Government Secrecy, Justified or Not?

[CapnG]

For the record Music, I have heard that particular episode of C2C and intially after hearing it I thought "So what? Disclose it! Humanity has to grow up dammit!" but upon further reflection, I've realized we don't WANT to grow up. We're Toys R Us kids!

And there's a million kinds of foolishness for us to play with!
(Everyone sing along!)
From bombs to AIDS to cholera strains,
Earth's the biggest toy store there is!
So we don't wanna grow up, cuz if we did...
We might actually realize how badly we've fucked things up.

 

[Ron Collins]

I’m sure I will take some fire for this but... Here are my thoughts.

1. I guess I just have a hard time thinking that the "Gub'ment" would deceive us all for no good reason. Yeah, maybe I am naïve but what would it gain the power holders? Don’t give the “to stay in power” crap. I have not seen any evidence of a subversive power elite. Hell, politics in the US change 180 degrees every 4 to eight years. This is exactly why we are so loved in the world.

2. I think that back in the middle to late 40's we would not have handled “disclosure” very well. I think that today we would handle it better but I guarantee that the stock market would falter, suicides would peak, and there would be religious upheaval. Maybe not in an utterly debilitating way but it would be noticeable.

3. Fear of the unknown is always met with public silence. Better to wait until you have the facts than to spread false information. One can easily imagine that if those in a power position were confronted with a craft and bodies, they would have some major questions. One can also follow that logic and see the trouble if those answers were not forthcoming. Perhaps they are still not answered. Ive read at least 10 different major opinions of what this UFO/being phenomenon might be. Perhaps they have only begun to narrow the possibilities.

4. What will the ramifications of disclosure be? To what net benefit?

5. How do they disclose this and avoid the witch-hunt shit storm to follow?

Do I think that the fear of these things should keep us in the dark now? No, but I think it was probably the smart thing to do 60 or 70 years ago. Anyone who truly believes in the Constitution of the United States of America, must surely see that the people can not possible decide the true course of this country (yes I believe that our votes really do matter) without being properly informed. Hopefully, we have a much better grasp of what this all means by now, but if not we are certainly more mentally prepared fro it now. Back then, when the "Don’t tell the public." thing began, it was probably the best thing to do.

 

[musictomyears]

Musictomyears,

The masses don't want to be educated.

I know. Sad but true.

 

[musictomyears]

Back then, when the "Don’t tell the public." thing began, it was probably the best thing to do.

Maybe. The only problem with this scenario is that, to this day, private researchers who get too close to the UFO/advanced propulsion/free energy reality wind up paying dearly for their curiosity. It is this aspect of the cover-up that I personally object to very strongly.

 

[Ron Collins]

Back then, when the "Don’t tell the public." thing began, it was probably the best thing to do.

Maybe. The only problem with this scenario is that, to this day, private researchers who get too close to the UFO/advanced propulsion/free energy reality wind up paying dearly for their curiosity. It is this aspect of the cover-up that I personally object to very strongly.

You know, I keep hearing this from people but never with any detail. I have listened to very high profile researchers in interviews when they are asked if someone from the military or some government agency has ever warned them off and they all say no. So where is the proof this even happens?

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Back then, when the "Don’t tell the public." thing began, it was probably the best thing to do.

Maybe. The only problem with this scenario is that, to this day, private researchers who get too close to the UFO/advanced propulsion/free energy reality wind up paying dearly for their curiosity. It is this aspect of the cover-up that I personally object to very strongly.

You know, I keep hearing this from people but never with any detail. I have listened to very high profile researchers in interviews when they are asked if someone from the military or some government agency has ever warned them off and they all say no. So where is the proof this even happens?

Greer and some of his team mates had a "strange cancer". Some read into it as foul play. There's other stories like that. Nothing I consider proof though.

 

[rpjmartin]

Back then, when the "Don’t tell the public." thing began, it was probably the best thing to do.

Maybe. The only problem with this scenario is that, to this day, private researchers who get too close to the UFO/advanced propulsion/free energy reality wind up paying dearly for their curiosity. It is this aspect of the cover-up that I personally object to very strongly.

You know, I keep hearing this from people but never with any detail. I have listened to very high profile researchers in interviews when they are asked if someone from the military or some government agency has ever warned them off and they all say no. So where is the proof this even happens?

Greer and some of his team mates had a "strange cancer". Some read into it as foul play. There's other stories like that. Nothing I consider proof though.

Right, I'll give you an example you may or may not be aware of. I generally support Steven Greer's Disclosure Project. (His methods, the exopolitics/weaponisation of space and the new agey stuff are other issues.) But when he was asked, on the Paracast recently, whether any members of the DP had been threatened, he replied 'no'. This is not true. I will give you a long story short.

There was a man who appeared at the 2001 NPC event called John Maynard. John Maynard was held incommunicado somewhere in the US, threatened, forced to live on the run in the US. I was fortunate to meet John twice in the UK. Unfortunately I haven't seen him for quite some time. I will imagine that you will disregard or mock this short, compacted retelling but I think people should know that going public doesn't always guarantee your safety. For reasons I'm not privy to, John's harrassment and imprisonment were issues on which Steven Greer's claims of protection for his group became utterly meaningless.

I don't hold Steven Greer responsible in any way as John had made his decision to speak publicly and then hold forth on the subject with me and others on certain forums and privately. We were all grateful and felt flattered he would spend a lot of his time telling us what he felt he could, within the parameters of his security oath.

Anyway, enough of my tales. Just thought I'd share some of my own, limited involvement with anyone who is interested.

Rich

 

[Ron Collins]

Back then, when the "Don’t tell the public." thing began, it was probably the best thing to do.

Maybe. The only problem with this scenario is that, to this day, private researchers who get too close to the UFO/advanced propulsion/free energy reality wind up paying dearly for their curiosity. It is this aspect of the cover-up that I personally object to very strongly.

You know, I keep hearing this from people but never with any detail. I have listened to very high profile researchers in interviews when they are asked if someone from the military or some government agency has ever warned them off and they all say no. So where is the proof this even happens?

Greer and some of his team mates had a "strange cancer". Some read into it as foul play. There's other stories like that. Nothing I consider proof though.

Come on, Greer is a "Strange Cancer". Anything that moron has to say is immediately filed in the big bin of BS. Besides, he should just be able to pop a fresh set of batteries in his trusty flash light and ask the alien brothers to cure him.

 

[Ron Collins]

There was a man who appeared at the 2001 NPC event called John Maynard. John Maynard was held incommunicado somewhere in the US, threatened, forced to live on the run in the US. I was fortunate to meet John twice in the UK. Unfortunately I haven't seen him for quite some time. I will imagine that you will disregard or mock this short, compacted retelling but I think people should know that going public doesn't always guarantee your safety. For reasons I'm not privy to, John's harrassment and imprisonment were issues on which Steven Greer's claims of protection for his group became utterly meaningless.

I don't hold Steven Greer responsible in any way as John had made his decision to speak publicly and then hold forth on the subject with me and others on certain forums and privately. We were all grateful and felt flattered he would spend a lot of his time telling us what he felt he could, within the parameters of his security oath.

Anyway, enough of my tales. Just thought I'd share some of my own, limited involvement with anyone who is interested.

Rich

I'm not going to mock you, I do not get that personal. I just have my opinions. I like those opinions to have as much background as possible to help me form them though. This in mind, I have just read 3 interviews with John Maynard.

1. My copy of Greer's book, "Disclosure".
2. http://www.surfingtheapocalypse.com/maynard.html
3. http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/sdi/program/backgrounders/234bg.html

If you take the time to read these, and I don’t recommend it (zzzzzzzz), you see that every time this guy is interviewed the story starts expanding. He is like a mother ship of information. It never ceases to amaze me that these super witnesses inevitably have some diatribe about security compartmentalization and then delight in telling you how their circumstance allowed them to bypass it.

Honestly, I think we all know there were two groups that went to the NPC that day. The Greer-Stone whack jobs (attention whores) and the Pope-Salas group (serious folks). Push comes to shove; I put Maynard at Greer’s table for the banquet.

I do respect you opinion, and I have never met the guy. But my BS-O-METER was redlining when I read what this guy had to say.

 

[musictomyears]

Try this guy. I knew him. He was poisoned weeks after being granted building consent for his first factory. He refused to sell out to the big boys. Now he's dead.

<embed style="width:400px; height:326px;" id="VideoPlayback" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-3333992194168790800&hl=en" flashvars=""> </embed>

I've had stuff happen to me also. I decided that it wasn't worth it, to risk my life and my sanity. Humanity as a whole isn't ready... We don't even use clean conventional technologies, such as solar. Never mind being ready to welcome space aliens. No way.

If only people would realise that this game revolves around possession and control of advanced technologies, *not* some stupid lights in the sky. Why is this so difficult to understand?

You can talk and write about UFOs as much as you like, you can climb up the Empire State Building and scream from the top of your lungs. No secret government/corporate agency will give a damn. But stick your nose a little too deep into unconventional propulsion systems and energy generation... That's a whole different story.

 

[Ron Collins]

I've had stuff happen to me also. I decided that it wasn't worth it, to risk my life and my sanity. Humanity as a whole isn't ready... We don't even use clean conventional technologies, such as solar. Never mind being ready to welcome space aliens. No way.

I don’t mean to nitpick, but what does using clean energy have to do with having the mental readiness to "welcome space aliens". Listen, I appreciate that there is a mix of geopolitical motivations involved in keeping disclosure from happening but you can’t honestly believe that to be a valid one...right?

Now, do I think that there could be a "don’t let the clean energy ruin our oil profits" type of conspiracy....I give it a 5 on the believable scale (1-10).

But again in my mind, this doesn’t make a bunch of sense. Big time generals in the Pentagon are taking big time heat for casualties. They aren’t going to take that kind of heat (career ending heat) by sacrificing soldiers to keep profits they never see rising. Even if one or two would, you would not sustain that over a longer period. Look at the changes in the General staff over the course of the war. That is a bunch of co-conspirators selling their honor you’re talking about and for what gain?

I think it is easy to keep a secret as a part of National Security when you believe in it. But it sounds like you are suggesting that it is really all about keeping this technology to ourselves. So I ask you this, how has it helped us? We have not deployed this technology in any war. Believe me, we could use a system that was as maneuverable at low altitudes and never had to refuel. Close Air Support is typically on station for only a few minutes. Maybe 15 to 20 minutes at the absolute extreme. If the Army, Nave, or Air Force could deliver CAS indefinitely, that is the difference in literally thousands of lives. If you could use it as a troop transport, nothing big, 14 to 24 troops, it would be the difference in thousands of military and civilian lives. The potential benefits go on and on.

I just can not believe that there are generals in the pentagon who have the power to create these things and say no. The only reason to keep them secret is to weaponize them. The only way to get a good weapon out of those programs is to deploy it.

Anyway, thanks for posting the video. I'll check him out.

 

[musictomyears]

RonCollins, sorry for being a bit blunt here, but the question is not whether or not *you* think that a cover-up makes sense, but what is actually occurring on the ground. If those people who are obsessed with controlling our lives were anything other than criminally insane, we wouldn't have this discussion. Let me also say - and I don't want you to take this personally - that there are millions of armchair researchers who think they know it all, because they have read a few books and watched a few videos. They know Jack shit. Unless you have mixed with people who actually work in this field, you are clueless.

The superpowers already have at their disposal sufficient destructive power to blow up the entire planet, *several**times**over*. They don't need any faster planes, bigger bombs or cheaper fuels. They don't even need more money - or if they would, they'd simply print more. The elite operates outside of what regular people like you and me consider normal.

The magic word is "control". Control over populations, control over land and other assets, control over resources. Money is only a tool for exerting control, and wars the means for frightening populations into submission. If you expect to detect straight forward logic in the actions of the elite, you are barking up the wrong tree. Their particular brand of logic is irrational.

Free energy - and by extension information about UFOs - is being suppressed because governments and corporations do not want exotic technologies to be used *by anyone*, including their own military and official space programmes. It is a Pandora's box that, once opened, can never be closed. There is no "let's have a bit of anti-gravity here, and a bit of over-unity there". It doesn't work like that.

Whoever reads this is free to disagree with me, and not believe a single word. Be my guest. However, you can't say you haven't been warned.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Back then, when the "Don’t tell the public." thing began, it was probably the best thing to do.

Maybe. The only problem with this scenario is that, to this day, private researchers who get too close to the UFO/advanced propulsion/free energy reality wind up paying dearly for their curiosity. It is this aspect of the cover-up that I personally object to very strongly.

You know, I keep hearing this from people but never with any detail. I have listened to very high profile researchers in interviews when they are asked if someone from the military or some government agency has ever warned them off and they all say no. So where is the proof this even happens?

Greer and some of his team mates had a "strange cancer". Some read into it as foul play. There's other stories like that. Nothing I consider proof though.

Come on, Greer is a "Strange Cancer". Anything that moron has to say is immediately filed in the big bin of BS. Besides, he should just be able to pop a fresh set of batteries in his trusty flash light and ask the alien brothers to cure him.

I'm not a fan of Greer's, merely stating what I've heard. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't.

 

[Ron Collins]

RonCollins, sorry for being a bit blunt here, but the question is not whether or not *you* think that a cover-up makes sense, but what is actually occurring on the ground. If those people who are obsessed with controlling our lives were anything other than criminally insane, we wouldn't have this discussion. Let me also say - and I don't want you to take this personally - that there are millions of armchair researchers who think they know it all, because they have read a few books and watched a few videos. They know Jack shit. Unless you have mixed with people who actually work in this field, you are clueless.

The Question was “Government Secrecy, Justified or Not?” with an opinion poll at the top… Yes, it is about my opinion. I have freely admitted, on this forum no less, that I am merely a 3rd string arm-chair QB. So….treat me like I know jack shit and give me some valid reasons to believe you.

Understand, that I fully expect you and others to type some insult laden diatribe about how stupid I am and how I don’t get it. Mind you, these are the same people that bitch and groan about others who, lacking proof, float the “Believe me, I know. My neighbor was in the CIA!” mantra.

The superpowers already have at their disposal sufficient destructive power to blow up the entire planet, *several**times**over*. They don't need any faster planes, bigger bombs or cheaper fuels. They don't even need more money - or if they would, they'd simply print more. The elite operates outside of what regular people like you and me consider normal.

Do you honestly believe this? Yes, superpowers and some not-so-super powers have nuclear arms. The reason they will not be used was clearly defined during the cold war…Mutual Assured Destruction. Nuclear weapons are a status symbol. They are the essentially price of admission for better digs at the UN.

Modern Warfare is not about this. Modern warfare concentrates on relatively small units with ultra mission specific tactical advantages. We need faster and more tactically specific planes, vehicles, and ships/boats to accomplish specific missions. During the planning stages of these missions, it is the small incidentals that occupy the commanders. Things like, how do we provide emergency extraction, how much and what supplies are needed for the mission. Things like, how much fuel a plane or helicopter will need to stay on station are not to be glossed over.

Your basic theme is “Its all about the money. The sooner you realize this the better off you’ll be.” I don’t disagree with this. However, take a look at the opposite side for a minute. The US military spends a bunch of money to train each soldier. In 1998 it was almost 65k per soldier on average. That’s just basic training. Add the money to equip, maintain, feed, and transport these troops and that is a huge investment per soldier.

Frankly, you are talking like someone who has a mega-preconceived notion about the military and those who run it. It’s a bit of duality really.

The magic word is "control". Control over populations, control over land and other assets, control over resources. Money is only a tool for exerting control, and wars the means for frightening populations into submission. If you expect to detect straight forward logic in the actions of the elite, you are barking up the wrong tree. Their particular brand of logic is irrational.

Wow, this is staring to sound familiar.

=== From the movie “So I married an Axe Murderer”
Stuart: Well, it's a well known fact, Sonny Jim, that there's a secret society of the five wealthiest people in the world, known as The Pentavirate, who run everything in the world, including the newspapers, and meet tri-annually at a secret country mansion in Colorado, known as The Meadows.
Tony: So who's in this Pentavirate?
Stuart: The Queen, The Vatican, The Gettys, The Rothschilds, and Colonel Sanders before he went tits up. Oh, I hated the Colonel with is wee beady eyes, and that smug look on his face. "Oh, you're gonna buy my chicken! Ohhhhh!"
====

Free energy - and by extension information about UFOs - is being suppressed because governments and corporations do not want exotic technologies to be used *by anyone*, including their own military and official space programmes. It is a Pandora's box that, once opened, can never be closed. There is no "let's have a bit of anti-gravity here, and a bit of over-unity there". It doesn't work like that.

So, let me get this straight… “Governments” (plural) and “Corporations” (also plural) all get together (ostensibly at The Meadows every third Teusday) and agree on this? Really? You don’t think…and I’m just throwing this out there, that “Corporations” would use this technology to increase profit margins?

Whoever reads this is free to disagree with me, and not believe a single word. Be my guest. However, you can't say you haven't been warned.

Well, I do disagree with you. Listen, National Security concerns are why the US government has not embraced disclosure. I don’t have the foggiest clue why others have also opted to stay silent. Maybe, its because they don’t know what the hell it is. As for the Pentavirate, I think that is a separate thread.

 

[musictomyears]

Understand, that I fully expect you and others to type some insult laden diatribe about how stupid I am and how I don’t get it.
...
Your basic theme is “Its all about the money.
...
Listen, National Security concerns are why the US government has not embraced disclosure. I don’t have the foggiest clue why others have also opted to stay silent. Maybe, its because they don’t know what the hell it is. As for the Pentavirate, I think that is a separate thread.

If you "expect" to get insulted, then it will eventually happen. However, not from me. I'm here to have purposeful discussions.

No, it's not about the money. I mentioned earlier that the Rockefellers of this world simply print money, when they need more. Only the uneducated masses believe money is the most valuable property. It isn't. Much more valuable than pieces of paper with numbers on them is control over the destiny of entire nations, and ultimately the human race. Can you imagine what kind of kick the elite gets out of plotting the next war, the next corporate merger, or the next round of tax breaks for themselves? Perhaps you can't. But that's what makes them get out of bed in the morning. They already are incredibly rich. They don't need more money. They are obsessed with control - controlling you, me, and everybody else.

You say that you "don’t have the foggiest clue why others have also opted to stay silent". I tried to explain that this dance revolves around controlling technology, but has little to do with lights in the sky or visitors from other planets. I also tried to explain why the corporations don't need to sell exotic technologies to us, in order to make a profit. They have realised that all they need to do is repackage the same old stuff - such as internal combustion engines - and people will happily buy it. We get what we ask for. Since we don't ask for clean and affordable ways of generating energy, do we not get any. It is quite simple.

It is also not a question of what I believe. I have experienced a number of situations which made me realise how the world works. I used to mix with very successful business people who also pursued their interest in UFOs and so called "Free Energy". One told me that he had seen lists with names of multinational corporations that participate in the suppression of advanced technologies. Another told me that when he tried to market a over-unity device, the secret service of his country closed him down. BTW, it is my understanding that covert operations are executed by small, yet highly sophisticated organisations that operate globally.

I'm afraid, unless you have mixed with people who work in this field, you are clueless as to what is going on. Your personal theories about what makes sense, or what the military needs or doesn't need, or what seems plausible or implausible, are without consequence.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

They are obsessed with control - controlling you, me, and everybody else.

If there really is an elite group of power brokers, perhaps obsession with discharging strength is a better formulation than control. Control is just one of the most obvious effects of discharging strength or power. Nietzsche calls this "the will to power."

 

[Ron Collins]

Corporations not introducing new technology? Again, this doesnt fly. You give me a new widget that does something better than the old widget or better yet is a conceptually new widget and what you have is called technological capitalism. People will buy it and I would make a profit! It happens everyday all across the world.

It just doesnt make sense. These power elite getting together and planning everything? It's just not probable. This is the sort of things people make up when they do not want to take responsibility for the things that have occured in their life. Or when a society does not want to take responsibility. Its easy to blame the rich guy. "He doesn't have any problems, he's rich." Or the huge multinational corporation. "That evil company is responsible for X, Y, and Z."

Personally, I think it is absurd to think in a world economy that exists today that we are essentially ruled by a power elite and moved about as pawns in our daily lives. I dont buy it.

 

[CapnG]

Personally, I think it is absurd to think in a world economy that exists today that we are essentially ruled by a power elite and moved about as pawns in our daily lives. I dont buy it.

Here's a new twist on an old chestnut- The electric car:

http://zenncars.com/

These cars are manufactured in Quebec and yet it is illegal to own and operate one in Canada.

 

[musictomyears]

Personally, I think it is absurd to think in a world economy that exists today that we are essentially ruled by a power elite and moved about as pawns in our daily lives. I dont buy it.

You see, Ron, I have full sympathy for your opinion. I used to react in *exactly* the same way, when, some 10 years ago, I proudly jumped onto the scene and vowed to make the world a better place. There was a guy with a PhD in physics who had been following Free Energy for a long time, and he bluntly told me that my efforts would amount to nothing, that I was wasting my time. Professionally, he had been employed by governments around the world to install communications devices (I am not going to compromise him by giving out any specifics). He was the one that told me about lists of corporations that not only withhold, but *suppress* exotic technologies. I laughed at him. I told him, similar to what you are saying now, that corporations are out to make a profit, and will jump at any opportunity to market a product the competition can't match. I told him that I could perhaps imagine that a few select corporations, such as oil companies, would get together and try to keep alternative technologies off the market. But a Grand Conspiracy, involving *all* governments and *all* leading corporations? Never. I didn't buy it.

And then I started to promote Free Energy technologies myself, by calling up leading mainstream scientists, leading print media, the inventors of exotic devices, and by organising public meetings... Basically, I made a big noise and a big fuss, because I believed that this was all it takes to wake up the slumbering masses.

Yeah, right.

Within only a couple of weeks, there were stalkers following me around in the streets, I kid you not. I am as sure as I can be that somebody broke into my flat, didn't take anything, but made paper copies of my computer files. At a meeting that was closed to the public and invitation only, somebody walked in with a photo-copied version of a real printed invitation, was unknown to anyone in the room, didn't participate in the discussion, but was there quite obviously to check us out. Finally, after returning home from another meeting, a young chap with a military demeanour released some poison gas on me. To this day, I do not know if this was meant to kill me outright, or to serve as a warning.

Our world is a fool's paradise. For people who have seen the other side, it is very difficult to convey what they experienced. Eventually, they give up. I have given up.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Personally, I think it is absurd to think in a world economy that exists today that we are essentially ruled by a power elite and moved about as pawns in our daily lives. I dont buy it.

Here's a new twist on an old chestnut- The electric car:

http://zenncars.com/

These cars are manufactured in Quebec and yet it is illegal to own and operate one in Canada.

Yeah good one Cap.
We had a similar type of car built here in South Australia (can't remember the name) but the Australian Motoring body who licenses all vehicles deemed it not roadworthy in Australia. The company had to move to Western Australia where, at the latest date they were still hoping for approval.
If any other Aussies out there can fill in the blanks to this story , please go ahead.

Here is a link that i posted on another thread to alternative fuels.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=HiRCTe4F3nk