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dont call the police defend your self...a local shariff states...

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This is pretty interesting, Britain has very few guns yet is listed as the most violent country in the EU, it is even more violent than South Africa. The USA is not even in the top 10.

You know, the stats discussion can be spun any way you want. When he cited those stats around violence he did not distinguish gun violence vs. baseball bats or any other weapon. When you look at stats regarding gun violence, homicide and gun deaths per 100,000 the US leads up against all the developed nations in significant numbers, and in most areas the US is in the top 5 or 6, and the countries above and below are no one to be associated with. England is way, way below in all these areas. This news show should be called Skewed Report as their approach is Orwellian at best.

The FBI and the CDC have totally different homicide statistics so a lot of this discussion really needs much more digging and less acceptance of what spin doctors say, especially around the carry and conceal piece as a means of lowering crime. Each side has their own contentions in this area.
 
Man, I just wish someone was there for us to help think through this issue and sort it all out. Maybe if, you know, Michael Moore or Bill Maher, or maybe, I don't know, a comedian could help us to understand what to think about this mess. I know! We should have a reality show star explain what to do! Emotional appeals by these most well-educated leaders of our society would surely provide the most rational way to make decisions about gun control.

Whatever we decide, we must remember that more laws always solve every problem. Thanks to more laws, the U.S. has eradicated illegal drug use and prostitution. Without laws, we would surely have large areas of our cities where drugs would be sold openly and homicides would annually number in the hundreds. Unfortunately, our country learned nothing from the highly successful effort to ban alcohol under prohibition. If only we could outlaw alcohol again, we could eliminate alcoholism, as it would be impossible to drink. Less alcohol=less alcoholism, right?

But for now, more gun laws is certainly the answer. That way, we could eliminate mass shootings, like the highly successful Norwegian gun laws have done in that country:
Norway's gun laws prove easy to ignore | World news | The Guardian
 
But for now, more gun laws is certainly the answer. That way, we could eliminate mass shootings, like the highly successful Norwegian gun laws have done in that country. [/url]

In fact, why not eliminate all the laws altogether? To see what that's like just go live in Somalia for a while and join a pirate ship. Laws are there to regulate society and the Police are there to uphold it. Just because different 'sin' cimes are more common than others, it doesn't mean you vote for the silly position of eliminating laws, or stopping new ones in order to better regulate society. Laws help to define a culture and shape society. That's why America has had what, say thirty-forty mass shootings in the last decade, whereas Norway has had what, about one? I think i'd take new laws over less if that's the net result.
 
In fact, why not eliminate all the laws altogether? To see what that's like just go live in Somalia for a while and join a pirate ship. Laws are there to regulate society and the Police are there to uphold it. Just because different 'sin' cimes are more common than others, it doesn't mean you vote for the silly position of eliminating laws, or stopping new ones in order to better regulate society. Laws help to define a culture and shape society. That's why America has had what, say thirty-forty mass shootings in the last decade, whereas Norway has had what, about one? I think i'd take new laws over less if that's the net result.


So what kind of laws would you like to see passed?
What laws are going to stop mass shootings?
What laws are going to stop the criminal element from getting thier hands on guns?
What laws are going to allow someone to protect their families, homes, and themselves without breaking some new law?
What laws are going to get cops to the scene of a crime before it happens so guns for citizens aren't necessary?
 
So what kind of laws would you like to see passed?
What laws are going to stop mass shootings?
What laws are going to stop the criminal element from getting thier hands on guns?
What laws are going to allow someone to protect their families, homes, and themselves without breaking some new law?
What laws are going to get cops to the scene of a crime before it happens so guns for citizens aren't necessary?
To be honest, the process of movement from having laws, and then for laws to participate in a reshaping of culture is quite a long process. Switzerland, for example, lets everyone buy guns, but their culture is not one that promoted gun culture or the right to bear arms. They like clocks and their army rides bikes, but very few mass shootings.

What I was hoping to get from the pro-gun folk, like Decker for example, was a deeper understanding about America's connection to gun culture and its role in defining the mess it's in regarding what I see as both an excess of highpower, semi-automatic weaponry and the many mass shootings. So far all I understand is that everyone is busy sanctifying the 2nd amendment just because, and no one is making any connections between the amount of guns you have and the mass shootings by these guns.

Some places to start woud be thorough background checks, gun registry systems, limits on the type of high power, semi-automatic weapons and ammo you can buy, as well as laws regarding storage of weapons so young people can't just go and grab weapons and start shooting up schools. Doesn't that sound reasonable? Maybe with fewer guns around, through more stringent controls, there would no longer be that paranoia fueling people's need to be armed to the teeth to defend themselves. Shifting culture might get rid of that boogeyman.

I know the flip side says that the 2nd amendment is reasonable and people should be allowed to own whatever kind of weapon they want, but how far should that go? And if not laws then what will America point to as a reason for why so many young people across North Ameica have decided to shoot the place up? Something in the water?
 
exo_doc, don't get in the way of emotion no matter how much you desire logic. Emotion will always win out. Spock left the building.

Decker

Don't really get the emotion part but am still interested your opinion regarding my previous posts in response to your history lesson.
 
Burnt, I understand why the world would be a much better place without guns. But that's not going to happen. At least anytime soon.
In the mean time, in the real world, gun violence is not going to be cured with new laws of any kind.
New laws won't even curb gun violence........with the exception of everyone carrying concealed (legally by passing background checks and maybe a psych work up? Maybe?).
A dude might think twice before he walks into a movie theater or a school (which are now easy pickings on defenseless people) and start shooting if he thinks some people might be armed and actually shoot back.
A carry-conceal in that movie theater would have cut down the victim count by a great deal. An armed teacher (I shudder at the thought) or armed guard would have had the same effect at Sandy Hook.

I could go on if you'd like, but my bottom line is....I'm a law abiding tax-paying ctitzen, a veteran of the US Army, and a father of three beautiful kids and a wonderful wife that I will do anything to protect from harm.
So to sum up......that old cliche'.... "You'll take my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands".
 
Burnt, I understand why the world would be a much better place without guns. But that's not going to happen. At least anytime soon...I could go on if you'd like, but my bottom line is....I'm a law abiding tax-paying ctitzen, a veteran of the US Army, and a father of three beautiful kids and a wonderful wife that I will do anything to protect from harm.
So to sum up......that old cliche'.... "You'll take my guns when you pry them from my cold dead hands".

exo_doc, I totally appreciate your response, especially regarding how much you value your family. I feel the same about mine. From research, I know that the jury is still out regarding whether or not carrying concealed works as a deterrent to unstable people bent on doing harm - many of those don't care about their own lives. But I also understand why on a personal level you feel that being armed is an extra security towards protecting those you care about.

So I'm interested in what separates us. It saddens me to think that north america's safety is dependent on others around me carrying weapons. I'm a teacher and would never want me or any of my colleagues to ever be armed - of course the irony is that if we were, our odds in preventing deaths in a potential school shooting drastically increase. It all just feels too wild west for my liking.

So, respectfully, one last question. With respect to your own attitudes regarding the classic 'cold dead hands' quote, would you say that this comes out of your years in service as a Veteran or did it come before that? Was gun culture something you grew up with and if so, were you raised to see the value of a gun as a means of protection and safety?
 
I grew up in a family where guns were thought of like a shovel, or a hoe, or a toaster. Guns were just a tool. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed shooting and still do. I owned a Harrington and Richardson 12 gauge and a .410 when I was 8. My father taught me respect for firearms and how mishandeling one could maim or kill.
But my culture was rural then, and now it is again. A gun could put supper on the table, protect your chickens and livestock from predators, and your family from human predators. Now they are for mainly family protection. I mean, no offense to cops anywhere God bless'em, but they can't be everywhere all at once.
Also, my family as long as I can remember, have been survivalists-..hoping for the best, preparing for the worst from anything like nuclear war to more recently terrorist attacks.
Most people do not understand just how fragile and veneer thin our civilization really is.
A few well placed nukes , or even one big solar flare would wipe out electronics and the power grid over almost all the country. Without electricity, without working cars or trucks, we're back to the stone age. Anarchy would be the rule. Who would be around to protect my family from unfriendlies then?
Yeah, I know it seems farfetched...and dear God I hope it is...I want my kids to have a decent world to live in, not some post-apocalyptic nightmare.

So, call it paranoia if you want to, I prefer to think of it as "well prepared". And my guns are going no where.
 
Don't really get the emotion part but am still interested your opinion regarding my previous posts in response to your history lesson.

Burnt, like exo_doc I am a Army veteran with two combat tours in SE Asia. When I returned I became a police officer, later a detective, I worked with incarcerated felons and was an assistant SWAT team sniper. I was raised in a family with very long military traditions, my father, grandfather, uncles etc. that all served in the Armed Forces. All were war time vet's with service going back to the American Revolution.

Firearms were always regarded as simply a tool. Of course a potentially dangerous tool .. one to be respected and a tool that has the potential to do great damage if misused. I carried a firearm for years like I wore my clothes. As I mentioned earlier, free men, if they choose, are armed. I have a great distrust of any govt. that deems their citizens will not be allowed to have arms .. because that govt. knows what is best for the public safety. I find the current admn. in power ... suspect. The "Fast and Furious" debacle is just one case in point. I am convinced that the thousands of arms sent by the American Govt. under this AG, Eric Holder, to have been a provocation hoping for some type of incident that would rile the public where cries for more gun control would give them the excuse to whittle away at the 2nd Admn. Instead they got caught and they are still stonewalling our Congress's demands for the release of documents. Then the tragedy of Sandy Hook happened and all one has to see is how this has been exploited by the gun control advocates.

The reason I mentioned my background was simply to state that I have seen the very worst that people can do and have done to each other. Especially when there is a class of people out there that have no regard for anything but themselves. I have arrested people for shooting someone simply because they didn't move fast enough to suit them during a robbery. I have arrested people that shot someone because they were a different race than the shooter. I was in on the capture of a guy that executed two game wardens because they caught him poaching. There are some bad people out there and if they ever come by my home and family I intend to have the means to protect my family.

I don't know if this answers your question or not, but I am being as honest as I can be.

Decker
 
I grew up in a family where guns were thought of like a shovel, or a hoe, or a toaster. Guns were just a tool.

Same here. Our guns were to be left mostly untouched unless needed and treated with the respect accorded any dangerous tool. We knew people who seemed especially obsessed with owning as many guns as possible, and frankly regarded them as a bit odd. But even these people never went on human shooting sprees. We never thought of our culture as a "gun culture" per se. If anything, what we regard as today's gun culture is as much a product of the entertainment industry as anything grass roots.
 
Decker and exo_doc: I think I'm understanding your persectives much better, specifically because of both your personal backgrounds growing up with guns as tools. I really appreciate the shovel comparison! It's also quite interesting to note that you both served in the army, and Decker, you have a very prolific service career related to weapons. I have a lot of respect for individuals who are willing to do those kinds of jobs - they are, as I describe to my students, at the top of my list as jobs I would least like to have, the fire dept. and paramedics would be next on that list, and they are the ones I hold in esteem the most. Those jobs are what keeps that veneer we call civilization much thicker than thin. I also hope my kids don't have to live through an apocalypse.

In my vision of gun control i woud not see either of you as the people I think should not be allowed to have guns. The culture that you are describing sounds more like one that recognizes the responsibility and role of firearms for very functional purposes. I also imagine that you both secure your weapons in a manner that significantly reduces chances for accident or theft.

But, Decker, as you described, there are people who use these weapons for evil, b/c they have their own evil inside them. Do you not think that we need to create limits that would restrict access for those people either through background checks, courses for licensing, stricter approaches to who can sell weapons etc? I think the other prevailing question I have centers around what the media calls "assault weapons." Do either of you think that weapons that would say, obliterate an individual, or that can fire so rapidly that it allows for people to kill many in a brief period of time should be sold to the general public?

The one cultural piece I also don't share, and strikes me as being very American, is the large distrust of gov't.

On paranoia: I did not ever grow up with the notion that there were human predators out there that I needed to be prepared to defend myself against. I grew up in northern ontario where people were edgy, where many hunted, but not one of my relatives ever owned a gun. It seems to me that our attitudes differ greatly b/c of how we grew up and the professions we chose. BTW I want to thank you both for sharing your stories. I know that whenever that happens, everyone's tone shifts. I value that kind of discourse.
 
But, Decker, as you described, there are people who use these weapons for evil, b/c they have their own evil inside them. Do you not think that we need to create limits that would restrict access for those people either through background checks, courses for licensing, stricter approaches to who can sell weapons etc? I think the other prevailing question I have centers around what the media calls "assault weapons." Do either of you think that weapons that would say, obliterate an individual, or that can fire so rapidly that it allows for people to kill many in a brief period of time should be sold to the general public?

Here it is in a nutshell. How do we restrict people that should not have access to arms from getting them? The answer is ... we can't! No more than we can restrict criminals from getting illegal narcotics, or any other banned substance or item. Do you really think that 99.9% of the criminals go to a gunshop to purchase a firearm? Especially if they have a criminal record? Hell no, they buy them on the street. Contrary to what those of you that live outside the U.S. think, one can not buy a fully automatic weapon ... a machinegun, thru a legal purchase. Fully automatic weapons are banned ... unless you have a Class 3 firearms license. Under this gun banning hysteria currently going on ... legal firearms .. legal for generations .. are now on the gun banners chopping block. And the real tragedy of much of this is simply "feel good bull shit" because the bottom line is it won't mean a damn in the long run. Criminals will always get what they need to commit crimes. Hell, if I want to have something that shoots and I can't get it legally I can fabricate a cheap and disposable "one shot" wonder that will get the job done. The genie is out of the bottle. Look to Ireland during the "troubles", and the weapons the IRA got their hands on. They fought the British Army and etc. and do you think they got those weapons legally? Hell no. Ban something and watch the black market spring up .. overnight. Watch the arms dealers, much like the drug dealers get rich beyond belief. I would have thought the American govt. would have learned that from the banning of alcohol during Prohibition or more recently banning "weed". I guess they didn't. Remember when the Iron Curtain fell? Well, the rumor was that disillusioned former Red Army Officers were selling Russian nukes on the black market. Gee, I wonder who would want to have one or two of them? Talk about a real worrisome issue.

Decker
 
I grew up in northern ontario where people were edgy, where many hunted, but not one of my relatives ever owned a gun.
Burnt State, How do you grow up in Northern Ontario and not own a gun? Growing up in Minnesota I didn't know anyone with out a gun. I often had 3 rifles hanging in the back window of my truck in the school parking lot.
 
:rolleyes: This just takes the cake...
For 10 months, ATF agents in Milwaukee ran a storefront operation meant to bust criminals for gun and drug violations. But the operation inside the phony store “Fearless Distributing” didn’t take down any major drug dealers or gang members — instead, the store was robbed of $35,000 worth of merchandise, an agent’s machine gun was stolen, and a document with the names and phone numbers of undercover agents was left behind after the operation was shut down..
Machine Gun Stolen, Undercover Agents’ Names Exposed After Botched ATF Sting — Now Lawmakers Demand Answers | TheBlaze.com
 
The one cultural piece I also don't share, and strikes me as being very American, is the large distrust of gov't.

Burnt, I love my country and I will do whatever I can to protect it, but I will not trust the US government. No one should trust thier government. That's a free license for abuse and tyranny.
Governments should be afraid of the citizens, not the other way around.
How can you tell if the US government is lying?....Well, there's two infallible ways to know:
1. The government spokespersons mouth is moving.
2. The government spokespersons mouth isn't moving.

.
.
.
 
Your have right to have a weapon to defend yourself and if some scum bag with a jelly vest comes near me or my family I would not think a second to send Scum bag to his or her maker!
 
In fact, why not eliminate all the laws altogether? To see what that's like just go live in Somalia for a while and join a pirate ship. Laws are there to regulate society and the Police are there to uphold it. Just because different 'sin' cimes are more common than others, it doesn't mean you vote for the silly position of eliminating laws, or stopping new ones in order to better regulate society. Laws help to define a culture and shape society. That's why America has had what, say thirty-forty mass shootings in the last decade, whereas Norway has had what, about one? I think i'd take new laws over less if that's the net result.

Well, Burnt State, I'm not saying eliminate all laws. That would, indeed, be a silly position. My opinion is, rather, the tendency to quickly push through more poorly thought out laws at a problem can often do more harm than good. I am, actually, for laws against piracy and murder. I remain skeptical about the mad rush to ban the social evil of the day, be it guns, gambling, drugs, or alcohol. I mention the 'sin' crimes, because they are pertinent. Each of them has helped to build and establish organized crime. Having an entrenched organized crime system in the U.S. means that you create yet another source of revenue for these groups. They already have the transportation network. They already have the chaotic inner cities to use.

You mention Somalia. I'm trying to locate information on their gun laws. All I could find was that fully automatic weapons are illegal for citizens, and that handguns may be owned with a license. So, should they pass another law against automatic weapons?
Guns in Somalia: Facts, Figures and Firearm Law

But Somalia's a pretty extreme case. Let's look at something in Central America, say, Honduras. Honduras has a murder rate of 91.6 per 100K.
List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Honduran gun laws:
Assault weapons

In response to the high level of crime and violence experienced in Honduras, in 2003, the government passed a law banning several types of assault rifles from private possession. Legislative Power Decree 101-2003 gave a 90-day grace period to surrender all weapons prohibited under Article 8, along with weapons described in the new law, without fear of criminal or civil prosecution and provided an incentive of 1,000 lempiras (US$52.92) per weapon surrendered.
By definition, assault rifles are illegal in Honduras if they are capable of fully automatic fire or they fall under the make and model or caliber restricted under Article 2 of Decree 101-2003 which states:
...AK-47 rifle in all its versions. FN FAL and [Argentine] FAP 7.62mm, UZI sub machine gun, M-16 in all its versions, M60 machine gun. Sniper rifle 5.56mm in all its versions. IMI Galil rifle, Heckler & Koch G3 rifle, Beretta 5.56mm in all its versions. M21 for sharpshooters, homemade firearms, and other weapons of war the Secretary of State in the Office of Security and National Defense may consider as such.[22]
Possession of any weapon and ammunition as described above carries a sentence of eight to 10 years in prison and a fine of 5,000 to 10,000 lempiras (US$264.62-$529.24)
Gun politics in Honduras - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, all right, the argument is usually that the is the fault of the U.S. because guns are driven down from the U.S. Fine. Let's look at a country that doesn't share a border with the U.S.

Jamaica
Murder rate: 52.2 per 100K
Gun laws:
The goal was to expedite and improve enforcement of the 1967 Firearms Act,[4] which imposed licensing requirements on ownership and possession of guns and ammunition,[5] and prohibited automatic weapons entirely.[6] Firearm licences in Jamaica require a background check, inspection and payment of a yearly fee, and can make legal gun ownership difficult for ordinary citizens.[7][8] The new judicial procedures of the Gun Court Act were designed to ensure that firearms violations would be tried quickly and harshly punished.[3]
Gun politics in Jamaica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Again, the argument is that the guns are smuggled in from the U.S. Fine. But say all guns of interest were banned in the U.S. Organized crime, like all big business, is multinational. Do you think that another market would not step up to fill the breach? Unless a country can control the laws of every other country, would it make sense to pass more laws we cannot enforce?
My opinion is that the tendency to look at a single cause and solution for a social problem is short-sighted and often diversionary. There is often a rush to ban guns or violent video games or whatever people find offensive. We have a school shooting and we only talk about having more gun laws, diverting us from several topics worth discussing, including the possible role of pharmaceuticals in producing these killers, the role of violence in autism spectrum disorders (rare but relevant in these cases), and the failure of mental health services to provide effective treatment or show accountability. We talk about guns in urban crime and we talk about more gun laws instead of discussing the crushing array of problems facing U.S. cities. By mistaking one symptom for the disease, we fool ourselves that we are doing good for society.

Why has Norway (population 5 million) only had one mass shooting while the U.S. (over 313 million) has had 30-40 mass shootings? I don't entirely know. We could talk about population size, which might have something to do with it. And we could discuss the relatively lower crime rate across the board in Norway. Generally, they seem to have a more cohesive society than the U.S. But if you think that simply adopting Norway's gun laws would solve our violence problem, I'd bet against you. We're very different countries. I mentioned the Norwegian shooter because I thought it illustrated a point that more laws won't always help society, and in some cases may make it more vulnerable.
 
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