I Found This Rather Neat...Grimsley's Work

[tyder001]

I do not subscribe to this at all. My reason is that if we look at humans and ants, what do we have in common? We eat, live on the earth, breath, reproduce etc but further than that, nothing really. We have no reason to think ants have a culture or technology or rational (or any) thought.

I am so much in agreement with this. I have often felt the same way. After all if ants and/or coyotes start to build monuments and worship or do science then we would certainly "notice" them. So, no I don't think we would be "ants" to them. Also, Doctor Jane Goodall did so much work with apes that she came to a place of "seeing" them as more than mere animals. I certainly think an advanced race would see us at least a little higher than we do apes. Also, I saw a picture in National Geographic a couple of years ago. Chimps were actually "looking" on and seemed to be grieving a dead comrade at a preserve as the humans removed the body. Things like this and other encounters with the animal world have left me with more of a respect for "life" on this planet than I had before. So, yeah I think we would be more than ants to them. If there is a them.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I do not subscribe to this at all. My reason is that if we look at humans and ants, what do we have in common? We eat, live on the earth, breath, reproduce etc but further than that, nothing really. We have no reason to think ants have a culture or technology or rational (or any) thought.

I am so much in agreement with this. I have often felt the same way. After all if ants and/or coyotes start to build monuments and worship or do science then we would certainly "notice" them. So, no I don't think we would be "ants" to them. Also, Doctor Jane Goodall did so much work with apes that she came to a place of "seeing" them as more than mere animals. I certainly think an advanced race would see us at least a little higher than we do apes. Also, I saw a picture in National Geographic a couple of years ago. Chimps were actually "looking" on and seemed to be grieving a dead comrade at a preserve as the humans removed the body. Things like this and other encounters with the animal world have left me with more of a respect for "life" on this planet than I had before. So, yeah I think we would be more than ants to them. If there is a them.

Indeed = if there is a 'them'!
nice new profile pic tyder001!

 

[trainedobserver]

The insect vs human being example is just an illustration of the profound differences that could exist between human beings and some other intelligent species from some other planet. Our senses, minds, and perception of who we are in relation to the universe could be so different as to be incomparable. We might be so different at such a fundamental level psychologically and physically that interaction may not be practical or desirable for them or us. If they are actually here , it would explain why there is no open contact with some sort of cultural exchange going on.

Also, we can't discount the role of a species prejudice or religious aversion to associating with lower creatures or something of that sort. We imagine that some space faring species that could find its way here from across the void would have abandoned petty prejudices and bigotry but that is just an assumption based on wishful thinking. The use of "advanced" technology in no way indicates any spiritual, philosophical, or moral "advancement" or correlation with anything that we understand as such.

IMHO a lot of people are betting that a visiting alien civilization will be some sort of Buddhist Santa Claus fairy tale utopia when we have no reason to think they couldn't just as easily be the opposite. Although I do have to tell you, a Buddhist Santa Claus fairy tale utopia is scary enough.

 

[trainedobserver]

After all if ants and/or coyotes start to build monuments and worship or do science then we would certainly "notice" them.

Do dolphins have a religion or some concept of science? How would we know? Ants enslave other species, farm them, etc., etc., etc. Do you imagine we have any real idea about what goes on in the ant mind? All that really gives us the upper hand on ants is scale. Were our roles reversed, we might suffer the fate of being farmed by them. I doubt they would care much about our culture or technology.

Anthropomorphizing the unknown and unknowable seems risky.

 

[tyder001]

We might be so different at such a fundamental level psychologically and physically that interaction may not be practical or desirable for them or us. If they are actually here , it would explain why there is no open contact with some sort of cultural exchange going on.

Certainly possible. Although if they were that much different then I would fail to see what use coming here at all would be to them. Still, while I see your point I don't "think" that is what is happening. I do think the black ops argument has legs. Except, as it relates to the more ancient encounters. I'm very skeptical of an E.T. presence but I have to admit. Some of the conversations on the forums at least cause me to think and rethink some of my opinions.


Do dolphins have a religion or some concept of science? How would we know? Ants enslave other species, farm them, etc., etc., etc. Do you imagine we have any real idea about what goes on in the ant mind? All that really gives us the upper hand on ants is scale. Were our roles reversed, we might suffer the fate of being farmed by them. I doubt they would care much about our culture or technology.

Anthropomorphizing the unknown and unknowable seems risky.


You have a point on the ants. Could we know? Maybe it all comes down to who and what we actually are. I still think if they are on our scale and coming here that at least gives the very real possibilty that they can relate to us on some level.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@T.O - absolutely, there is no reason to think ET would be benign. like the 'borg' they could have a super-intelligent hive mind bent on doing whatever they want regardless of us etc.
However, whatever form an intelligence has, if it has gotten here from far away, we can assume it has built something using the most advanced chemistry and engineering and understanding of physics and astronomy.
But having raw intelligence is not enough. Nothing can get to such an advanced technology without going through stages discovery, one further on than the last.
I contend no species can be advanced in technology without having gone through a long time of research and study, making advances and mistakes. It takes a lot just to actually build tools with which you can build more complex machines etc. All this takes a will to discover and carry on when things do not go your way. It takes patience and acceptance of failure. It most certainly would take some sort of cooperation, even if it is enforced.
So i still think an technologically advanced alien culture would have to have quite a lot in common with us, even if it is just an appreciation of science. It would be easy for such a culture to guess, that barring nothing getting in our way, that we will continue to become more advanced and maybe one day be on par with such a culture.
Of course i say nothing about social or 'spiritual' advancement. The Nazis were very advanced but were they socially responsible and caring? Not on your nelly!

 

[tyder001]

I'm dating myself here. But, I remember a long ago t.v. interview (Merv Griffin, Donahoo, Mike Douglas?) I'm not sure. But, a young scientist named Carl Sagan was being interviewed. Long before vcr's so there was no way to preserve it even if I'd had the presence of mind to do it. I still remember him saying we couldn't know what an alien would be like. They might be shaped like pogo sticks and hop around for all we know. I think back then the interviewer was talking with Sagan about alien worlds more than alien visitation. Man, I wish I knew which show that was or even the year. Mabe I could find it on youtube. I doubt it, but it would be a neat find.

 

[trainedobserver]

I still say the scariest scenario imaginable is meeting other human beings in space. We know what vicious deceptive killers human beings can be. They will say and do anything to accomplish their goals. They are driven by emotions and inner forces they neither understand or control. They will rob you blind and attempt to save your soul at the same time. Imagine being discovered by such creatures with a major technological edge on us. I'd rather face down a 12 ft Praying Mantis who wants have my hybrid baby than that.

 

[tyder001]

Humans, their the worst! But, seriously you have a point there.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@T.O i once read a line that was something like: the scariest thing on the planet is another human being hunting you. imagine a similar race to us meeting us in space - i know what most of our political 'hawks' would say, 'we have to hit them first before they hit us' - scary but 100% accurate. we have to hope if ET is here they are morally superior to us, otherwise they probably would have a good reason to annihilate us, just by watching how dangerous SOME of us are to one another. of course, as often it goes, the few f**k it up for the many.

 

[trainedobserver]

I honestly think that the real reason that they don't "land on the While House lawn" is because they realize we will recognize each other as natural enemies on sight and literally go for each others throats. Giant insets, reptilians, bizarre fetus like greys, ... come on now, we are programmed in our DNA to kill these things without remorse or much thought. They fit the imprint of pests, predators, and unnatural beasts. We stomp these things to keep them out of our yards. There will be a point where all of our love and light philosophical mussing will fall away when primal instincts and prejudices naturally arise. I think advanced aliens who travel the galaxy probably picked up early on the dangers of inter-species communication and competition. In this scenario their true intentions may be good in remaining aloof.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

@T.O - well said and really, we can guess as much as we like but we most certainly do not know. despite similarities in understanding of science etc, there may well be a huge gap in outlook and behaviour. just within our own earth we have regimes and leaders who are hellbent on taking their own ideology to everwhere else, presumably so that no-one is sufficiently different to pose a threat. if we can expect to have neighbours that are enemies within our own species on our own planet then there may well be the same out in space.
probably one of the nightmare scenarios would be if ET had fundamentalist religious beliefs of their own and they feel fully justified in removing anyone or thing that does not agree. there are religious people on earth who would happily slay non-believers and think that god has given them the absolute right to impose their thinking on the rest of the world. what if there is a species with that mentality out in space with a galactic religious agenda! if they had the power to back it up also, it doesn't get any scarier than that.
I know when people use the whole 'white house lawn' thing, it is as much a metaphor as it is a prediction of a real event, but that presumes a few things.
firstly, that it would be the US that aliens would choose to contact first.
secondly, that it would be a government body they would contact and not 'ordinary' people.
if any historical stories about contact are to be believed, then it seemed that it was not the kings or queens or leaders that were singled out for contact. across the world, it seemed to be quite ordinary people contacted and not even neccessarily the most advanced people!
I do think Star Trek had something with the whole 'first contact' and 'prime directive' deal. If ET is here then i can believe them possilby not initiating contact until we as a people are ready of our own volition to entertain the possibility of contact. the only way for them to know when we have reached such an understanding on our own, would probably be for them to moniter us on the quiet?

 

[Randall]

Actually the guy at the end there who mentioned something about being stranded here​

since his ship crashed was rather strange. At first I also thought this was about​

Ed Grimley's Work ( not Ed Grimsley ). Here we see Ed Grimley​

reviewing some of his own work:​