the form. THANK YOU. Do you equate Zionism with Judaism?

Definitely not. I see Zionism as the problem.

It's interesting that you posted the Queers Against Israeli Apartheid sequence from Toronto Pride. The debate about whether or not they woud be in the last year's pride march was a big deal and identfied that this division cuts across all groups. Walls are evil things. Pink Floyd taught us nothing, nor did the tearing down of the Berlin Wall. Still the walls persist and so hatred lives on.

 

[red_pill_junkie]

I listened to the episode last night, and I enjoyed it greatly. I may not always agree with Mr. Decker's political views, but when he talks, I listen to anyway.

I found incredibly interesting the confrontation he had with Strieber & his wife on account on the report he wrote about human mutilations; specially considering how in 2007 Strieber went out & released a graphic novel titled The Nye Incidents, whose plot deals with... human mutilations.

The fact that Strieber has continually changed his opinion about 'the Visitors' is hardly news, though --and to me is a sign that the man's experiences, whatever the provenance & nature of the intelligence(s) behind it, ARE real... though then we would have to deal with the ultimate question of 'what IS real?' wouldn't we?

I haven't had the chance to read The Nye Incidents --I remember that I pre-ordered it on Amazon but after months of waiting I received a notice that it wouldn't be delivered & I received my refund. Go figure-- but I seem to remember that the late Mac Tonnies liked it. Then again Tonnies always kept Whitley in high regard.

Getting back to the show, I also found fascinating Keel's speculation about the need of these entities for genetic material, as the resources needed to 'construct' avatar bodies which they can use in our world. Something which doesn't seem to be in dispute with Tim Beckley's ideas about the MIB --namely, that the MIBs might be innocent civilians 'possessed' by an outside agency in order to carry an specific job, & once accomplished forget all about it. The perfect Manchurian Candidate!

Saludos,

RPJ

 

[Wade]

".... Something which doesn't seem to be in dispute with Tim Beckley's ideas about the MIB --namely, that the MIBs might be innocent civilians 'possessed' by an outside agency in order to carry an specific job, & once accomplished forget all about it. The perfect Manchurian Candidate!..."

I never heard this and find it interesting but if one wanted the perfect manchurian canidate wouldn't one want them to look like other manchurians instead of the odd looking... not so much behaving which could be "explained"... characters that are often reported?

 

[red_pill_junkie]

I never heard this and find it interesting but if one wanted the perfect manchurian canidate wouldn't one want them to look like other manchurians instead of the odd looking... not so much behaving which could be "explained"... characters that are often reported?

Ah. Great question!

Well, first we'd have to go back to what Nick Redfern has written about MIBs: namely that in his opinion there seem to be several types, ranging from the common-looking ones who are probably members of some government agency or armed forces going undercover, to the really anomalous ones, who might be more interested in scaring the UFO witnesses for the scare itself, than trying to actually silence them --Nick suggests these entities might be actually feeding off the fear of the people unlucky enough to receive a visit from them.

But then, let's look at the odd looks & behavior reported by some witnesses. We should maybe ask ourselves: is that specifically engineered to dissuade the witness to report the visit? It's like something Greg Bishop is fond of repeating: when human beings encounter something truly anomalous of which they haven't had a previous experience, we encounter a great difficulty in trying to 'store' such encounters into one of our little mental boxes. And if the experience can't be stored into those mental boxes, what do we do? Most of the time, we simply discard them.

Mind you, such type of psychological tricks are also often used by human operatives. In Project Beta, Greg tells the story of how Falcon & Richard Doty wanted to use Bill Moore for some unspecified errand, and they met him in some park to discuss the operation. During their talk Bill kept seeing something really weird: men wearing women's clothing peering out of the bushes! It was all a test, you see, intended to assess whether Bill had any problem dealing with homosexuals --the 'mission' they wanted him for involved trying to spy on someone inside a gay bar.

Bottomline is, sometimes things are not what they seemed to at first glance. When UFO researchers start hearing clicking sounds during phone conversations, it is not because the people keeping tabs on them are being sloppy; it's because THEY want the researcher to KNOW he's being watched, and to infuse paranoia on him or her as a form of psychological warfare.

Then again... I'm probably completely wrong, and MIBs might just be sloppy interdimensional hitmen

Saludos,

RPJ

 

[Wade]

Or troubleshooters be given the duty of maintaining the status quo...whatever that may be.

 

[nameless]

So ..,, um ok
What did I miss ? I've got a Love is in the air vid on standby.

 

[nameless]

Was a good show as expected. Lots to talk about. Get Richard back on too.

 

[nameless]

Ah. Great question!

Well, first we'd have to go back to what Nick Redfern has written about MIBs: namely that in his opinion there seem to be several types, ranging from the common-looking ones who are probably members of some government agency or armed forces going undercover, to the really anomalous ones, who might be more interested in scaring the UFO witnesses for the scare itself, than trying to actually silence them --Nick suggests these entities might be actually feeding off the fear of the people unlucky enough to receive a visit from them.

But then, let's look at the odd looks & behavior reported by some witnesses. We should maybe ask ourselves: is that specifically engineered to dissuade the witness to report the visit? It's like something Greg Bishop is fond of repeating: when human beings encounter something truly anomalous of which they haven't had a previous experience, we encounter a great difficulty in trying to 'store' such encounters into one of our little mental boxes. And if the experience can't be stored into those mental boxes, what do we do? Most of the time, we simply discard them.

Mind you, such type of psychological tricks are also often used by human operatives. In Project Beta, Greg tells the story of how Falcon & Richard Doty wanted to use Bill Moore for some unspecified errand, and they met him in some park to discuss the operation. During their talk Bill kept seeing something really weird: men wearing women's clothing peering out of the bushes! It was all a test, you see, intended to assess whether Bill had any problem dealing with homosexuals --the 'mission' they wanted him for involved trying to spy on someone inside a gay bar.

Bottomline is, sometimes things are not what they seemed to at first glance. When UFO researchers start hearing clicking sounds during phone conversations, it is not because the people keeping tabs on them are being sloppy; it's because THEY want the researcher to KNOW he's being watched, and to infuse paranoia on him or her as a form of psychological warfare.

Then again... I'm probably completely wrong, and MIBs might just be sloppy interdimensional hitmen

Saludos,

RPJ

Redpill, nice interview with Gregg Bishop on Rad Myst.


I do think that if you want to study or be interested in conspiracy and UFOs then you need to be aware of linguistics, basic philosophy and psychology, social political and cultural context but above all you need to understand spycraft.

 

[kanakaris]

I do not believe that is what I said. Look, let me try to explain my feelings about Israel.

First, I am not Jewish nor do I think any of my ancestors were Jewish. When I was a youngster, not too many years after the end of WW II, I heard my father talking about the end of the war in Europe .. and he was one of the American GI's that liberated the concentration camp at Dachu. Dachu and many other camps were set up to expressly murder Jews and other enemies of the Nazi regime. These horrors he witnessed stayed with him the rest of my dad's life. This affected me to a great extent.

Over the years, from Junior High School to High School and later college I did a lot of research and reading on what might have caused this horror. Since the Roman destruction of the Temple and the Jews being dispersed, they have mostly been on the sticky end of the stick. The early Christians believed it was the Jews who killed Christ. As a result of this belief Jews were routinely discriminated against all over Europe. They were forced, in some cases, to convert or be murdered by the Catholic Inquisition. Also, if things were going bad in an area, sickness, illnesses, bad economy or whatever ... the Jews made a great scapegoat. As a result of that .. often pograms were launched against them. Mobs would invade the ghetto, and rape and murder ensued. Prior to WW II almost no country would accept Jewish refuges from Germany or Europe. The USA could have saved many Jews but our President, Franklin Roosevelt, denied them entry. As a result of that ... millions died in the camps. There was only one place that might be available to Jews, their own country. At the end of WW I, Britian promised the Jews a homeland. Know about that?
Balfour Declaration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The question was raised at the new United Nations about a Jewish State and approved. Many Jews that escaped death in Europe escaped to Palestine, and the Brits caught many of them and once again, and placed them in camps. Not camps like the Nazi's had, but camps none the less. The numbers of Jews that entered what would become Israel were miniscule compared the the millions and millions of Arabs there. But the Arabs promised to drive the Jews back into the sea .. in effect cause another holocaust on the heels of the holocaust that just happened. The Jews fought like tigers when the Arabs invaded, and against all odds prevailed. How could anyone not admire that bravery? And the Arabs attacked again and again, and as a matter of fact are still being attacked today from the area of Gaza. Do you remember the PLO's attack on Israeli athletes, and their murder, in Munich, 1972? I do.

The Arabs in the PLA could have had their own country back in 1993 when Arafat met with Israeli officials, but refused to do it. Arafat ended up getting the Peace Prize for it. (And that is when I decided the Peace Prize was nothing more than bullshit.)

Now we can agree on the fact that I do not agree all the time with what Israel carries out. But then I do not live in a place that is effectively on a war footing 24/7. (Even though there are some that might disagree these days.) So, I admire their guts and if truth be told I admire their telling the rest of the world to go to hell in defense of their nation .. now and again. To sum up, I do not believe, in all cases, that being critical of Israel is anti-semetic ... but sometimes it might be.

Decker

But not a word about the Israeli colonisation of its neighbours.Imagine another country , let's say Irak , doing that...Or the stealing of Palestinian houses and land, the deportation of Palestinians ,the illegal use of white phosphorus in Gaza , the use of 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.