Hysteria drives UFO gatekeepers debunking exopolitics pioneers

[Ted Roe]

There is a big difference between "temporarily accept all input" and actively promoting stories that are so obviously false. The fact that Salla will ride this into the ground and claim that his effort was thwarted by the intelligence community when it was only Dr. Vallee, Reality Uncovered and I doing the work that he did not do or knew would reveal his false claims is proof that he is either unhinged or dishonest or both. Take a look at the rest of his missives and see the same process of hacked together theories being promoted as facts. You see it over and over again, theories based on speculation suddenly being offered as fact. Often the material is pirated from the work of others and they are not referenced or named...
There is a great article on RU about "Cults" and it focuses on Exopolitics as a cult. A collection of belief systems with very little basis in reality led on by personalities willing to claim anything to stay in front of and on the receiving end of the gullible.
Again, you mention thta it would be logical to temporarily accept all input - is that really grounds to offer a certification course in Galactic Diplomacy for $1500 - especially when one knows so very little about the actual aliens, the actual events, the actual facts of alien incursions? Mr. Salla thinks thats just fine...
The fact that he simply can't say "I was wrong and should not have put this in the public domain as fact without a lot more research." is clearly evidence of an agenda, a bias and an inability to put honesty ahead of image... you tell me why. Like I said, unhinged or a con man or both...

 

[Kandinsky]

As if the UFO/UAP phenomena wasn't mysterious enough, it never fails to fascinate me how some ostensibly intelligent and thoughtful people gravitate to the Exopolitics and Project Camelot area of the subject. Despite the woeful record they have for backing the wrong horses and being proven as either naive or dishonest...some people still regard them as guiding lights in the subject.

This isn't contempt or facetiousness, it's a genuine bemusement. They somehow evade the credible researchers and research groups whilst repeatedly forgiving/overlooking the obvious shortcomings of the same people (Exo, Salla, Greer, Camelot etc) time after time.

After reading many of the early editions of Flying Saucer Review, the divisions haven't changed since the 50s.

 

[Ted Roe]

It took awhile for me to figure out how to use my bs detector to its fullest capability. I came to UFOlogy looking for answers to experiences that were quite uncomfortable and all I found was nonsense. When I realized that and got critical it became as important to confront the lunatics and the liars in the process because they make it even more difficult than it already is to find anything that is at all helpful. I think of Salla and company as beneath disdain and deserving of the negativity that comes their way. This is hard enough to deal with as it is without some self-important, arrogant, narcissist trying to keep it all focused on his own lunacy. I think that one of the principle defining characteristics of many ufo experiencers is PTSD. When you have it then dealing with creeps and losers takes on a "crusade" like quality.
I have no doubt that a lot of people end up floundering around in UFOlogy and as their ability to detect the bs and dig around in the information improves they probably move away from orgs that fail the smell test. At the same time there is always a fresh crop of wide-eyed newbies to take advantage of.
I think that Salla and Webre are really a deplorable lot and the damage they have done to this study could not be worse if it was intentional. I am not so certain that it isn't. When I see Salla in public, and I do from time-to-time, there is something in his body language. Especially when he sees me.... Maybe its because I won't call him "Dr." or its because I attacked his UN UFO meeting story so quickly and sank his first witness in a matter of hours, or maybe its because he is a con man and he thinks I have his number... its something...For those of you who don't know, I live most of the time on the South Kona coast of the Big Island and run into him and his ilk from time to time. I see him down at the water when freediving (http://www.everbluefreediving.com) and the energy I get coming off of him is not one of confidence and assurance when our eyes meet..

I called him on his UN meeting very early in the game and, sure enough, I was right about it. After all of his wiggling around he is faced with having to create a fiction about Source "A" failsafe process to allow him to be removed from the situation whereby he will be free to work on other extraterrestrial-related covert missions... This fiction is created out of whole cloth to simply provide some cover for the complete and utter dismantling of a story Salla had been working for everything it was worth over a couple of years. It really is a pathetic bit of fiction that is, like so much else of Sallas commentary, based on nothing but his word that it happened as he said it did...

 

[Anaximander]

You nailed it Ted.

The whole exopolitics business is a sham and it does us no good. One of the worst parts about it is how bloody well entrenched it has become, to the point where I think it won't be going away anytime soon.

That being said, I'm glad we have folks like you out there in the field whose methodology and credibility lend some real credence to the thing, so kudos to you for doing such great work.

 

[Skymon876]

It took awhile for me to figure out how to use my bs detector to its fullest capability. I came to UFOlogy looking for answers to experiences that were quite uncomfortable and all I found was nonsense. When I realized that and got critical it became as important to confront the lunatics and the liars in the process because they make it even more difficult than it already is to find anything that is at all helpful. I think of Salla and company as beneath disdain and deserving of the negativity that comes their way. This is hard enough to deal with as it is without some self-important, arrogant, narcissist trying to keep it all focused on his own lunacy. I think that one of the principle defining characteristics of many ufo experiencers is PTSD. When you have it then dealing with creeps and losers takes on a "crusade" like quality.
I have no doubt that a lot of people end up floundering around in UFOlogy and as their ability to detect the bs and dig around in the information improves they probably move away from orgs that fail the smell test. At the same time there is always a fresh crop of wide-eyed newbies to take advantage of.
I think that Salla and Webre are really a deplorable lot and the damage they have done to this study could not be worse if it was intentional. I am not so certain that it isn't. When I see Salla in public, and I do from time-to-time, there is something in his body language. Especially when he sees me.... Maybe its because I won't call him "Dr." or its because I attacked his UN UFO meeting story so quickly and sank his first witness in a matter of hours, or maybe its because he is a con man and he thinks I have his number... its something...For those of you who don't know, I live most of the time on the South Kona coast of the Big Island and run into him and his ilk from time to time. I see him down at the water when freediving (http://www.everbluefreediving.com) and the energy I get coming off of him is not one of confidence and assurance when our eyes meet..

I called him on his UN meeting very early in the game and, sure enough, I was right about it. After all of his wiggling around he is faced with having to create a fiction about Source "A" failsafe process to allow him to be removed from the situation whereby he will be free to work on other extraterrestrial-related covert missions... This fiction is created out of whole cloth to simply provide some cover for the complete and utter dismantling of a story Salla had been working for everything it was worth over a couple of years. It really is a pathetic bit of fiction that is, like so much else of Sallas commentary, based on nothing but his word that it happened as he said it did...

RU's blog and attempt to discredit Bob Salas is a bit concerning.

Why does RU use a flip flopping story changing unreliable witness like Eric Carlson as their main source of information, when Carlson is not reliable, RU uses him as their voice piece yet he changes his story more than a used diaper. Eric Carlsons lack of credibility has tampered RU's entire expose slap job on Malmstrom AFB, which they seemed to solve by using google or twitter. RU should pick a better case than Malmstrom to debunk and not pick cases that are too much for them to handle.


In the meantime Hastings and the other 3 Malmstrom AFB witnesses have not changed their story

Ironically RU decided only to mention the unreliable witness as their source of information.

Lets see who am I going to believe Ted? the unreliable person (mr.carlson)
or the other 3 who have signed notarized affidavits to back up their testimony of the Malmstrom Echo missile shutdown.

and RU picks the unreliable one yet we are supposed to think RU is the outlet for credibility

and the FOIA documents support Salas not Carlson

RU did a good job with Salla but this time RU bit off a bit more than they are capable of chewing and their lack of experience, possibly being the new kids on the block is why they are making so many mistakes and forgetting to actually do the ground work.

Sitting on a computer in the UK is not going to land the hard facts of a UFO case, instead you have to get on the ground and actually do foot work .

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Your falling over for RU's blog and attempt to discredit Bob Salas is a bit concerning.

Why does RU use a flip flopping story changing unreliable witness like Eric Carlson as their main source of information, when Carlson is not reliable, RU uses him as their voice piece yet he changes his story more than a used diaper. Eric Carlsons lack of credibility has tampered RU's entire expose slap job on Malmstrom AFB, which they seemed to solve by using google or twitter. RU should pick a better case than Malmstrom to debunk and not pick cases that are too much for them to handle.


In the meantime Hastings and the other 3 Malmstrom AFB witnesses have not changed their story

Ironically RU decided only to mention the unreliable witness as their source of information.

Lets see who am I going to believe Ted? the unreliable person (mr.carlson)
or the other 3 who have signed notarized affidavits to back up their testimony of the Malmstrom Echo missile shutdown.

and RU picks the unreliable one yet we are supposed to think RU is the outlet for credibility

and the FOIA documents support Salas not Carlson

RU did a good job with Salla but this time RU bit off a bit more than they are capable of chewing and their lack of experience, possibly being the new kids on the block is why they are making so many mistakes and forgetting to actually do the ground work.

Sitting on a computer in the UK is not going to land the hard facts of a UFO case, instead you have to get on the ground and actually do foot work .

I want to try an understand this - what is the conclusion of Hastings? What does he think happened there?

 

[Ted Roe]

Thanx, Aniximander,

This is a serious situation and treating it like an infomercial and acting like a dedicated researcher while fleecing everyone within reach is beyond contemptible. Personally, there are a lot better subjects that I could be spending my time on but if we who are trying to make a difference don't slap these storytellers and con men down then we are judged as they are.
A few years ago, through the efforts of Leslie Kean, we managed to get Dr. Vallee and Dr. Haines into several briefings with Congressmen on the subject of UAP. Also in attendance at the first meeting was Edgar Mitchell. By the time he was finished talking in the first meeting he had destroyed any hope of "turnng" that congressmen to our cause. It was all because of the airy-fairy lunacy that he likes to spread around. Now, maybe there is some validity to ESP and the rest but nobody is ready for that conversation, yet. The research to back it up has not been done and speculation just sounds so silly to the uninitiated that it is likely to be ignored if not ridiculed. In other words, we need to know what it is we know, who we want to know it, why we want them to know it and what we expect to gain from it. If we just go around spewing nonsense and failing to take the subject and the acts of communication about it seriously we can't expect society to take us seriously.
Salla fully expects to be taken seriously regardless of the "rules of crediblity". He admits that his speculations are just hacked together from different sources on the net and are not vetted nor are they proved yet he fights and defends and obfuscates as if its fact. He demands to be taken seriously and that demand is just not enough. He lectures me on calling him "Dr." but he has turned his back on everything that means. He has long ago foregone any pretense of respecting the rules f publication, journalism, scientific method, deductive logic and reasoning but demands that his PhD in Gov be respected as some kind of qualification. He was removed from his academic and field position because he was not able to live up to the basic standards of a Professor... It irks him to no end that I don't use his title, intentionally, and he has written page long lectures to me on why he is due that respect. I just laugh in his face because, as all of us who live in the real world know, respect is earned not demanded..
Bottom line, it isn't just our work at NARCAP that is important for its focus on objectivity and the rules of science and publication, its the people out there that read and support our efforts who are discriminating and intelligent enough in their own right to know the difference between honest research and "hacking stuff together on the internet" that give the UAP matter relevance. One good white paper in the hands of a single discriminating reader is worth more than a years worth of Salla and Webre conning the gullible...
There are other researchers with equally high standards and, collectively, we have to resist the rise of nonsense and sloppy thinking promoted by con men like Salla and the Exos...

 

[Skymon876]

This is not an attack on Ted Roe I just happened to post that in reply to him.

Angel as far as what does Hastings think well I could write a damn book but I think it will fill up this entire forum. No seriously I wish I had more time right now to explain everything, but I don't

If I can find a good article on what hastings thinks I will link it

Here is my point why would Robert Salas and Robert Hastings spend 15,000 dollars of their own money to hold a press conference and go through the trouble of having signed notarized affidavits just to have fun and make up some big story.

RU did a good job with Source A and Salla

but I am sorry guys I have to say RU should pick other cases to debunk I can think of about ten thousand hoaxes more worth the time than this one

sorry Angel I think you will need to hear it from Hastings himself to see what he thinks, I bet its complicated
sorry if I am no help

again this is not an attack on Ted Roe

p.s. I saw that Reality Uncovered's next hitjob article will be to try and EXPOSE leslie kean as a fraud.

sorry folks but what are the guys at RU smoking?

I am out

have to get to work

out

---------- Post added at 07:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:34 AM ----------

Ted I have the utmost respect for you.

listen to this however

I saw that Reality Uncovered is planning an Expose article on LESLIE KEAN next.

how does that float you?

 

[Decker]

He has long ago foregone any pretense of respecting the rules f publication, journalism, scientific method, deductive logic and reasoning but demands that his PhD in Gov be respected as some kind of qualification. He was removed from his academic and field position because he was not able to live up to the basic standards of a Professor... It irks him to no end that I don't use his title, intentionally, and he has written page long lectures to me on why he is due that respect.[/I] .

Ted, this caught my eye. Would you please expound on what happened with Salla in his academic position? From what you just said my impression is he was tossed from his position? My facts on this are somewhat sparse .. I usually do not concentrate on loons.

Decker

 

[Skymon876]

Again Ted sorry if it seemed like I was refering to you I wasnt
obviously this has nothing to do with Narcap or your work
so we are both observers

and Angel I am sorry if I am not answering your question

maybe Hastings would be a good next guest for the paracast

anyhow

Peace all

and Ted I support you man

 

[Angel of Ioren]

Again Ted sorry if it seemed like I was refering to you I wasnt
obviously this has nothing to do with Narcap or your work
so we are both observers

and Angel I am sorry if I am not answering your question

maybe Hastings would be a good next guest for the paracast

anyhow

Peace all

and Ted I support you man

No worries RygyWa - I wasn't necessarily asking you directly. I just hope that he's not one of those that thinks that the only possible explanation is non-human technology.

 

[Ted Roe]

Hi Decker,
If you check his Wikipedia page you will see :Salla's most recent academic position was in Washington at American University, Center for Global Peace. The Center did not sanction his ufological research, and emphasizes that it is personal.[1] Controversy eventually led to Salla's dismissal from the university.

 

[Skymon876]

No worries RygyWa - I wasn't necessarily asking you directly. I just hope that he's not one of those that thinks that the only possible explanation is non-human technology.

No I think Hastings is very grounded and practical. Hastings has a low tolerance for B.S. that is why I enjoy his research.

He has flaws just like we all do, even me:

 

[Ted Roe]

@Ryan,
No worries, we can talk about this. I know only so much about this. As for RU going after Leslie, good luck with that. If they come off with something untoward I will speak in support of her. Fact is that there isn't a lot to denigrate her about. She has written some good articles and done some good work. I have never had a conversation with her that didn't reinforce my sense of her sincerity and focus. She made a lot of opps happen for us and for others..

As for Hastings, again I am concerned that his primary witnesses (Figel and Carlson) both deny his story and claim to have denied it all along and yet he continues to promote them as strong witnesses... If my witnesses were out in public claiming that I was fully and completely misrepresenting them I would be hard at work setting the matter straight...

Like I said before, i grew up in Great Falls, MT. My Dad was a dual rated ATC who worked at both Great Falls Int and Malmstrom. He was involved in UFO chase programs ran by the AF out of 29Palms back in the late 50s.. I have been all around that area and know that UFO are seen there, I have seen them there myself. My concern is for the way the presentation is going out without a response to the critics....

Ted

 

[Skymon876]

I just silently said to myself:

"WHAT IN THE HELL AM I DOING IN THIS FIELD" "WHATS THE POINT"?????????

 

[tyder001]

I think the latest rants by the folks here may be one reason why folks like me with no "dog in the hunt" just turn off the u.f.o. stuff somtimes. The constant "he/she spoke to greer,or some other "discredited" type so we don't take em seroiusly. The whole he/she is a loon,idiot,charlatan,blah,blah,blah. My scientist can beat up your scientist. Blah,blah,blah! ESP isn't documented (lie) although you might not "agree" with the documentation a short search through google or your public library could enlighten you. Anyway, on and on and on and on. Debunk him/her blah,blah,blah.

I don't actually "beleive" they will find life on other planets. I don't beleive u.f.o's (as alein craft) exist but I don't really know. What I do know is everytime I read or hear about a "reseacher" I then read about how "stupid" or loony or dishonest they are. You folks in this field don't really need Jimmy Randi or Phil Klass or other psudo skeptics. You do a great job of eating your own.

 

[Ted Roe]

That is a good question that everyone should be asking themselves often....
UFOlogy seems so very different than simply researching an answer to a difficult
question. Its unresolved nature calls for a hardy soul if you are going to wade in.
I knew, long ago, that I wouldn't get what I was looking for out of it. I wanted
answers to some very puzzling questions and I got involved as part of the process
of trying to help change the situation. Sometimes I forget that and get emotionally
distraught over all of it.
The bottom line is that if we want to get to the facts we have to be disciplined and
hold the line. Sometimes that involves confrontations, it always calls for critical
thinking.
I think that its like a Zen Koan.... you keep pushing with discipline for an answer that
is not forthcoming. You might get to enlightenment before you get what you want
out of this...

 

[Skymon876]

I think the latest rants by the folks here may be one reason why folks like me with no "dog in the hunt" just turn off the u.f.o. stuff somtimes. The constant "he/she spoke to greer,or some other "discredited" type so we don't take em seroiusly. The whole he/she is a loon,idiot,charlatan,blah,blah,blah. My scientist can beat up your scientist. Blah,blah,blah! ESP isn't documented (lie) although you might not "agree" with the documentation a short search through google or your public library could enlighten you. Anyway, on and on and on and on. Debunk him/her blah,blah,blah.

I don't actually "beleive" they will find life on other planets. I don't beleive u.f.o's (as alein craft) exist but I don't really know. What I do know is everytime I read or hear about a "reseacher" I then read about how "stupid" or loony or dishonest they are. You folks in this field don't really need Jimmy Randi or Phil Klass or other psudo skeptics. You do a great job of eating your own.

Wait till the first UFO infomercial or the UFO Billy Mays

it only gets better:

 

[tyder001]

That is a good question that everyone should be asking themselves often....
UFOlogy seems so very different than simply researching an answer to a difficult
question. Its unresolved nature calls for a hardy soul if you are going to wade in.
I knew, long ago, that I wouldn't get what I was looking for out of it. I wanted
answers to some very puzzling questions and I got involved as part of the process
of trying to help change the situation. Sometimes I forget that and get emotionally
distraught over all of it.
The bottom line is that if we want to get to the facts we have to be disciplined and
hold the line. Sometimes that involves confrontations, it always calls for critical
thinking.
I think that its like a Zen Koan.... you keep pushing with discipline for an answer that
is not forthcoming. You might get to enlightenment before you get what you want
out of this...

Point taken. But, I still find all the "infighting" and name calling distasteful.

 

[Ted Roe]

Tyder,
If we don't police our own we are complicit in their failings. It is a simple matter to investigate the credibility of various people. There are not that many "scientists" in this study. Most are laypeople with various levels of academic and intellectual strength that take on different aspects of the study. If we don't discriminate and focus, concentrate on what is truly knowledge vs speculative nonsense, sloppy research, misinformation, disinformation and cons we will get nowhere...
If people are being lied to for money, I will eat those folks with fava beans and nice Chianti. They are not "our own" and do damage to the real efforts to get to the bottom of this... Even in mainstream science there is debate and peer review and most of it is at least as nasty as what goes on in UFOlogy every day... I think its a sign of life and health that its happening...