Human Hybrids

[mike]

If there is one thing that stick out most in my mind after reading Mr Streibers books its the bit where its explained to him that its a "universal" law that the ability to do a thing is all the right you need to do it, painting an analogy of his abduction and that of a primate being used for medical research.

with that in mind the following articles raise an interesting question

http://news.scotsman.com/ViewArticle.aspx?articleid=2688011

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A19781-2005Feb12.html

would you buy a chimera if it could be trained to wash the car do the dishes make the bed etc, in what way would this "product" differ from a guide dog or disabled assistance monkey currently "employed" by man

 

[Poi]

Never. I can't think of anything creepier.

 

[CapnG]

You... MANIACS! You blew it up! God... damn... you...! GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

 

[mike]

You... MANIACS! You blew it up! God... damn... you...! GOD DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

it does have that feel about it, doesnt it. however i suspect unlike the planet of the apes plot these "products" will have a terminator gene making them unable to breed naturally.

what about stalins idea, do you think it would be more politically and socially acceptable to send send gorrilla/human hybrids to war than pure human stock ?
the "troops" would be cheap to deploy and feed, you would not need M.A.S.H units or medics, you could simply destroy damaged stock as you go, they would require minimal comforts such as showers and toilets, would be many times stronger than any human trooper an enemy might feild, and no moments of silence at the end of news hour.

keep in mind the only thing that stopped this scenario from actually happening was a lack of technoligy, not the will or desire to do so.

if say the russians did develop such a soldier capable of ripping the hatch off a tank with its bare hands, and with an animal cunning and brutality that gives it the difinative edge in a battle plan, would not we have to do the same.

considering the army already uses dogs and dolphins for bomb disposal tasks (expendable in worse case scenario ie bomb goes off)
would you not prefer to send in GELF soldiers rather than your sons and daughters off to die ?

no one crys when a manufactored product like a tank gets destroyed in combat, which political party would get your vote, the one that sends your children off to die, or the one that deploys "products" only such as tanks and GELF's (genetically engineered life forms), the human "handlers" being kept well out of combat

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

A Marilla (part man, part gorilla) is no match for a machine gun.

Unless your Marilla has a titanium exoskeleton with a biomechanical interface for controlling movement, much like the cripples who can move a computer mouse with their brains.

I envision the Marilla perched high in a tree, its Kano-eye glowing red in the dark, ready to jump atop a tank, tear off the canon, throw it like a missile at a helicopter, and then steer the tank into a tarpit.

 

[Mothra]

A Marilla (part man, part gorilla) is no match for a machine gun.

Unless your Marilla has a titanium exoskeleton with a biomechanical interface for controlling movement, much like the cripples who can move a computer mouse with their brains.

I envision the Marilla perched high in a tree, its Kano-eye glowing red in the dark, ready to jump atop a tank, tear off the canon, throw it like a missile at a helicopter, and then steer the tank into a tarpit.

Ya man and you could watch the enemy run in horror as the Marilla chased them around trying to wipe boogers on them while shooting bees from its mouth. That would be awesome.

 

[Loose Leaf Tea]

If it rampaged through an ice-cream parlour would it become a Vanilla Marilla?



Just sayin'...

 

[Seth]

what about stalins idea, do you think it would be more politically and socially acceptable to send send gorrilla/human hybrids to war than pure human stock ?

A Marilla (part man, part gorilla) is no match for a machine gun.

Actually gentlemen, the most accepted name in biology is “Humanzee” when discussing this matter.

Also, what good are ground troops anymore in the presence of robotics and cameras? It seems like a waste of time to train an organism who most likely has the mentality of a 5-year-old. Besides, 5-year-old mentalities can tell a lot to an enemy.

All that aside, I bet this hybrid has been achieved years ago. Chimps are at least 97% similar to humans (DNA). This discrepancy is no different than horses-donkeys (mule), whales-dolphins (wolphin), or tigers-lions (ligers). The problem is: Who wants to step forward with saying they achieved such a hybrid? This individual (company) would have to take on the world and its religions.

 

[mike]

why assume an intelligence of a 5 year old, as a "designed" product you could easily create a "product" thats smarter than the average human.
the no match for a machine gun argument, is correct but then so were the faces you see in silence at the end of jim lehrers news hour.
and yes there was a scientist in vienna in the early 80's who claimed to have birthed "full term" hybrids of human and chimp and wanted a patent on his product.

the russian story claims to have ended in failure, but its only been 8 or 9 generations since , perhaps they are still trying to breed the terminator gene in before putting the product into "the wild" as soldiers.

remote controled devices will play an ever increasing role in military strategy, but an army will always need "manpower"? for want of a better word.

the first american in space.............was a chimpanzee and the rational is identical why put a man in jeopardy where an animal will work just as well for the purpose at hand, if we can create a hybrid that makes a better soldier than a human, and stalin thought so, then why wouldnt we.
whats the difference between puting a chimp in orbit and deploying a hybrid soldier unit

the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior

 

[CapnG]

however i suspect unlike the planet of the apes plot these "products" will have a terminator gene making them unable to breed naturally.

S'matter, you never saw Jurrasic Park? "Nature finds a way..." and all that.

why assume an intelligence of a 5 year old, as a "designed" product you could easily create a "product" thats smarter than the average human.

Yes, super strong, animalistic psychopaths that are smarter than we are... what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Seth]

OK. Then design a product, easily, smarter than an average human. Uh, can't be done, unless you're talking about electronics, which was what I was referring to before. Truly, hybridizing a human and a chimpanzee would not equal human intelligence (so many factors are involved in the development of brain tissue that it would be extremely hard to control this parameter [as a human] even if you solely were concerned with this matter) You are better off training chimpanzees, orangutans, gorillas, or guerrillas themselves .

I can tell you why we put a dog in space before a human was allowed to go: The lack of technology, which would allow a human to go. Additionally, it appears the things you are talking about using a humanzee for can easily be done by technological means, which are easier to develop and control.

I don't disagree that a humanzee is possible, I disagree in the use for them as a war machine not necessarily because of ethics, but because it seems like a stupid idea (no offense, just my opinion). We have younger (and a few older) Americans signing up to do fate-filled tasks now under the confusion of patriotism. Seriously, in a tactical situation a humanzee is worthless; it can be outthought and outfought regardless of physical strength.

Tip: Your post would be a lot easier to read and understand if you used correct grammar and punctuation. You owe that to those who consider this subject seriously.

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

The Marilla is half man, half gorilla, and half machine. His frontal brain lobe has been replaced with a quantum computer, making him not only much smarter than the average human -- but much smarter than the average super-genius. He has the intellect of Data, the fighting spirit of an angry alpha male silverback, and ten times the strength of the Incredible Hulk. His titanium exoskeleton isn't controlled by his muscles but rather by his quantum processor and various other bits of machinery. He is the ultimate weapon.

He can upload satellite feeds into his brain and see an entire battlefield while hiding in a tree. If you put five Marillas together, they can merge and become a super-mega Marilla and defeat even the most powerful enemy.

 

[Seth]

The Marilla is half man, half gorilla, and half machine. His frontal brain lobe has been replaced with a quantum computer, making him not only much smarter than the average human -- but much smarter than the average super-genius. He has the intellect of Data, the fighting spirit of an angry alpha male silverback, and ten times the strength of the Incredible Hulk. His titanium exoskeleton isn't controlled by his muscles but rather by his quantum processor and various other bits of machinery. He is the ultimate weapon.

He can upload satellite feeds into his brain and see an entire battlefield while hiding in a tree. If you put five Marillas together, they can merge and become a super-mega Marilla and defeat even the most powerful enemy.

Oh, well in that case I stand corrected with the humanzee comment...:redface:...One thousand apologizes...:redface:...I was talking about reality!

 

[Chuckleberryfinn]

You may call him unreal now, but when Marilla tears your door off of its hinges and then punches your head through a basketball hoop, you will regret doubting him.

Think about it. I haven't.

 

[mike]

its easy to think along planet of the apes lines when dealing with this, but the "product" only needs to be out by a few percent and its NOT human.
to all intents and purposes it may appear human, and if using genes from an above average source you will get a product thats above average in the smarts dept.

in the armys case they simply need change the skin colour to green, and the "animal" will not be human .
the individual traits dont matter, its the fact that it can be qualified as not human, and there fore an animal like a chimp and it becomes property.

this is the problem the US patent office had, the product was so close to being human that it became ethically difficult for them to rule on the matter.

of course just because the US has balked at the idea of developing these new animals doesnt mean thats the end of the matter.
the russians have tried (are still trying ?) and now the british have given the process the green light

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/17/hfea_hybrid_embryo_projects/

its really happening.

tell me, if i could offer you the opertunity to have your next child modified so it can never get cancer would you use the technoligy ?
if even half the people using artificial means to get pregnant now opted for an enhanced embryo the cat will be out of the bag.

Bruce T holmes in his book anvil of the heart, makes a case.
in the future genetics allows for the implant of embryo's that produce offspring of superior intellect and other traits deemed improvements.
eventually these "new people" gain political power because they are smarter than the norms.... eventaully they pass legislation making it mandatory to give birth to the new strain, arguing that the old strain was disadvantaged by its inferior genes, and is there for child abuse to give birth to one.

if on donating egg and sperm we could implant an embryo that could not get cancer would you use the technoligy, and why stop there, longevity 3 times the human norm ?, einstein level smarts ?, just tick a box and pay your fee..................................



After a consultation, the Human Fertility and Embryology Authority said that research can go ahead because the proposals satisfy all legal requirements and public are "at ease" with the idea.


public are "at ease" with the idea

 

[Seth]

I got a few concerns about your statements mike:

in the armys case they simply need change the skin colour to green, and the "animal" will not be human .

Nope. Believe it or not the definition of a species is a follows “[populations able] to breed among themselves, but are not able to breed with members of another species (dictionary.com).” Not much to do with color in that definition.

the individual traits dont matter, its the fact that it can be qualified as not human, and there fore an animal like a chimp and it becomes property.

this is the problem the US patent office had, the product was so close to being human that it became ethically difficult for them to rule on the matter.

I am speculating here but if we could interbreed with chimps wouldn’t people push for more rights for chimps.

It would be difficult to say the least to convince people of using a humanzee considering slavery has been abolished and these new creatures are half us and lacking intelligence to use money wisely. Seriously, the intellect of these creatures would be that of a child…a child with body-builder strength. So, you pay them to fight-work-dig-climb-whatever right? What would a child do with sums of money? Not such a reliable lot now are they?

tell me, if i could offer you the opertunity to have your next child modified so it can never get cancer would you use the technoligy ?

Errrrr, yeah...uh no! Cancer is not primarily genetic. Additionally, that is a cure for cancer not creating primate-human war machines, please tell me you see a difference.

if even half the people using artificial means to get pregnant now opted for an enhanced embryo the cat will be out of the bag.

Don’t follow you, chief…You are now talking about GE humans alone? That is already happening and we must be very careful that it does not get out of hand. You are right, we do not want another maniacal creature with a “hitleresque” mustache trying to create a super race.

Bruce T holmes in his book anvil of the heart, makes a case.
in the future genetics allows for the implant of embryo's that produce offspring of superior intellect and other traits deemed improvements.
eventually these "new people" gain political power because they are smarter than the norms.... eventaully they pass legislation making it mandatory to give birth to the new strain, arguing that the old strain was disadvantaged by its inferior genes, and is there for child abuse to give birth to one.

if on donating egg and sperm we could implant an embryo that could not get cancer would you use the technoligy, and why stop there, longevity 3 times the human norm ?, einstein level smarts ?, just tick a box and pay your fee..................................

Don’t want to live in those times! But isn’t this similar to what you are proposing?

public are "at ease" with the idea [not really mike's words]

Not the public I roll with!

 

[mike]

the dictionary describes the rule, not the exceptions.
there are examples in the wild, Ligers (cross lion/tiger)
the mule the sterile offspring of the donkey and horse.
human sperm will form gametes with sheep ova, and cell division starts but eventually fails

as the soviets found out cross breeding is not the best way to acheive the objective, however looking at the link to the patent issue and the new british research, it can be done artificially.
if in creating this chimera i leave the human brain genes alone and simply add the chimp genes for enhanced muscles etc (a chimp can bite a mans hand off at the wrist in one go),
then we are indeed left with a valuable product exp in military applications, but these products could also prove useful in agricultural applications.
we dont pay the dogs or dolphins being used by the millitary in anything more than food.
platoon sergeants simply become platoon handlers, much as we currently do in the US army's K9 corp.

a chimp shares what 95 percent of our genes, but its not human its an animal, subject to our will pure and simple, in africa the locals call chimps "bush meat" and eat them.if i create a creature that is 94 percent human, why should it have any more rights than chimps now do.
i cant see a predominatly meat eating "public" being concerned with these animals being created, if monsanto have their way you will be eating GM pork inside ten years, if we can GM an animal for food, i dont see slavery as an issue in that context

that aspect aside if we use this tech to remodel our species creating homo superior, then by darwins law it will eventually replace (being the fittest of the 2 options) the old inferior gene stock.

of course its disturbing, if the trend continues and reaches is obvious conclusion, we will end up as GM products ourselfs.

 

[Seth]

the dictionary describes the rule, not the exceptions.
there are examples in the wild, Ligers (cross lion/tiger)
the mule the sterile offspring of the donkey and horse.

Ok, I made the same observations earlier in this thread. What of it?

human sperm will form gametes with sheep ova, and cell division starts but eventually fails

I’d like you to reference this source, please.

as the soviets found out cross breeding is not the best way to acheive the objective, however looking at the link to the patent issue and the new british research, it can be done artificially.
if in creating this chimera i leave the human brain genes alone and simply add the chimp genes for enhanced muscles etc (a chimp can bite a mans hand off at the wrist in one go),
then we are indeed left with a valuable product exp in military applications, but these products could also prove useful in agricultural applications.
we dont pay the dogs or dolphins being used by the millitary in anything more than food.
platoon sergeants simply become platoon handlers, much as we currently do in the US army's K9 corp.

mike, so you have a very intelligent Humanzee who will only work for food and not give your identity or secrets to the enemy? This is a paradox and as I said before “seems like a stupid idea”. How can this situation work?

a chimp shares what 95 percent of our genes, but its not human its an animal, subject to our will pure and simple, in africa the locals call chimps "bush meat" and eat them.if i create a creature that is 94 percent human, why should it have any more rights than chimps now do.
i cant see a predominatly meat eating "public" being concerned with these animals being created, if monsanto have their way you will be eating GM pork inside ten years, if we can GM an animal for food, i dont see slavery as an issue in that context

that aspect aside if we use this tech to remodel our species creating homo superior, then by darwins law it will eventually replace (being the fittest of the 2 options) the old inferior gene stock.

of course its disturbing, if the trend continues and reaches is obvious conclusion, we will end up as GM products ourselfs.

WOW. Chimps are at least 97% similar to human DNA. Slavery and GE is a HUGE issue especially when dealing with primates because most nations of the world do not see them as food.

Trends are just that, trends. Trends do not continue, hence the name (based on the definition you subscribe to). This issue, in my opinion as a biologist, is not viable for the reasons you give. I can see such a hybridization as useful but definitely not for the motives you pose. The military use of these hybrids is just not feasible and the domestic capabilities are even less dependable. Look at the advances in technology and compare. The abilities of such a hybrid will not outweigh those of electronics alone, without the ethical and religious factions getting involved.

 

[valiens]

*Stalin told the scientist: "I want a new invincible human being, insensitive to pain, resistant and indifferent about the quality of food they eat."*

We a;ready have those. They're called "Americans."

 

[mike]

it was 20 years ago my high school science teacher told me about human sperm being able to fertilise sheep eggs, but he stressed the product does not run full term naturally.
however a search of the key words turns up "dolly the sheep"

and now of course human sheep hybrids are a reality

http://www.livescience.com/ap_050430_human_animal.html

i recently saw a trailer for an upcoming TV doco about the IVF program
according to the trailer the US was at the forefront of the research, but when it came to pratical application the US public had issues with it, claiming it was playing god
(without the ethical and religious factions getting involved )
however the public soon became ok with the idea and now "designer babies" are happening all the times, mothers selecting from catalogs the genotypes that suit them best, selecting for not just brains but beauty as well.

moving away from the chimp which seems to confuse the issue, how about i use chameleon (reptoid) genes to give my otherwise human soldier green skin, there is no moral or ethical diffence between doing so, and the rancher who breeds himself a mule as a pack animal.

one animal is quadraped, the other bipedal, both are animals not people, with all that it entails.
its not slavery for a rancher to use a mule to cart stuff around, why would this be any different because the animal "resembles" us.

its funny 40 years ago, articles like the british one would have included at least one paragraph from a church spokesman about the matter, now its not on the radar.

i suspect that like IVF, there will be some opposition at first, but eventually the benefits will show themselfs to outweigh any mental anguish they may create .

IVF babies are now walking and talking in every city in the developed world, im certain that a percentage of those mothers choosing genes for intelligence and physical fitness, would happily have the egg to be implanted further modified by GM tech to be disease resistant etc

i dont see a difference between creating an animal to work on the farm thats 4 legged (mule) and one thats 2 legged (human template GELF . Genetically Modified Life Form)
its just a Bio Form, the religious can picket all they want, their own bible states we have dominion over all the animals that walk fly and swim, why should an creating our own be an issue