Great interview

[tyder001]

So clearly it is sort of brain generated but not and that’s the danger of the trap we’re falling into of assuming that because these things are caused by brain chemicals therefore it is proof that it is just an epiphenomenon of the brain. I’d argue that the brain chemicals facilitate a wider experience of reality than you would get if you were embodied, as it were. Anthony Peake.

Really good talk here. I read it but you can also listen to it. This is my idea of being a "free thinker" Not tying oneself to a dogma and trying to prove it after the fact.

Skeptiko – Science at the Tipping Point » Blog Archive » 171. Anthony Peake on Near-Death Experiences Versus Actual Death Experiences

 

[tyder001]

His thoughts on Deja Vue are something I've never heard before. I am not (as I've said before) looking for a guru. But, wisdom is where you find it. Or "Wisdom is known of all her children."

 

[Qetuoadgjl]

So clearly it is sort of brain generated but not and that’s the danger of the trap we’re falling into of assuming that because these things are caused by brain chemicals therefore it is proof that it is just an epiphenomenon of the brain. I’d argue that the brain chemicals facilitate a wider experience of reality than you would get if you were embodied, as it were. Anthony Peake.

Really good talk here. I read it but you can also listen to it. This is my idea of being a "free thinker" Not tying oneself to a dogma and trying to prove it after the fact.

Skeptiko – Science at the Tipping Point » Blog Archive » 171. Anthony Peake on Near-Death Experiences Versus Actual Death Experiences

Peake's regurgitating a ton of Terence McKenna, a man-god-ego I knew personally. Not that upchucking McKenna with a science-bent is all bad, mind you, but it's not earth shatteringly new either.

Anyhoo, anyone who has taken ayahuasca or smoked DMT - cough - will tell you when you go off to visit the other realms the last fooken thing you are thinking about is "is it in my head". But hey, Harry Potter couldn't figure it out so...

 

[Kim323]

Steve, a great interview. Alex Tsakiris on Skeptiko has, as you no doubt know, a host of interviews on near death and death and implications surrounding them, and all sorts of consciousness and the brain topics. His guests are very interesting and have a wide range of views, so I recommend his show, too.

And I've read Rick Strassman's book DMT The Spirit Molecule. It's very riveting, and he describes in detail how he went through the labyrinthine process to be approved by the government to conduct his studies, and how he chose from those who applied to take part. He goes into the upstepping of dosages, the whole process, and it's never a dry read. I read your comments elsewhere about DMT.

Great interview, Steve, and I need to go back into Skeptiko and catch a few interviews I've missed. Kim

 

[tyder001]

I like the fact that you can read the transcripts if you prefer. He does a good job of engaging with people on both sides of the issue. I understand he has his bias. But, unlike some others he's willing to allow contrary opinions to be presented without (as we say in the south) pitching a hissy fit.

 

[boomerang]

I had surgery a week ago. It's hard to experience going into and emerging from general anesthesia without wondering "who and what" I am and where "we" are.

Going under feels so natural. Possibly because one is happily stoned. There seems then a great void of nothingness, not sleep or a sensation of having been anywhere, and the first thing you recall is someone repeatedly calling your name , "Mr. Tootubby, Mr. Tootubby...can you hear me?" Some threshold has been momentarily crossed and you have returned, and realize you have returned, to this world.

So where was the essential "you" while under anesthesia? All one can say is that it did not hurt. (that comes post-op Were you a live person in a coma? A dead person for a couple of hours with a (hopefully) good chance of living again? Does the big OS that is the universe keep you from fully experiencing death because it is not your time anyway?

 

[tyder001]

I had the same experience under anesthesia a few years ago. If that is death then it's nothing to fear that's for sure. But, like you I didn't really think it was exactly like death. I didn't see a bright light and I wasn't absolutely in oblivion either. I did have the feeling of waking up from a very deep sleep. But, on the other hand my essential self was still "on guard" on some level. Anyway, that's certainly how I felt and you describe it very well.

 

[Qetuoadgjl]

I had the same experience under anesthesia a few years ago. If that is death then it's nothing to fear that's for sure. But, like you I didn't really think it was exactly like death. I didn't see a bright light and I wasn't absolutely in oblivion either. I did have the feeling of waking up from a very deep sleep. But, on the other hand my essential self was still "on guard" on some level. Anyway, that's certainly how I felt and you describe it very well.

Propofol?

What did your anesthesiologist say about this experience when you reported it to him?

 

[tyder001]

Propofol?

I didn't report it to him captn.

 

[Qetuoadgjl]

Propofol?

Yes.

I didn't report it to him captn.

Then I suggest you do and do so immediately. It is doubtful you had anything close to a true NDE.

 

[trainedobserver]

So where was the essential "you" while under anesthesia? All one can say is that it did not hurt. (that comes post-op Were you a live person in a coma? A dead person for a couple of hours with a (hopefully) good chance of living again? Does the big OS that is the universe keep you from fully experiencing death because it is not your time anyway?

I would say it is in the same place it was before only deactivated. Brain processes are still going on, but that bit that reflects the outside world that we think of as our awareness is not running so to speak. As long nothing gets changed and the chemistry returns to normal you pop up again in the sea of unconscious processes wondering what happened. If brain damage occurs while you are down then the essential you that reemerges could be a radically different one.

There are horror stories of patients becoming aware while in surgery complete with the ability to feel pain but without any motor functions. So you can see that where the idea that sections of the brain getting turned on or off chemically (an oversimplification I'm sure) corresponds to functions being enabled, disabled, or caused to function abnormally. Consciousness, the essential you, the ego, or whatever you wish to call it, can be thought of as another function.

I think this model works whether you want to insert ethereal components or argue the true nature of physical matter. I think it also works for the brain as a receiver notion as well.

 

[tyder001]

Yes.


Then I suggest you do and do so immediately. It is doubtful you had anything close to a true NDE.

I didn't say I did have a true NDE. I was nowhere near death. I simply don't know how close the experience is to actual death. I doubt it's anywhere near it.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I feel I am justified in speaking from the point of view of an 'experiencer' when it comes to things like DMT. In this forum I have argued for some of these drugs granting access to a 'realm' otherwise hidden to us. I am not saying that I think there is this objectively real place somewhere that your 'spirit' goes to temporarily before returning to the body. I know scientifically this can all be reduced to basically what reality is and what our brain can create from scratch for our spirit to exist. I know that the DMT is having a pharmacalogical effect on the mind and everything you experience, however 'real' is just a creation of the mind.

As I say, I know that is what must be happening. But every fibre of my being tells me it is much more than a creation of the mind - my mind is convinced it just isn't talented enough to create the place I seemed to go. I kinda felt like there is a 3rd party place to which my mind had gone, and my mind painted it the way the subconscious 'suggested' it should be. Very like dreams but the imagery is all unique and not of the same 'code' as dreaming.

I think with NDE's or when you are under anaesthetic, you are just in a hibernation mode for a short time, the body existing on minimal functions but the mind very close to being roused and brought active in a short time.

I have always had a morbid fascination with people being beheaded in executions. Is the mind aware for any amount of time after the severing? Does the brain see anything after?
I have read that the brutal breaking of the spinal column creates such a shock to the brain stem (the primitive part that controls breathing) that the death is quite immediate and no-one would be aware whatsoever.

But I'm not totally convinced! It just seems to me that with a clean cut - everything that is needed for the mind to be working should be intact, with oxygenated blood for a second or two. I think there may well be a second or so of awareness but at the same time, I doubt anyone could move any facial muscles to indicate any awareness so probably only some scientific monitoring of someone condemned to beheading would reveal and best of luck trying to arrange that! Apparently a few French doctors tried to induce some condemned men but either they didn't comply or could not comply- there was never any noticeable response.

Everyone thinks about what death will be from time to time and I personally think a large part of religion is a need to deal with thinking about what happens after we die. I actually think being dead will be like how it was 2 years before your own birth - as in there is no such thing and it's as if you never existed in the first place. That will do me, as long as there is no awareness or passage of time then you aint aware to even realise you are dead! I certainly don't want to live 'forever' and I wonder if people really understand how long is 'forever'. I mean, a billion billion billion billion years is but a?

 

[Qetuoadgjl]

Thank you for your effort.

 

[boomerang]

As I say, I know that is what must be happening. But every fibre of my being tells me it is much more than a creation of the mind - my mind is convinced it just isn't talented enough to create the place I seemed to go.

Yes, I have indeed been to "places" in dreams many times more vivid in color and detail than my waking mind could possibly hope to create. I have no artistic ability in real life and do well to sketch stick figures.

So the obvious question: Has the dreamer (or psychonaut) glimpsed other realities, or has some hidden and powerful capability been triggered in the dreamer's mind? Either possibility is fascinating.

 

[tyder001]

Once you've had a "dream" interact with you, then you can no longer accept it as a "brain fart." That hasn't happened a whole lot of times but I have had the experience. It's hard to describe but the person in the dream actually told me things that "I" didn't know. Anyway, the point is that the brain is important and so is the heart and liver and bloodflow. But, the "I" that is my essential self is not a creation of some "process" that happens between grey matter and whatever. I honestly would buy the "brain creates" if I had not had my own moments where that simply wasn't an option. Also, one of the most skeptical folks I have ever known (He really was a rocket scientist) and no friend of religion. Devoured Scientific American for light reading. But, he had to "file something away" that didn't fit the brain creates explanation. To his credit he didn't get mad and call names or run to pull up his favorite pop scientist. He simply said "I'll have to think about that." One problem that I see is we all rush to defend our worldview without thinking things through. It's as if we are afraid that if we don't "debunk" the other person then we must be in error. But, honestly as much as it infuriates some folks, we don't have all the answers yet. Doesn't mean we shouldn't keep looking. Just means we should have a little humility. Me included.

 

[trainedobserver]

Steve, are you actually saying that you do not think that your mind is a creation of your physical body? If not the physical body then where does the mind come from and how? Isn't it a medical fact that changes in the body create changes in the mind, the personality, and can even change the identity of the essential "you" of that body?

You often tell us what you do not "buy" but I'm often left wondering what you are buying into. What do you "buy"?

Don't dreams, hallucinations, and waking consciousness all share the same rendering mechanism? Our perception of reality in full wakeful consciousness is just as much a construction as any dream or hallucination. The difference is the source of input and the set of rules applied in rendering consciousness. All of these states are equally unreal and they are all unique constructions played out in the theater of an individuals mind. To me this negates the possibility that hallucinations triggered by altered brain chemistry, disease, injury, or electromagnetic fields portray other realities, dimensions, or what have you.

Here is how I understand things to work. Take it or leave it, I offer it here for amusement and entertainment. The universe is one big thing. Human beings and some other animals in the universe create a complex 3D virtual reality simulation of the universe that is within the range of their senses and we call it our conscious minds. This simulation of the universe is extremely limited and is only representational being actually constructed of the stuff of the individual experiencing it. It exists to allow the organism to navigate, feed, reproduce, and thrive in the universe and therefore doesn't need to be complete or actual one for one model, it only has to be consistent and sufficient to meet the needs of the organism. We are all essentially reality engines generating and experiencing highly filtered and physically and contextually separate versions (our individual minds) of the same universe. When we uncalibrate (injury, drugs, altered states) the instruments (or brains and/or senses) we are using to gather and present the data about that universe we are just constructing another version of that one real universe in our minds, not peering into some alternate universe or dimension. These experiences can be inspiring and can even trigger insights but the "other worlds" or "other realities" experienced exist only in an abstract sense in the mind of the individual.

 

[tyder001]

Rick I do appreciate your thoughtfullness and as you often do you give some good food for thought. But, " What do you "buy"?" is something that I also wonder about you. No offense or smart azz attitude meant by that. It's just that you talk about Processess and stuff and interaction and the truth is none of that is fact or proven or anywhere near a final answer. It's just as airy fairy as anything else. My physical brain interacts with chemicals and produces "me." Nope, don't buy it and my life experience is why. Look, it's one thing to say that you can hit your head and change your experience through brain injury. I can bust my t.v. and change the ability to receive college football on it. But, it doesn't obliterate college football. But, even at that we can go back and forth forever on this. Here's my thing and as you have said "Your milage may vary" But, for me. Once I have a dream (and I've had more than one, but a couple really stand out.) and in the dream a person tells me information that I didn't already have access to on my own. Then I tell it to a skeptical friend who I respect "BEFORE HAND" and it happens then that takes it out of the realm of being dependent on my brain. Now, no I can't do it on demand. But, I am not talking about seeing a red car in a dream and then going to a busy intersection and looking for a red car. So, anyway, it's enough for me to know that my spirit and my sense of who I am is still on ongoing journey. I"ve said before that I was raised Christian. My dogma did not survive my life experience. I'm a Christian Agnostic for want of a better term. I actually do believe in reincarnation and that has been challenged both by my Christian friends and my agnostic friends. But, it really doesn't matter to me at this point in my life. I've lived to long now to honestly think I have all the answers. I know much less than I did when I was younger. But, I'm much wiser.

 

[Kim323]

This is a great thread, and I've posted only once, about Rick Strassman's DMT, The Spirit Molecule. And I'm just throwing in my views, and I've wanted to stay out because I see some great posts going back and forth, and it is all so fascinating.

Rick, I agree that reality as experienced by any one individual is that person's "own" reality. Studies in consciousness show that, that's what makes it "consciousness," only we individually experience it, and no one, really, can know what it TRULY and actually feels like to BE another person, even a close family member or friend, or even other humans in the sense that we all can sympathize with each other over things that afflict all of us because we all share certain experiences, death, love, hate, anger, frustration, etc. But ultimately, we are all alone, each of us, and that's scary.

And then, true, certain things like brain injury, psychological stress, certain experiences, etc. can change our perceptions on all levels. So, yes, how do we make sense of it all, what is the true reality? And consciousness itself is a mystery. Try, as I've read many scientists on consciousness say, to focus for a few seconds on, ok, right now, I AM CONSCIOUS. Then, as you said I think on another thread, Rick, that moment of "capture" passes and is replaced by another, and time and space become clear in the nature of consciousness.

I tend to agree, in fact strongly agree, more with Steve (and Rick, I'm not saying you don't believe this, I'm not sure) that THERE IS a TRUE REALITY, composed of, well, what it really is. And yes, then I am answering your question to Steve about what a person "buys", and I enter the realm of dare I say it, religion. And if I have Steve's view wrong, let me know, Steve.

I do believe, philosophically, historically, scientifically, and ETHICALLY, that there is God, and that he "keeps track" and "knows" all. Not that we are slaves to him, quite the contrary, but look at what we can and have accomplished with our brains, and I believe he wants us to search and find answers. But, if there is no "real" reality, if everything is only what we as individuals process, then that itself doesn't make any sense, but there, to me, has to be a very REAL reality from which our brains GET the parts we are able to form our own reality from, and that is sometimes imperfect, but it gets us across the street without getting run over, and it gets us to, I think, making moral decisions, because I believe there is an objective, freestanding reality apart from what we can see in its totality, but it does exist in an entirety, a moral, scientific, physical reality.

And yes, I see that from a Christian perspective, too, but I'll leave it at that.

Rick Strassman has said some very intriguing things he took from his research into DMT, which I've heard him talk about on the radio and in his book. He is Jewish, and though he admits he is departing somewhat from the strict protocols of his research, he sees some very real confluence between the production of DMT in our brains and religious experiences.

What I'm struck by again and again (and again!) is how all the transhumanism, humanism, it's-all-just-biological-and-nothing-else, we can solve all our problems ONLY through science and pure rationality, we don't need God, in fact he's a childish and infantile (and worse) belief, we know better, we, by God, stand alone and are darn well proud of it, and on and on, postulates such stuff to such an extreme that it stretches your credulity to the breaking point and ends up COMING FULL CIRCLE right back to God.

A great thread, and just in brief, expressing what I "buy." And I'm not saying that wasn't a legitimate question. Kim

 

[trainedobserver]

...It's just that you talk about Processess and stuff and interaction and the truth is none of that is fact or proven or anywhere near a final answer. It's just as airy fairy as anything else. ...My physical brain interacts with chemicals and produces "me." Nope, don't buy it and my life experience is why.

It can demonstrated how changes in the physical brain through chemistry or physical trauma directly affects personality and the perception of reality and the self. You can study case after documented case of that. A book I enjoyed on this subject was Head Cases: Stories of Brain Injury and Its Aftermath Michael Paul Mason. There simply is no real argument to the contrary that I am aware of. Are you really discounting the practical knowledge gained through years of the medical profession studying the brain? If you had a brain tumor that changed both your ability to perceive the world correctly and your personality would you seek out the aid of a brain surgeon or someone else? I would seek the removal of the physical cause by a doctor.

You said all that but never actually came out and said what you think the "essential you" is. You mention the word, "spirit." What is that exactly, what is it composed of, and how does it operate? Is that the essential you? If the entirety of the human personality is contained within this other thing then what use is the body or the brain? Why do you want to discount so much knowledge about the physical connection between the condition and activity within the brain and the mind or essential you that exists in modern medical procedures that are conducted 100s if not 1000s of times a day all over the world? These procedures are based on hard facts about how the brain works and what happens when you pull on that bit, drill a hole in that structure, or provide and electrical stimulus to a given region. These all depend upon practical facts about brain structure and what processes occur in them and not guess work, speculation, hope or faith.