High Strangeness in the California Desert

[Tyger]

@Tyger what is it about a high strangeness experience subsequent to a ufo sighting that sets off your red flag? Is it that you think a person may be unconsciously setting themselves up for an experience and maybe imagining it?

It says to me that the person is vested in a certain story-line. It suggests to me fabrication. If one has a significantly strange experience that is enticing and provocative - one might reasonably want it repeated - one might reasonably want more of the same sensational attention the first experience generated. Hence, repeat 'high strangeness' events - but imagined or fabricated.

One of the significant markers is the assumption of specialness: seeing the ufo becomes a special 'arrangement' between aliens and the human targeted. A considerable back-story is being, or has been, generated in this area.

One of the problems with the hotel story is the fact that these MIB showed up when the man was off-duty. So why not show up when he is on-duty? One needs to look at intent and purpose - to what possible purpose would such MIB show up randomly to see the man? If talking to him is so important, why not show up the next day when he is at work? Or at his house? The other side of this story-line never gets concluded - actual meet-up with said MIB and what they want and what they say. Alls we have is the vagueness of it all - the subtle pervasive paranoia, or sense of being 'special' to some unknown party. Human nature at work - nothing unusual at all imo.

 

[nameless]

Movie Set at Ocotillo Wells - California - ThumperTalk

 

[Tyger]

Calm down, no one is claiming that this is anything definitive.

Am I not calm?

Where did you get the idea that anyone did?

From you. The use of the term MIB. The floating of the idea of robot soldiers being 'further along' in development than imagined.

Of course alternative explanations are possible

I'd say a great many alternative explanations are possible. I once had a friend high on LSD who saw us all as aliens.

although we have more information not discussed in that video, and we are pretty sure it's not a hoax by the hotel employees.

More information? Why not divulge it all? Why hold your cards so close to your chest? What does this get you?

This and the California case are just an effort to share information so that we can all look for patterns together.

You can't see 'patterns' of any reality in such flimsy 'evidence'.

No one case "proves" anything (I hate the word "proof"), and you can't make an evidential case for anything unless you have a hypothesis, which in our case we have not got.

I would advise a more thorough investigative technique - as well as reporting venue. So far, what is being 'disclosed' is more sensational than factual. JMO.

 

[Tyger]

Movie Set at Ocotillo Wells - California - ThumperTalk

Interesting - and why didn't I think of that - filming in the desert! An indie film or 'short' buried under the piles of indie films and 'shorts' done by film students out of Los Angeles.

The Cailfornia witness says the incident took place in 2001. This poster (from the link you supplied) writes in 2008 about a filming 6 years before (2002) -

"Posted 15 March 2008 - 07:13 AM: About 6 years or so, I did a group ride from Cal City to Trona Pinicles. They were filming Planet of the Apes. Security would not let us near that place. It was quite the product it looked like a city had popped up over night. Lot of $$$ spent for a flop movie. - Wayne"

Anyway, the possible explanations are numerous. And this is not even mentioning the fact that a real interview has not been conducted (or shared) of the people involved - just sensational ott story telling.

 

[Tyger]

@PCarr I am about done (though hope springs eternal that a gem shall be found) with the ufo/paranormal/strangeness community. The willingness - nay, eagerness - to run with the slightest hiccup - is what makes the subject without credibility and merely an endless exercise in human nature.

Forget MUFON and trying to create an organization that a government arm would be better to address - like a police force, or some such. Hire a team of private investigators - set 'em lose. They'll get you answers. Plus some hard-hitting questions in real interviews - sans spooky, suggestive music. JMO.

 

[Wade]

n

Interesting - and why didn't I think of that - filming in the desert! An indie film or 'short' buried under the piles of indie films and 'shorts' done by film students out of Los Angeles.

The Cailfornia witness says the incident took place in 2001. This poster (from the link you supplied) writes in 2008 about a filming 6 years before (2002) -

"Posted 15 March 2008 - 07:13 AM: About 6 years or so, I did a group ride from Cal City to Trona Pinicles. They were filming Planet of the Apes. Security would not let us near that place. It was quite the product it looked like a city had popped up over night. Lot of $$$ spent for a flop movie. - Wayne"

Anyway, the possible explanations are numerous. And this is not even mentioning the fact that a real interview has not been conducted (or shared) of the people involved - just sensational ott story telling.

Well the initial experience P Carr mentions could have been a movie shoot as Ocotillio wells/ Borrego Springs could be considered in the same area but it was posted in 2008 and mentioned the incident as occuring 2 years earlier. But in regards to the following post ( Cal City and the Trona Pinnacles) both locations are located well north ( Kern county and San Berdoo county ) of the coords posted in the original story. It would have been a hell of an out of the way loop ride to go from Cal City to Trona Pinn and still go via Borrego Springs...assuming i'm reading the posts right

Cal City Trona are in the Mojave, Ocotillio/Borrego are in the Colorado Desert

 

[Tyger]

Well the initial experience P Carr mentions could have been a movie shoot as Ocotillio wells/Borrego Springs could be considered in the same area but it was posted in 2008 and mentioned the incident as occuring 2 years earlier. But in regards to the following post ( Cal City and the Trona Pinnacles) both locations are located well north ( Kern county and San Berdoo county ) of the coords posted in the original story. It would have been a hell of an out of the way loop ride to go from Cal City to Trona Pinn and still go via Borrego Springs...assuming i'm reading the posts right

The point is not that the 2001 California witness story PCarr brings forth was related to the particular filming schedules happening in either 2006 or 2002 - but that the possibility of a desert filming happening in the area identified in 2001 is there, in the realm of possibility.

Social history being the blur it is for most of us - can you recall any films or television shows (which would include ufo documentary type shows that 'stage' people's stories or best-guess ideas) that might have been filming in 2001 and aired in 2002/03? No. Unlikely. That's the benefit of positing these events so far in the past.

If the men seen were extras for a film - in makeup/costume - one possibility - they would understandably be buying water (and plenty of it) for the time spent at a desert shoot. (If they were in latex masks - they'd be boiling at a desert shoot!)

 

[Burnt State]

I think that there's a faulty premise issue with this story that needs to be explored first. The setup of the tale is that these two guys are the twilight zone/outer limits experiencers whereas everyone else is in on the story i.e. the plastic cloned soldiers and the person behind the cash register selling the gallons of water. Only these two guys are having the liminal zone effects and see what's taking place as very strange - that's always point one for me on what's a made up story vs. a real story involving strange humanoids. Is everyone having the experience or only the witnesses telling the tale? Without a confirmation from the person selling the water that this actually happened then it's a scratch no, especially when we are talking about the high importance of this concept of "chain of evidence." I think I remember PCarr highlighting the importance of how UFO photos make it from the shooter to the UFO investigator on another thread a ways back. Should not those more stringent detective skills be also utilized when we tell & investigate "high strangeness" stories as well? Or is it enough for the story to start repeating and echoing through the paranormal podcast land like that MIB video posted up above?

The purchasing of a gallon of water from a military perspective or otherwise sounds a little ridiculous. Water consumption in the desert requires substantially more than a gallon per person especially if they're going to be doing work. If they're cloned robots of some sort i suppose that they might not need any water at all to begin with. If this is some sort of operation, be it a military one or a film set event, would there not just be one person/quartermaster that would be purchasing something as basic as the water requirements for the platoon/crew? Consequently, it's the premise itself of the story that makes no sense to me whatsoever.

All the other elements that are brought to this story i.e. no pores, all looking the same, disappearing into the mountain's holographic projection etc. all seem to be the "colour" of the story that's been concocted by the two supposed witnesses, until other confirmations come.

 

[PCarr]

I think that there's a faulty premise issue with this story that needs to be explored first. The setup of the tale is that these two guys are the twilight zone/outer limits experiencers whereas everyone else is in on the story i.e. the plastic cloned soldiers and the person behind the cash register selling the gallons of water. Only these two guys are having the liminal zone effects and see what's taking place as very strange - that's always point one for me on what's a made up story vs. a real story involving strange humanoids. Is everyone having the experience or only the witnesses telling the tale? Without a confirmation from the person selling the water that this actually happened then it's a scratch no, especially when we are talking about the high importance of this concept of "chain of evidence."

All the other elements that are brought to this story i.e. no pores, all looking the same, disappearing into the mountain's holographic projection etc. all seem to be the "colour" of the story that's been concocted by the two supposed witnesses, until other confirmations come.

I have tried to make this as clear as I can, but I'll say it again: the ONLY claim being put forth here is that these guys told this story. That is ALL. Talk about evidence is nonsense except in the context of a claim or hypothesis. My only purpose in sharing this information was the hope that some other FIs have come across similar testimony so we could compare notes. To my limited knowledge, this case is basically unique.

Of course it is just a story, and may be a shared delusion (possible if one person is highly influential over another) or a false memory, or a lie. I wouldn't even reject out of hand that it was some kind of stunt or performance art, like crop circles. However, you have to be prepared to admit that none of the above are the case, and we may have an interesting lead here, especially if similar cases have been investigated.

It is also true that elements of the story don't make much sense, but this is commonly the case with high strangeness events - they are dreamlike in quality, with nonsensical elements that some investigators filter out because they don't fit into a neat theory. IS there a signal in that noise? I don't know.

I don't have a theory for this case. I don't know much more than what I've shared publicly. I don't even know (yet) which mini-mart they stopped at. I think it would be nice to have independent corroboration (say from the clerk at the store), but frankly given the time frame, there isn't much hope of that. We may send an FI out there to look around, but he's unlikely to turn anything up.

 

[Burnt State]

Why look for corroborating stories to compare notes if all you might have is now two sets of stories that confirm each other but not necessarily reality? That's how urban myths like stories of BEK and slender man get started.

Instead of creating theories on what could be mythical I think getting the two guys to ID the store or use those coordinates to do that is worthwhile. Put in a couple of phone calls, if the organization can take that time and $ to do that, and talk to anyone there that has ever served 1 gallon water jugs ever to a group of guys that all look the same, are in non-patched military outfits and travel in the convoy as described.

Either everyone in the store knows about such common/weird events or it was a one off odd event that would have been shared news in such a workplace, especially given the weird purchase.

I think danger lies in, not collecting similar stories across time in reasonable archives, but in asking for weird stories about anything, as you will always get more stories. Like the UFO photo, without a good secure chain of evidence it's discounted as unverifiable, no? What can be reasonsbly done with such items or narratives aside from building more narratives? Eventually they will become part of an ongoing discourse.

 

[Tyger]

The purchasing of a gallon of water from a military perspective or otherwise sounds a little ridiculous. Water consumption in the desert requires substantially more than a gallon per person especially if they're going to be doing work. If they're cloned robots of some sort i suppose that they might not need any water at all to begin with. If this is some sort of operation, be it a military one or a film set event, would there not just be one person/quartermaster that would be purchasing something as basic as the water requirements for the platoon/crew? Consequently, it's the premise itself of the story that makes no sense to me whatsoever.

If it was a student production - not necessarily. For sure for a big well-financed production - but it does sound like a pit-stop, and one never knows, that may have been the way crew was handling water rations for an afternoon shoot. I dunno. The possibilities on this one are endless - they really are.

 

[trainedobserver]

I'm still leaning heavily toward the time traveling ghost techo-priests disguised as army clone stand-ins as a means to subvert reality and the constitution of these here United States.

 

[Burnt State]

ok, i'd say split it four ways: the film crew having to fork out coin for their own water, the time traveling ghost techno-priests (a personal favourite, especially if they are the invading foreign power), MIB's with their holographic tech working on integrating their clones into the local culture, or the two guys made the whole thing up.

*cue closing twilight zone music with descending flute trill*

you decide...

it'll look a lot better if you shoot the story with Rod Serling having a smoke in black and white with a 50's living room background set while giving his final musing thoughts on the whole thing - trust me.

 

[bbridges]

It says to me that the person is vested in a certain story-line. It suggests to me fabrication. If one has a significantly strange experience that is enticing and provocative - one might reasonably want it repeated - one might reasonably want more of the same sensational attention the first experience generated. Hence, repeat 'high strangeness' events - but imagined or fabricated.

One of the significant markers is the assumption of specialness: seeing the ufo becomes a special 'arrangement' between aliens and the human targeted. A considerable back-story is being, or has been, generated in this area.

One of the problems with the hotel story is the fact that these MIB showed up when the man was off-duty. So why not show up when he is on-duty? One needs to look at intent and purpose - to what possible purpose would such MIB show up randomly to see the man? If talking to him is so important, why not show up the next day when he is at work? Or at his house? The other side of this story-line never gets concluded - actual meet-up with said MIB and what they want and what they say. Alls we have is the vagueness of it all - the subtle pervasive paranoia, or sense of being 'special' to some unknown party. Human nature at work - nothing unusual at all imo.

Sheesh, Tyger, When you say one must look at intents and purpose you remind me of the satirical scene in The Princess Bride where Wallace Shawn tries to figure out if he's holding the poisoned wine glass. Tooo many machinations with too many assumptions and then the dismissive reference to human nature at work. You could be right on the mark, but how can you assume that 'their' intentions fit your 'reasonable assumptions?' All we ever have is the vagueness of it all across the entire spectrum of manifestations of unusual observances. Best to put on the brakes right there than venture to try and argue that your questions are reasonably indicative of some pathetic trait you assign to 'human nature'. Seems to me you're hanging yourself on your own petard, so to speak. All we have is something out of the'ordinary a bit on low quality video, some anecdotal story, and an obvious and very familiar sense of frustration, that we all share. Nothing unusual at all...

 

[bbridges]

I'm still leaning heavily toward the time traveling ghost techo-priests disguised as army clone stand-ins as a means to subvert reality and the constitution of these here United States.

Bingo!

 

[Tyger]

I have tried to make this as clear as I can, but I'll say it again: the ONLY claim being put forth here is that these guys told this story. That is ALL.

Okay. Not a problem by itself - but I usually tell my stories for a reason.

Talk about evidence is nonsense except in the context of a claim or hypothesis.

Here I disagree. In sharing this you are asking that people accept what is being related without question - or that is what it appears. Evidence that these events actually occurred is not nonsense. As it stands, the reality of the events is in question because not verified - at least for some, like me, who hear the story.

I'm surprised that you seem unprepared for this kind of questioning and don't appear to be taking the questioning in stride.

My only purpose in sharing this information was the hope that some other FIs have come across similar testimony so we could compare notes. To my limited knowledge, this case is basically unique.

With this you are indicating that you think this event is accurate - or is in the realm of being 'real' - as 'highly strange', I guess - and that there would be other such events 'highly strange' to 'compare notes' with. You have significant assumptions that influence how you filter this story. Someone else - like me - sees very little reason to ascribe any reality to this story as shared, as 'highly strange'. I'd need a lot more to go down that mountain path.

Of course it is just a story, and may be a shared delusion (possible if one person is highly influential over another) or a false memory, or a lie. I wouldn't even reject out of hand that it was some kind of stunt or performance art, like crop circles.

Okay.

However, you have to be prepared to admit that none of the above are the case, and we may have an interesting lead here, especially if similar cases have been investigated.

To do that, one has to have a lot more evidence that the event even took place. As stands, it's just a tall tale, of a kind. But more - interesting lead for what? to what?

This would be a wholly different story if the two men tried to talk to the strangers, or the clerk, or other customers - or went back, after seeing the convoy 'disappear into the hill', to talk to the clerks at the rest stop. It would be one of my first reactions - to lasso someone nearby and ask: do you see that? did you see that? But more, why not just talk to the strange men? Is this something akin to a man refusing to ask for directions?

It is also true that elements of the story don't make much sense, but this is commonly the case with high strangeness events - they are dreamlike in quality, with nonsensical elements that some investigators filter out because they don't fit into a neat theory. IS there a signal in that noise? I don't know.

So here you've lost me - but with this it is clear that you have a backstory for this event that makes you prone to 'see' something here that someone like me - without that backstory - won't see. You are dealing with a hypothesis.

I don't have a theory for this case.

But I suspect you do - because it nabbed your attention. As you know - we see what we are looking for. It's a truism.

I don't know much more than what I've shared publicly.

That's not what you originally indicated.

I don't even know (yet) which mini-mart they stopped at. I think it would be nice to have independent corroboration (say from the clerk at the store), but frankly given the time frame, there isn't much hope of that. We may send an FI out there to look around, but he's unlikely to turn anything up.

You are demonstrating why so many ufo 'reports' cannot be trusted. It all becomes hear-say, piled on hear-say. Very few 'facts' - or facts at all. Just 'dreamy' moments.

 

[Tyger]

Sheesh, Tyger, When you say one must look at intents and purpose you remind me of the satirical scene in The Princess Bride where Wallace Shawn tries to figure out if he's holding the poisoned wine glass.

We are analyzing events with people. Taking note of intents and purposes in an investigation is primary. What's the 'sheesh' about?

Tooo many machinations with too many assumptions and then the dismissive reference to human nature at work.

What are the 'machinations'?

'Dismissive reference' regarding 'human nature at work'? I think you misunderstand. My reference to 'human nature' is meant to indicate that the explanation for events are not 'paranormal' or 'high strangeness' - but can be found in the complexities of human nature - be it faulty memory, overactive imaginations, love of the limelight, pursuit of fame and fortune via fraudulent means, innocent mistaken perceptions - and so it goes.

From my reading in the world of the paranormal/ufo world - much can be explained by human nature. Particularly the pied piper syndrome - following perceived 'authorities'. More is taking place that can be understood via the proclivities of human nature than can be explained by alien visitations or governmental shenanigans. I'll give you an example.

I had a conversation with someone about a ufo incident they experienced. Following the telling of the incident the individual said: "Then there was a car in the opposing lane, by the side of the road, an unmarked car, that flashed a light, telling us to leave." As my poster friend, Steve, says: Unpack that - so I began to ask my acquaintance questions about exactly what he meant.

Had I left the statement stand, he was indicating an 'unmarked car' (unmarked police car) turned on a high beam light and flashed it at them, thereby communicating to them that they wanted them to leave the scene at once. For me, there were immediate questions: where was the 'unmarked car' exactly? After several clarifying questions, I found out the 'unmarked car' was a mile down the road. It was 4:30 in the morning - and dark - how did he know it was a police car and 'unmarked'? He said because he could see that there were no lights on the top of the car, nor any markings along the side of the car. How could he determine that from one mile away in the dark? No answer to that. Then I asked about the flashing light he said was coming from the car 'telling them' them leave - how did he know that whoever was flashing the light intended him and his friends to leave? He just knew. Did he talk to the people in the car? No. In fact - that wasn't a fact: it was how he decided to interpret the flashing light from the car. He had not talked to the occupants of the car - and he had no real reason to think that the car was an 'unmarked car', as in 'unmarked police car'. Yet for him the 'unmarked car' was part of a narrative pertaining to a "governmental connection" to the ufo he had just seen, etc.

You could be right on the mark, but how can you assume that 'their' intentions fit your 'reasonable assumptions?'

I'm not getting this. What I have pointed out is that the MIB seem to have a desire to connect with the man - why didn't they come back to make that connection? Why do these curious men show up but never follow through with their purposes? Maybe because they never actually show up in the first place?

All we ever have is the vagueness of it all across the entire spectrum of manifestations of unusual observances.

What?

Best to put on the brakes right there than venture to try and argue that your questions are reasonably indicative of some pathetic trait you assign to 'human nature'.

Human nature is all around us, nothing pathetic about it - human nature is all we have and know - it is operating right here on this thread: discomfort in the ufo/paranormal arena having assumptions and stories questioned and put the test of reason and likelihood. That a 'high strange' tall tale would not be greeted with avid interest and unblinking belief startles and unsettles, perhaps. That's what I am getting.

Seems to me you're hanging yourself on your own petard, so to speak.

What? Do you know what this (overused) phrase (on this chat site) actually means? And if so, could you explain how you think I am doing this?

All we have is something out of the ordinary a bit on low quality video, some anecdotal story, and an obvious and very familiar sense of frustration, that we all share. Nothing unusual at all.

I agree we have nothing unusual at all - and that it is the vagaries of human nature making it more than it is for any number of reasons.

What we may disagree on: I see nothing unusual about the video and have no reason to believe either story. As far as I am concerned, they are both tall tales - unless there is more to them, more 'evidence' of their actual occurrence.

 

[Tyger]

Why look for corroborating stories to compare notes if all you might have is now two sets of stories that confirm each other but not necessarily reality? That's how urban myths like stories of BEK and slender man get started.

Instead of creating theories on what could be mythical I think getting the two guys to ID the store or use those coordinates to do that is worthwhile. Put in a couple of phone calls, if the organization can take that time and $ to do that, and talk to anyone there that has ever served 1 gallon water jugs ever to a group of guys that all look the same, are in non-patched military outfits and travel in the convoy as described.

Either everyone in the store knows about such common/weird events or it was a one off odd event that would have been shared news in such a workplace, especially given the weird purchase.

Excellent summation!

I think danger lies in, not collecting similar stories across time in reasonable archives, but in asking for weird stories about anything, as you will always get more stories.

Like the UFO photo, without a good secure chain of evidence it's discounted as unverifiable, no? What can be reasonsbly done with such items or narratives aside from building more narratives? Eventually they will become part of an ongoing discourse.

Exactly so! In fact, my curiosity is piqued. I do make trips on a regular basis to New Mexico - and I could easily adjust my travel route to include this portion of road. I just might do it - and ask some questions.

 

[nameless]

@PCarr I am about done (though hope springs eternal that a gem shall be found) with the ufo/paranormal/strangeness community. The willingness - nay, eagerness - to run with the slightest hiccup - is what makes the subject without credibility and merely an endless exercise in human nature.

Forget MUFON and trying to create an organization that a government arm would be better to address - like a police force, or some such. Hire a team of private investigators - set 'em lose. They'll get you answers. Plus some hard-hitting questions in real interviews - sans spooky, suggestive music. JMO.

Feel the same . I can understand why you don't get a lot or any professionals in the field contributing to threads, well constructively at least . Time for another hiatus I think.

 

[PCarr]

Why look for corroborating stories to compare notes if all you might have is now two sets of stories that confirm each other but not necessarily reality? That's how urban myths like stories of BEK and slender man get started.

I'm only interested in first hand accounts that have been investigated to some extent, with at least some verifiable information. The purpose of sharing the information is to see if someone has a better corroborated story. Over time, you just develop a nose for leads that ought to be followed because they promise something verifiable.

For example, a lot of folks in the Fort Duchesne, UT area report seeing weird lights at night. We went out there and with the help of a local found a good observation point and saw and videotaped an unexplained light that doesn't fit with any of the more common IFOs. Now, with the oil and gas industry all around there I'm not ready to call that a big mystery, but they do occur.

Instead of creating theories on what could be mythical

What theories? I haven't created any, not do I think anyone should at this point. A theory is way more than a conjecture or speculation. A good theory takes into account a rich data set and makes testable predictions, and any ambiguity or imprecision in those predictions is also part of the theory. I've got nothing like that, and neither does anyone else. I bet I could come up at least 8-10 speculations about what this was other than a hoax or delusion, but none would count as theories.

When I speculate, I always clearly label it as such, although some folks just can't get the difference.

I think getting the two guys to ID the store or use those coordinates to do that is worthwhile. Put in a couple of phone calls, if the organization can take that time and $ to do that, and talk to anyone there that has ever served 1 gallon water jugs ever to a group of guys that all look the same, are in non-patched military outfits and travel in the convoy as described.

Yeah, we thought of that. Ongoing. We may get an FI on site sometime soon, but I am not hopeful given the time lag. Probably the most promising approach is a visit to the local saloon and a chat with veteran locals.

Either everyone in the store knows about such common/weird events or it was a one off odd event that would have been shared news in such a workplace, especially given the weird purchase.

Those mini-marts tend to have frequent turnover, but it's worth a try. I've been in small towns out west (yes, we do spend money and travel out there), and asked people what they know about weird events, and it's hard to find first-hand accounts, and sometimes you get a wall of silence.