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Michael Allen said:
Well we've also seen self-organization in matter, so by what criterion do we separate self-organization in matter from organization by consciousness? It would appear that (unfortunately for consciousness--loosely speaking) we either use a criteria based on our own conscious grasp of the situation regarding the imprint of "matter" (or the idea of matter which we are unable to sometimes distinguish) or we throw it out and talk about material things as if the very idea of their existence had some meaning in the scheme of things. Both positions are untenable due to the very (probably false) assumption that they are independent. So when you say "demonstrable" what I hear is "demonstrable within a consciousness-matter dichotomy system" Consciousness applies some kind of intended force to matter and then adjusts its understanding by the response, however is unable to see it own self-organizing roots. This limitation cannot be explicated in the consciouness-matter dualism, as the consciousness (read: spirit) strives to make everything material (which is an idea or concept) for consciousness. How else do we see "self-organizing" behavior other than some mysterious "hidden hand" or "intelligence" that seems to pervade the self-organized system? We instantly apply intentionality to it because we ourselves do not have the cognitive framework to think otherwise. What we have is some kind of "intentionality" prejudice that prevents us from making clear the criterion above (self-organized matter vs consciousness organized matter) -- in fact the harder we try to make that criterion explicit, the further and further consciousness itself blends into the very landscape of its background: matter.

My solution is to dispense with the dualism from the start and let the questions evaporate.
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I have read only a surface level smattering of what is proposed as self organizational within nature. So I really cannot pretend to do it justice. The problem with what is being deemed self organizational (in some/not all cases hence my lack of familiarity) is that it's classified as such post observation. When I state demonstrable I am referring to the repeatable/verifiable lab controlled measurements of electron activity post and minus observation per their consistently predictable behavior and/or organizational patterns. Observation of course representing sentient awareness/consciousness.
 
Jeff Davis said:
I have read only a surface level smattering of what is proposed as self organizational within nature. So I really cannot pretend to do it justice. The problem with what is being deemed self organizational (in some/not all cases hence my lack of familiarity) is that it's classified as such post observation. When I state demonstrable I am referring to the repeatable/verifiable lab controlled measurements of electron activity post and minus observation per their consistently predictable behavior and/or organizational patterns. Observation of course representing sentient awareness/consciousness.
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Interesting, however I don't think the electron activity is responding to the observation qua consciousness at the end as much as it is in the very tools and procedures that were used to do the detection. As Julian Schwinger points out in the chapter on "measurement algebra," (lecture notes) a measurement is an act that occupies time and space. This occupation occurs regardless if the measurement in question is attended by some mental observer "watching" the instruments. Now we can probably debate the intentionality component somehow latent in the apparatus itself and state it as some kind of quasi-inert matter somehow infused with consciousness residue (I am not really endorsing this or trying to make fun of it...its an interesting problem in its own right)--however its not clear (at least to my reading of the quantum mechanics literature) that the physicist's brain or mind watching the apparatus doing the measurement is a necessary component of the so-called "observer effect." Clearly the measurement algebra itself doesn't follow laws that depend on some mental activity behind the pencil--i.e. the anti-commutation problems (which are at the core of the observer effect) do not depend on some mood parameter.
 
Objection!
The world I perceive is a hologram which exists only when I perceive it. When I pull my teflon kevlar linen bed sheet over my head it seems to go away.

Where does thou go to my lovely? When ever I see you your here.
Where does thou go to my lovely? The moment your gone you appear. Yes you do, you know you do, you really do.
 
I can't believe I started getting into Peter Sarstedt, but I would like to hear more from Jeff Davis about consciousness preceeding matter. I really like the idea of imagining consciousness in new ways, especially as something that is beamed in. The moment you're gone you appear. I love that.
 
Michael/Burnt State/et al.
I apologize for the lack of response. Was just insanely busy this past week at work, and frankly, that's where I am at good 75% of the time when responding. After having read through the following thread that Michael just posted to bringing it back from the depths of it's much undeserved obscurity, I feel it best and far more in context to direct this discussion to it's continuation there.


ATECH ( Alien Technology ) May Explain Paranormal Phenomena | Page 3 | The Paracast Community Forums
 
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