Food for thought...

[Kieran]

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You interest me, K. I wonder how old you are, why you believe the things you do, what you get out of it all. You seem like an interesting fellow to me.

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If you really truly want to know I'm aged 33 and I am very happy in my current situation and life.

I have a honest believe in UFO's, not because I am bored with my life or anything like that. As hard as this is to rationalise, I have seen stuff that has good a fair chance of not been from around here well off-planet, were it came from really the origins I be only guessing, but I do base lot of my theories around my own personal experiences of seeing UFO's!

I have doubted my own experiences at times, did that really happen to me did it? It really hard to doubt experiences, when other people were there to see what you saw, and the memories I have, occurred in a setting were I was very much wide-awake and conscious, do any of these subjects mean help me in my life> well no it actually takes up lot of my time coming here, but I am off work till Monday so I have spare time to waste.

Sometimes honestly, I think of just giving it all up, what is the point of having endless debate on subjects, that may never be answered, but what drives me here, is my own experiences. I am well-aware these subjects have no impact on, normal day to day life, obviously I do travel outside my front door to do normal everyday stuff like shopping picking up my kids and going to work everyday normal stuff.

These memories I have, can't just deny them, something actually happened to me, by being a doubting thomas, I be only lying to myself to what took place, and that is what would be delusional not the experiences.

I've cursed the phenomenon numerous times MacDaddy!

"Why don't you show up and show the world" slightly insane thinking, and honestly, probably am the only person hearing it, but when you have real-experiences, and you get it in the neck from people, are sure you saw that really?, oh ya, you are part of that delusional crowd over there, who beliefs in the topic of UFO's, I do look to blame and do get frustrated, it not the fault of people seeing this stuff, I never wished to have seen any of this, but I don't regret that i have either though!

I guess you are wondering if any of this is true how come I have never experienced this or people you know have "why not?

I can't answer that, but this is not normal. I have no problem saying that here and now. I am well-aware of how this stuff is viewed, but I still have to be true to myself and what happened to me. I know you have hard time trusting any of this on face value, and I can't blame you either, you have not seen anything to convince you otherwise yet, but least try to respect other peoples views here and experiences whatever you may think of them!

 

[tyder001]

I finally understand Macdaddy. He is trolling. For instance instead of going out and thinking or even reading any of the researchers he just simply dismisses them. Funny cause one of the folks I mentioned did work with the "pop" icon of science fans Stephen Hawking. Another was a Noble Prize winner. Another has worked and studied for years. But, since an old washed up magician and a smirking historian tells little mac that it's all bunk he doesn't have to search any farther. No, I'm not gonna try to "prove" anything. The paranormal has some very interesting history and much study has been made over the years. As I said it's there for anybody who truly wants to look to form their own opinons about. But, instead we get character assisanation and other silly stuff. When you have no argument do a couple of tricks. First focus on spelling and grammar instead of the content. If that doesn't work simply Pooh pooh it and act as if it's all fringe. If that doens't work then challenge somebody to "provide" you the proof since you are to smart and snide to think for yourself. So, Macdaddy meets the requirements of a troll. But, ya know what's funny? If I went over to the jimmy randi forum and started calling people names and "stirring" the pot I would be banned. Funny how some "free thinkers" are about free speech.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I finally understand Macdaddy. He is trolling. For instance instead of going out and thinking or even reading any of the researchers he just simply dismisses them. Funny cause one of the folks I mentioned did work with the "pop" icon of science fans Stephen Hawking. Another was a Noble Prize winner. Another has worked and studied for years. But, since an old washed up magician and a smirking historian tells little mac that it's all bunk he doesn't have to search any farther. No, I'm not gonna try to "prove" anything. The paranormal has some very interesting history and much study has been made over the years. As I said it's there for anybody who truly wants to look to form their own opinons about. But, instead we get character assisanation and other silly stuff. When you have no argument do a couple of tricks. First focus on spelling and grammar instead of the content. If that doesn't work simply Pooh pooh it and act as if it's all fringe. If that doens't work then challenge somebody to "provide" you the proof since you are to smart and snide to think for yourself. So, Macdaddy meets the requirements of a troll. But, ya know what's funny? If I went over to the jimmy randi forum and started calling people names and "stirring" the pot I would be banned. Funny how some "free thinkers" are about free speech.

Tyder, have you been to the JREF forums? You would be ridiculed, but not banned.

 

[tyder001]

Finally, I don't beleive in U.F.O.'s personally. Well, let me rephrase that. I don't believe they are from "off planet." Military? Maybe.

Abductions? Actually I'm a skeptic. The difference is I admit that people are having an experiene. Taken by people from another world? I have had my own expereinces but I don't think it's space people. I honestly don't know.

Paranormal? Again, I've had my own expereince so yes I do know that we are more than a chemical reaction or a simple by product of the evolutionary process. But, is there reincarnation or life after death or truly a spirutual reality? I have expereinces and reasons to beleive so. But, am I sure? No, I'm not sure.

To a debunker any little respect or thought given to the paranormal is grounds for attack. That's a shame because we actually need good honest skepticism. Even be skeptical of skeptics. Or as Paul Kimbal says: Don't dis-beleive, Don't Believe. Think. 8) (I think I got that quote right.)

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Tyder, have you been to the JREF forums? You would be ridiculed, but not banned. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: ad_showthread_firstpost_sig --><!-- END TEMPLATE: ad_showthread_firstpost_sig -->

Angelo

Says volumes right there Angelo. Ridiculed huhh? Free thinkers. Riiiight!
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[Kieran]

I know Astrology has its problems, but there is something to it.

If there is nothing to Astrology, how come a A well-known Skeptic Micheal Schermer, was not able to debunk it? Of course that never got mentioned here in this thread.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

I finally understand Macdaddy. He is trolling. For instance instead of going out and thinking or even reading any of the researchers he just simply dismisses them. Funny cause one of the folks I mentioned did work with the "pop" icon of science fans Stephen Hawking. Another was a Noble Prize winner. Another has worked and studied for years. But, since an old washed up magician and a smirking historian tells little mac that it's all bunk he doesn't have to search any farther. No, I'm not gonna try to "prove" anything. The paranormal has some very interesting history and much study has been made over the years. As I said it's there for anybody who truly wants to look to form their own opinons about. But, instead we get character assisanation and other silly stuff. When you have no argument do a couple of tricks. First focus on spelling and grammar instead of the content. If that doesn't work simply Pooh pooh it and act as if it's all fringe. If that doens't work then challenge somebody to "provide" you the proof since you are to smart and snide to think for yourself. So, Macdaddy meets the requirements of a troll. But, ya know what's funny? If I went over to the jimmy randi forum and started calling people names and "stirring" the pot I would be banned. Funny how some "free thinkers" are about free speech.

Keeping a open mind ( which doesn't mean believe) and enjoy life .

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Paranormal? Again, I've had my own expereince so yes I do know that we are more than a chemical reaction or a simple by product of the evolutionary process. But, is there reincarnation or life after death or truly a spirutual reality? I have expereinces and reasons to beleive so. But, am I sure? No, I'm not sure.

That's the problem, Tyder. Those who have had a paranormal or unexplainable experience always find it hard to adequately describe their experience to others. What may be mystical or spiritual to you or I may come off sounding crazy or irrational to others. I think our language is limited in how it can describe some things. Also trying to reconcile "what the hell just happened!", to yourself is just as hard if not harder, especially if you have grown up with a very narrow set of beliefs or have been brow beaten, in some way, into accepting certain religious tenets or other fundamentalist teachings.
I think it thereby becomes a personal journey in which you may cross paths with like minded people or you may cross paths with trolls. All you can really do is be as open minded as possible (without having your brain fall out) and be as sceptical as possible without denying yourself the truth or becoming a pseudosceptical debunker. It can become a truly spiritual journey.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

That's the problem, Tyder. Those who have had a paranormal or unexplainable experience always find it hard to adequately describe their experience to others. What may be mystical or spiritual to you or I may come off sounding crazy or irrational to others. I think our language is limited in how it can describe some things. Also trying to reconcile "what the hell just happened!", to yourself is just as hard if not harder, especially if you have grown up with a very narrow set of beliefs or have been brow beaten, in some way, into accepting certain religious tenets or other fundamentalist teachings.
I think it thereby becomes a personal journey in which you may cross paths with like minded people or you may cross paths with trolls. All you can really do is be as open minded as possible (without having your brain fall out) and be as sceptical as possible without denying yourself the truth or becoming a pseudosceptical debunker. It can become a truly spiritual journey.

I totally agree Phil.
I've had strange experiences that I have explained in rational ways which are satisfactory to me. Those same explanations, say sleep paralysis, would be laughable to someone that thinks they have been abducted by an alien. An astrologer being accurate and real to one person can be a fantastic mentalist/cold reader to someone else. Look at someone like Derren Brown who seems to have supernatural powers, but he will gladly admit that he is tricking you. I highly recommend seeking out his "Derren Brown Investigates." You can find it on youtube.

 

[MacDaddy]

And I really do, do the work, i.e., I read the books, get out in the field and keep myself as up-to-speed as best I can. I'd really appreciate it if more folks out there would be motivated enough to do the same, but most people couldn't be bothered....

Christopher, we all have to budget our limited reading time. Have you thoroughly researched astrology? I mean, really read all that there is on the subject? I haven't, because it was a fairly easy call for me that there's nothing there and so to spend a lot of time investigating all the literature has to offer would be time poorly spent. The same goes for Native American lore, Egyptian pyramid lore, Judeo-Christian legends and others. Some of that stuff is interesting, but I would say not really relevant to the way the world really works. I have spent a lot of time reading about UFOs, because, if true, the potential for extending our understanding of the universe is mind-boggling. If true, the technology behind the UFOs would be very useful to us. It would be game-changing. Alas, I have concluded that there is almost certainly nothing to it but humans engaging in attention-seeking, misperception, misinterpretation and just plain story-telling. All of these factors are vastly more likely to be at the bottom of most paranormal phenomena than aliens, cryptos, or invisible trickster gods.

Your show and this community is constantly trying to put forward the idea that there is something useful in all of this. Why else keep relating the anecdotes? Implicit in all of the storytelling is that we can use the knowledge of the Hopis to extend our understanding of the universe, that the Illuminati know things about the universe that we could profit from, that ESP can increase our understanding, that there is alien technology that made the stacking of the pyramid stones easy. So far, though, not a single one of these concepts has produced a useful tool or promising avenue of research. All of the useful things have been produced by science, much maligned and even sneered at on this board. The computer you're using is possible because of a really far-fetched and paranormal property of the universe called quantum mechanics. Nobody really understands it, but scientists have done a great job of researching it as thoroughly as possible and using the knowledge acquired to advance the human race. That's not happening in the UFO field. That's not happening in psychic research. The ghostbusters have not increased our understanding of anything except maybe human nature. These fields seem to be dead ends, but this community will persist in propping them up artificially with unscientific babble. That's not helping. That's just stringing yourself and others along because it's fun.

I post the things I post because it's kind of fun to see humans struggle to defend their pet religions. These theories must be fun to cling to because people do cling to them in the face of overwhelming evidence that the world works in a completely different way. I wonder what it must be like to have that kind of faith, whether it's in the Bible or Roswell or poor old Betty Hill.

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First focus on spelling and grammar instead of the content.

I have never once commented on your grammar or spelling. Not once. Typos are too common. My wife once brought home a church bulletin asking for people to help work with developmentally disabled kids. The headline read "We're looking for some herpes!" The 'p' is very close to the 'o' on the keyboard. But I understood what they meant.

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Tyder, have you been to the JREF forums? You would be ridiculed, but not banned.

I am constantly being ridiculed here. I can't take it, I tell you, I can't take it!

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I know Astrology has its problems, but there is something to it. If there is nothing to Astrology, how come a A well-known Skeptic Micheal Schermer, was not able to debunk it? Of course that never got mentioned here in this thread.

K, you never fail to make my day. We just gotta have a drink sometime.

 

[tyder001]

Originally Posted by tyder001
First focus on spelling and grammar instead of the content.
<!-- END TEMPLATE: bbcode_quote -->I have never once commented on your grammar or spelling. Not once. Typos are too common. My wife once brought home a church bulletin asking for people to help work with developmentally disabled kids. The headline read "We're looking for some herpes!" The 'p' is very close to the 'o' on the keyboard. But I understood what they meant.


I didn't make myself real clear that time. I just meant it was something I've noticed in general. To be fair not just so called skeptics do it. It's a trick I've seen political folks and religious folks and just about any other kind of human ya want to name do.

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[Angel of Ioren]

I post the things I post because it's kind of fun to see humans struggle to defend their pet religions.

We see eye to eye on a lot of stuff, so I want you to keep posting here. However, what you say there is pretty much the definition of trolling, which I think is beneath you. Discussions are great, but if you troll (which I don't think you're doing right now, but you're teetering on the edge), no one will take you seriously and there's no fun in that. We need actual skeptics in this forum since most will never come here, so please don't get yourself blacklisted by the other members - I don't want that.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

I post the things I post because it's kind of fun to see humans struggle to defend their pet religions. These theories must be fun to cling to because people do cling to them in the face of overwhelming evidence that the world works in a completely different way. I wonder what it must be like to have that kind of faith, whether it's in the Bible or Roswell or poor old Betty Hill.

I sincerely agree with much of what you said on your post. The only thing that strikes me as possibly negative is the aforementioned part, where you confess your interest in watching others fencing their belief systems. Everyone has a point of view (ones a more rigid one, others with a bit more flexibility) that can be read as a belief or even, in the extreme, as a religion (we can't resume a person's complexity to a few posts on a forum). I too like to position myself outside the ongoing struggle between seemingly irrational factions. However, that should never generate the idea that one is on an upper lever in regards to others, like a zoologist observing two animals fighting. If we strip the discussions held here of their temporal and cultural guises, we'll see that the arguments are always the same throughout the ages: eternal quarrels between religion and science, belief and atheism, credulity and skepticism. Frequently these subjects are tackled on a lighter tone, for this isn't a formal environment, but the discussions are often quite deep on a philisophical level. No real science or important breakthrough will ever be done here. Me, you or anyone else won't change the conception of the world others bring to this forum, but exchanging ideas, no matter how different they are, is always a nice exercise.

 

[MacDaddy]

We see eye to eye on a lot of stuff, so I want you to keep posting here. However, what you say there is pretty much the definition of trolling, which I think is beneath you

Very little is beneath me, but I take your point. But what if there are people on this forum who are teetering on the edge, trying to decide on a rational world view or a "demon-haunted world?" Might not at least some of these seekers be persuaded into the clean fresh air of critical thinking? I'd like to think so. And certainly you have no inherent issue with laughter? One of my favorite Mark Twain quotes:

Power, Money, Persuasion, Supplication, Persecution--these can lift at a colossal humbug,--push it a little-- crowd it a little--weaken it a little, century by century: but only Laughter can blow it to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of Laughter nothing can stand.

Do you not agree that there is a lot of humbug on this forum? I say we laugh at it a little. I have made good points on this forum, most of which have not been addressed head-on by anyone. I didn't invent the snide tone here, but I'm not above using it from time to time. Maybe I should be, but I'm not.

 

[tyder001]

The thing is I'm not a doe eyed believer in anything. I do have my beliefs but they are hard won and evolving as I go along. But, anytime anybody simply acts as if they have all the answers I have a knee jerk negative reaction. Thing is I've been called a witch by certain religous people. A new age nut by others. I've been called an atheist by some and a wacko by others. I'm sure in just a brief time on these boards that Angelo can vouch that I'm no athiest. But, I'm not a religous fanatic either. I actually named names of scientist (Not simply new age writers) and yet the only response was "bunk." Which is as silly and closed minded as any religous fundi I've ever heard. Now I am not going to do somebody's home work and link argument after argument to defend research or even my own opinion. I happen to be one of those weird folks who believes in evolution on the evidence of what I've read (for myself) and yet also has spritual beliefs on the evidence of what I've lived (for myself) I honestly have very thought out reasons why I'm not an atheist. But I also have very thought out reasons why I am no longer a Born again bible thumping evangelical Chrisitan. I do respect the faith of my youth and I still have a grounding in it. But, I'm more of a Agnostic when it comes to matters of religion these days. I call myself a Christian Agnostic but that seems to offend both the religous and the none religous so I try not to use the term as much as I did at one time. Anyway, I enjoy good conversation but I don't like bullies and I want get into a "link" war with one.

Peace. 8)

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Very little is beneath me, but I take your point. But what if there are people on this forum who are teetering on the edge, trying to decide on a rational world view or a "demon-haunted world?" Might not at least some of these seekers be persuaded into the clean fresh air of critical thinking? I'd like to think so. And certainly you have no inherent issue with laughter? One of my favorite Mark Twain quotes:

Power, Money, Persuasion, Supplication, Persecution--these can lift at a colossal humbug,--push it a little-- crowd it a little--weaken it a little, century by century: but only Laughter can blow it to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of Laughter nothing can stand.

Do you not agree that there is a lot of humbug on this forum? I say we laugh at it a little. I have made good points on this forum, most of which have not been addressed head-on by anyone. I didn't invent the snide tone here, but I'm not above using it from time to time. Maybe I should be, but I'm not.

I totally agree that there's a lot of humbug in this forum, and much of it comes from the fact that we are reading words on a screen, so it's hard to get tone across sometimes.
I'm not one of the people you should worry about. I fall on the side of Phil Plait with his "Don't be a Dick" argument. He got a lot of flack for that speech, but I agree with him. I posted it on this forum somewhere.


PS I am not call you a dick.

 

[MacDaddy]

I confess that I am not solely posting for the fun of seeing people scramble to defend nonsense. That's part of it, but not all of it. I mentioned my long-standing interest in UFOs, mainly because the potential for bettering the human condition is so great if there's anything to the phenomenon besides human misadventure. I still hold out hope for the reality of some cases and this forum has led me to investigate some of them further. Take the Rendlesham Forest incident. I've been there, I've seen the terrain. I think it very likely that most of the multi-night event was the result of misidentified stars and a nearby lighthouse. Certainly, Colonel Halt's own tape clearly indicates that the light he was seeing was pulsing in exactly the same frequency (about five seconds or so) as the nearby lighthouse light. This was just about a deal-breaker for me. But the Penniston testimony and apparent corroboration has piqued my interest. Either he actually walked around and touched a still-warm machine with glyphs on it which subsequently flew away in a paranormal manner, or he is an attention-seeking person who is lying about it. And there seem to be other soldiers who sort of back him up on at least part of his story. But I don't know... I think the most likely explanation lies in misperception and attention-seeking behavior because there's so much of that going around... but I don't know. I can't tell by looking at the guy, he seems pretty sincere. But the odds are what they are. Most UFO sightings, if they are resolved at all, prove to be misperceptions and hoaxes. But I don't know. I assign a non-zero probability to the truth of the Penniston testimony and that's enough to keep me interested.

I would be interested in your thoughts, Angelo.

 

[Angel of Ioren]

I confess that I am not solely posting for the fun of seeing people scramble to defend nonsense. That's part of it, but not all of it. I mentioned my long-standing interest in UFOs, mainly because the potential for bettering the human condition is so great if there's anything to the phenomenon besides human misadventure. I still hold out hope for the reality of some cases and this forum has led me to investigate some of them further. Take the Rendlesham Forest incident. I've been there, I've seen the terrain. I think it very likely that most of the multi-night event was the result of misidentified stars and a nearby lighthouse. Certainly, Colonel Halt's own tape clearly indicates that the light he was seeing was pulsing in exactly the same frequency (about five seconds or so) as the nearby lighthouse light. This was just about a deal-breaker for me. But the Penniston testimony and apparent corroboration has piqued my interest. Either he actually walked around and touched a still-warm machine with glyphs on it which subsequently flew away in a paranormal manner, or he is an attention-seeking person who is lying about it. And there seem to be other soldiers who sort of back him up on at least part of his story. But I don't know... I think the most likely explanation lies in misperception and attention-seeking behavior because there's so much of that going around... but I don't know. I can't tell by looking at the guy, he seems pretty sincere. But the odds are what they are. Most UFO sightings, if they are resolved at all, prove to be misperceptions and hoaxes. But I don't know. I assign a non-zero probability to the truth of the Penniston testimony and that's enough to keep me interested.

I would be interested in your thoughts, Angelo.

Well, the recent news on that case piles on to the doubt I've had about it for a long time. He seems to keep making more stuff up. He seems to want attention.

As I have said before, I used to totally believe in all of the paranormal stuff, even up to a few years ago. I've been a believer, but now there's nothing to it in my mind. I remember worrying about ghosts and aliens. Not having those things to think about is liberating.

 

[MacDaddy]

So why do you hang out here?

 

[Angel of Ioren]

So why do you hang out here?

It's the one forum where there are so many opinions on one type of topic that it makes it really interesting. Plus, I feel like I'm a member of the community after so long and so many posts.
It's funny because David closed the first thread i started and almost banned me for making a Billy M joke. I said that I donated money to him and he didn't get my joke.

If you go back and look at my posts, you'll see my evolution from a somewhat believer to a pretty hard nosed skeptic. I cringe when I look at some of the stuff i wrote even just two years ago.

 

[tyder001]

Well I hang out for the chicks!

Just kiddin...I kid the atheist.

---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------

I cringe when I look at some of the stuff i wrote even just two years ago.

Lol, I cringe at some of the stuff you write now. <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: ad_showthread_firstpost_sig --><!-- END TEMPLATE: ad_showthread_firstpost_sig -->