ET or Not?

[Gene Steinberg]

If you believe what they tell you, this "artificial" object is ours, not "theirs."

Approaching space object 'artificial, not asteroid' says NASA -- The Register

 

[Kandinsky]

I'd love an Arthur C Clarke 'Rama' vessel to be headed our way. Some ancient ET relic would be the best way to discover the reality of advanced ET.

In this case, it's almost certainly of Earthly origin. NASA have followed it for a while. They've done a spectral analysis that shows the albedo of the object to be unlike any natural object. In fact, the analysis supports it being one of ours....a 36 year old Russian Proton rocket stage. It reflects the same characteristics as our titanium-white painted craft. Man-Made Object Spotted Orbiting the Sun | Universe Today

Time will tell. Maybe one day a truly anomalous object will blaze a path through our system and hit the front pages. I hope so.

 

[Kevin Daly]

I'd love an Arthur C Clarke 'Rama' vessel to be headed our way. Some ancient ET relic would be the best way to discover the reality of advanced ET.

In this case, it's almost certainly of Earthly origin. NASA have followed it for a while. They've done a spectral analysis that shows the albedo of the object to be unlike any natural object. In fact, the analysis supports it being one of ours....a 36 year old Russian Proton rocket stage. It reflects the same characteristics as our titanium-white painted craft. Man-Made Object Spotted Orbiting the Sun | Universe Today

Time will tell. Maybe one day a truly anomalous object will blaze a path through our system and hit the front pages. I hope so.

I agree, both on wishing an actual ET vessel would be detected and thinking this one's probably one of ours.
Actually, I think the fact that it's obviously artificial increases the likelihood of a terrestrial origin: if you were crossing the interstellar void the hard way (not taking any shortcuts that may or may not be possible) you'd need a lot of shielding - and arguably the easiest way to handle that is to hollow out a big rock (such as an asteroid).
Still, wouldn't it be cool if it did turn out to be something anomalous? I wouldn't exclude the possibility that there are alien probes scattered throughout the solar system, so we should definitely keep our electronic eyes open.

 

[trainedobserver]

Most likely it is just our space junk coming home to roost. While I understand the comments about wishing it was something anomalous I don't know that I really share them. A few months ago I probably would have said the same thing. However, the more I read and think about the possible consequences of human society coming in contact with some "other" more advanced society, the more I really think it won't be as we might imagine or hope.

It seems logical than any truly "advanced" civilization that we imagine as spiritually advanced as they are technologically would not contact us directly in an effort to prevent the unintentional negative consequences that such a contact would certainly create. It seems that anyone that would actually fly into the system and announce themselves would be bunglers somewhere on our level and extremely dangerous (mostly unintentionally) to human society as a whole.

The best scenario for the human race is to be the "discoverers" rather than the "discovered." For this reason alone we should be pursuing the exploration of space as aggressively as possible.

I'm pretty convinced that the prospect of meeting non-human intelligences from elsewhere should scare the hell out a person for numerous reasons. Our hopes and dreams of what such contact "might be" like should be subservient to concerns about surviving such a contact and the unintentional negative effects it will have on us personally and as a human society. I think a study of the history of UFO/paranormal phenomena bears this out. I think that meeting "others" will be an incredibly disruptive and terrifying experience for the majority of mankind that will irrevocably alter the course of human history in such a manner it will be beyond our influence or control.

 

[Kandinsky]

I wouldn't exclude the possibility that there are alien probes scattered throughout the solar system, so we should definitely keep our electronic eyes open.

I enjoy speculating about probes and sentinels silently watching from anonymous orbits. A skeptic guy on ATS has suggested looking towards the Lagrangian points as a good place to find a dark satellite watching Earth. Something could be lurking out there. When Dr Richard Haines relates tales of spheres following aircraft, I can't help wondering if that's the behaviour of some type of Neumann probe?

The FTL limitation causes people to discount the possibility of ET due to insurmountable periods of time they'd take to discover us and get here. That's rational enough and makes sense. On the other hand, what if an advanced intelligence earmarked systems with the potential to generate life (spectral analysis of stars and planets?) and sent probes there?

The early Byzantines stationed coach houses at intervals dictated by how far a horse and rider could travel in a day. Riders would pass on their message to the next station and they'd ride off to the next and so forth....like a relay race. Maybe there's a more sophisticated, evolved version of this? I'm just thinking out loud

 

[Kieran]

I laugh when people suggest and make claims that Aliens are going to make Contact with us soon and Help us develop as a species. Fundamentally, Why, they would do such a thing? I will explore my own feelings, here to why, i think, they never will reveal themselves openly to us.. It be unwilling revelation, if it happens, that would be my view.

We argue as a species and we fight with each other for land and other basic needs. We have a portion of or World that lives in extreme poverty and another portion of the world get's through each day by working and the rest live beyond any human being should really in a modern advanced society( millionaires and billionaires)

We have racism that is in apparent in human society. Some People today, and in the past, have killed and will kill in the future, just because, they hate the colour of that other person's skin and some would kill, because they hate and deplore a particular faith that another human being follows ( Jew, Catholic or Muslim etc)

Would you make open contact with a species that acts like this? Would you share your technology and live among this race? Put yourself in the shoes of a SPECIES that has moved beyond the need for war and hate.

The barbaric human mind can't and will never change. Wars and fighting are part of the human psyche. So for an passive and benevolent alien race, that would be a big reason to avoid open contact, with us. They would cause more harm than good eventually( the view of the Aliens) Of course we think we are the Good Guys but the opposite is probably true. The rest of the universe think's we are dangerous and has declared us as place to be watched.

 

[Kandinsky]

The best scenario for the human race is to be the "discoverers" rather than the "discovered." For this reason alone we should be pursuing the exploration of space as aggressively as possible.

I agree on this. Finding a relic of ET tech would be preferable to being 'thrown in the deep end.'

---------- Post added at 06:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:15 PM ----------

Would you make open contact with a species that acts like this? Would you share your technology and live among this race? Put yourself in the shoes of a SPECIES that has moved beyond the need for war and hate.

Personally, I've known some dangerous characters over the years. I've worked with violent kids and sex offenders. They've all been interesting people. I wouldn't rule out contact if the species in question fell short of my ideals.

Perhaps a better example is how we watch wildlife footage of big predators killing prey? Or war journalists reporting the latest atrocities?

I'm no fan of hatred and war. Still, scientific study would fall short of it's ideals if it made moral judgements of a study group. I guess I can imagine a lot of reasons why they would make contact...and why they wouldn't.

 

[trainedobserver]

Would you make open contact with a species that acts like this? Would you share your technology and live among this race?

How could you know unless you covertly studied us for some period of time to the point where you understood the languages and most importantly the cultures of the world in question? I think that any sufficiently advanced society will have figured out some things about the adverse effects of open contact and would avoid it.

Put yourself in the shoes of a SPECIES that has moved beyond the need for war and hate.

I think that is an unreasonable expectation to have. Nothing would suggest that such a thing is possible. While folks like to rail on humanity for its shortcomings they often fail to observe the same undesirable traits in other species that we share the planet with. Animals and insects "war" on each other for territory and resources by design. In fact it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the fundamental principle behind evolution is a species ability to win in the competition for resources through any means possible to it. Nature is cruel, heartless, and brutally efficient. Our moralizing and wringing of hands over it is immaterial to the process. I'm convinced we will not encounter "space hippies" spreading love and peace throughout the galaxy before we run into "space prospectors" looking for knowledge and material to better their own societies. But that is just my opinion and thoughts at this point in time and are subject to change.

 

[Kieran]

Kandinsky. You done it as a job firstly. Interesting people sex offenders while i disagree with this. Violent kids is more complex issue than the other. However these particular problems are human societal problems and Aliens will think about their survival foremost. They will seek friends and watch potential enemies and obviously there had been some contact with off-world beings, but always a distance. Cloak and dagger stuff.

---------- Post added at 07:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:49 PM ----------

How could you know unless you covertly studied us for some period of time to the point where you understood the languages and most importantly the cultures of the world in question? I think that any sufficiently advanced society will have figured out some things about the adverse effects of open contact and would avoid it.

Not really. I believe advanced cultures would interact and reveal themselves, if they saw benefits, and had no other choice, even to do so, for their own survival. These Aliens have been here for more than hundred years perhaps thousands of years, so i think, they have figured out by now, we can't even respect ourselfs in the long term so could we respect another race from another World?
See These Aliens can still do what we like, without having to reveal anything, Which in reality does seem to be the case, when you observe the UFO phenomenon and how it acts. To equate the nature of things on the planet is all well and good. Animals eat other Animals to survive, we do too, but how, do we know for sure, that this practice doesn't disgust them? There is good reason to believe there technology is way more powerful and advanced, yet we have not being dominated or taken over and this suggests a race that might be less prone to war or conquest? You have posted some interesting points, but we, have to look at the evidence. The Phenomenon is avoiding open Contact. If they were an aggressor species and being that their craft and technology is more advanced seemly, So why not conquer? So the reasons> I outlined could be correct or even wrong really depends on how each of us view the subject of UFO'S.

 

[Kandinsky]

I guess we have a difference of opinion. I don't see humanity as being dangerous. I also struggle to imagine how an advanced civilisation (ET) would feel threatened by us.

 

[Kieran]

I guess we have a difference of opinion. I don't see humanity as being dangerous. I also struggle to imagine how an advanced civilisation (ET) would feel threatened by us.

Humanity is not Dangerous lol are you suffering from amnesia. So when Hitler and the Nazis gassed the Jews from Europe. That wasn't evil ( killing other humans because of hate) I like the German people, but a large majority of the population, back then, were well aware, of what was going on. A visiting non human race, would obviously be worried about, such acts, that have occurred throughout human history. And if Peaceful (these aliens) i would suggest they would tend to avoid such a race like us, at least, they would resist open contact here, knowing or past..

They would feel threatened and worried about us, only, because we do have the potential to explore and find out there is other species outside our World. You be foolish not to monitor a species that would be capable of doing great things in the future either for good or for bad.

 

[trainedobserver]

They would feel threatened and worried about us, only, because we do have the potential to explore and find out there is other species outside our World. You be foolish not to monitor a species that would be capable of doing great things in the future either for good or for bad.

I don't think this is the case. I think you are viewing things in a highly human-centric manner (which is understandable of course) that doesn't factor in the overwhelming insignificance of human effort in relation to the cosmos. The time and space that humanity will occupy from the moment we "fell from the trees" to the moment the last human draws its breath is infinitesimal in relation to the universe. It only follows then that our ability to wreak the galactic peace or some such is highly overestimated.

There are complex sociological and psychological reasons that would complicate direct contact that have nothing whatsoever to do with our past or future behaviors. I think those factors outweigh any perceived "unworthiness" you might find humanity guilty of by several magnitudes.

I guess my point here is that regardless of what "we" think about ourselves and our behavior or what "they" might think about us and our behavior, there are over-riding social and psychological factors that supersede those concerns that conceivably an advanced civilization would factor in before considering any contact with civilizations that they might encounter. I think the fact that we are selfish and quarreling are way down on the list of their considerations about contact with us or anyone else.

 

[Xylo]

I'm not really sure we should be placing judgement values on any possible non-earth based life form. I don't discount the possibility that life of the intelligent variety exists outside of this solar system. But who is to say that they've developed enough socially so that wars, fighting and other types of violent endeavors do not exist? I certainly wouldn't attempt to pigeon-hole any other species insuch a manner.

Years ago I heard that Humans were the only species on this planet that commited same-species murder, or killed for no reason. We find now evidences within the animal kingdom that we are not the only terrestrial species that does this. So how can we ascribe a belief of non-violence to any species we have never observed or interacted with?

This reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode; To Serve Man.

We don't know their objectives, their goals (long or short term) nor anything else about them...including their existence. Perhaps war with us would be no challenge at all...(think Death Star) so they're scouting us out, terrorizing us by kidnapping a few people along the way... some they bring back, some they just dissect in vivo.

 

[Kieran]

I don't think this is the case. I think you are viewing things in a highly human-centric manner (which is understandable of course) that doesn't factor in the overwhelming insignificance of human effort in relation to the cosmos. The time and space that humanity will occupy from the moment we "fell from the trees" to the moment the last human draws its breath is infinitesimal in relation to the universe. It only follows then that our ability to wreak the galactic peace or some such is highly overestimated.

There are complex sociological and psychological reasons that would complicate direct contact that have nothing whatsoever to do with our past or future behaviors. I think those factors outweigh any perceived "unworthiness" you might find humanity guilty of by several magnitudes.

I believe we could impact the universe greatly in the future, it doesn't matter if it is, a 100 years from now or far latter, the potential exists, so any space travelling species that would be aware of such potential, would keep track and monitor. Why would Aliens monitor Humans and Nuclear materials for example> Think here. I agree with you there is other issues to consider, beside the Unworthiness issue, that you've posted. We do wreck enough on this planet, so we have the potential again to wreck elsewhere, while you underestimate or ability to wreck in the future, another non human species might think, differently here.

 

[trainedobserver]

I believe we could impact the universe greatly in the future, it doesn't matter if it is, a 100 years from now or far latter, the potential exists, so any space travelling species that would be aware of such potential, would keep track and monitor.

I don't see it. In the cosmic scheme of things we are simply non-players. I don't see that changing in the future for numerous reasons not the least of which is our space-time resource restrictions. We don't have the access to enough time-space to make a difference to the universe and if we ever do (gain sufficient access) we will have evolved beyond anything resembling human beings long before then. That's just my opinion of course.

 

[1stEarthBattalion]

'I also struggle to imagine how an advanced civilisation (ET) would feel threatened by us.'

I find myself remembering a sequel to Jurrasic Park where there may have been people with high tech but they were not prepared to deal with the island.

There are too many factors here that could sway the arguement in any direction - also look to history where explorers ended up as tribal lunch.

Whatever or whomever is doing it - both people and animals are being harmed and we need to stop it and not just keep hording data when the crime has been commited. Like a burglary the police are overwhelmed by what to do... so...

We need to think about intelligent surviellance and rapid response to incidents - new technology should be able to help us with this - who knows we may actually get the evidence that proves what is happening or cause the events to stop through their fear of being exposed - whatever way it needs to be done.

No more victims should be accepted.

 

[Kieran]

I don't see it. In the cosmic scheme of things we are simply non-players. I don't see that changing in the future for numerous reasons not the least of which is our space-time resource restrictions. We don't have the access to enough time-space to make a difference to the universe and if we ever do (gain sufficient access) we will have evolved beyond anything resembling human beings long before then. That's just my opinion of course.

We are Non-players, only if, what is coming here is outside or sphere of influence? Well current and public understanding is, a manned mission of exploration, to other Planets, other than the moon has never happened. But the potential exists, still for us to explore further in the future. That is my basic argument.

But how do we know for sure "ET" is not close by or residing and living and hiding out somewhere on this planet?
There is six billion of us humans living on the planet. What if. Say, the're is a race of beings ( low in number) hiding out on this planet. Would they fear extinction ( IF THEY EXPOSED THEMSELVES TO US OPENLY) Well, I would fear it, if we in the minority and not the majority.

Their technology, is far more advanced, to human technology, but is it indestructible technology? There is reports of Jet fighters getting close to the UFO's.. The UFO's flew away and in a hurry sometimes and some reports claim the UFO'S were disappearing and hiding, when the jets approached, but reappeared, when they Jet fighters came back to base.

While this not conclusive of anything or prove of why they took action or moved away > maybe it is a clue? UFO'S can be damaged and that is a good reason for UFO'S here to fly away when approached by a plane carrying weaponry. There is no evidence, if the UFO'S Attacked us, they could resist or weaponry? UFO'S do seem to be made of some type of metal? That could be damaged when fired upon?

We have a number of planets within our solar system. Nine and the're is possibility of a tenth, yet unfound. The scientific mainstream view is, well the claim is, all these planet's are too hazard for life, as we know it. As we know it> (Exactly) Some of the occupants of these craft, while they seem to have a Similar body shape to us, they might breath a different atmosphere to us or have adapted to an extreme hot climate or more extreme colder planet? Without having a set foot on these planets or at least sent a probe that can explore the landscape of these planets. I Still will remain open minded to the possibility, one of these planets in our solar system having intelligent life, beside us, of course. While it nice to speculate here> UFO's are occupied by Alien-pilots that have travelled the speed of light from the universe to here. I think it more likely is, they are close by (on the planet) or located somewhere within our solar system (one of the nine planets) So my theory is> They would fear a developing and yet aggressive species that is relatively close by to them and could have Potential or the ability, in 100 to 200 years, to come to their world and cause harm?

 

[dad2059]

I like Kandinsky's retro view on a Rama-like vessel entering the Solar System, artifacts are easier to deal with than flesh and blood aliens with a different Universe-view.

But remember that Rama did have occupants, the octospiders. And the humans didn't deal with them very well.

It makes me wonder if the galaxy, or the Universe for that matter is littered with post-Singularity fossils that are planets with burned out atmospheres, oil slicks and radiation? Pre-Singularity cultures can be rough on planets.

 

[trainedobserver]

We are Non-players, only if, what is coming here is outside or sphere of influence?

Well, the only scenario where some other civilization would reasonably be concerned about us is the one that proposes the source of the UFO phenomena as being inside the solar system somewhere. I really don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that the human race will ever "threaten" anything extra-solar. We will probably continue to send robots out into inter-stellar space but any real excursion to another star by actual human beings isn't likely to happen in the foreseeable future. Interstellar war is a opium pipe dream.

No matter what it may turn out to be, I really don't think whatever is behind the UFO phenomena gives a hoot about the human race one way or another, at least not in anyway we could relate to. Our ability to create nuclear explosions might concern them but I think they have demonstrated their ability to disrupt those weapons at will.

 

[ArchieBedford]

I guess we have a difference of opinion. I don't see humanity as being dangerous. I also struggle to imagine how an advanced civilisation (ET) would feel threatened by us.

I basically agree - with the known current level of human technology and capabilities. However, it is credible that any really advanced civilization might take a long view and instigate covert pre-emptive action against possible threatening future developments.