In praise of U.S citizens

[flipper]

The Air Farce used to be a radio show. In one show they talked about early immigrants to Canada. The joke was that all those who wanted to build and invent went to the U.S. All those who wanted index pensions went to Canada The second joke that comes to mind was about war with the U.S. They joked that Canada would fire lawyers across the border because it had an endless supply.

The citizens of the U.S. are dynamic. You cannot hold them down on anything. There is a wide variety of views on any subject. Only in the U.S. for example could you have a group who is socialist, lesbian and Christian. I think there are more people in the U.S. working for truth and justice than anywhere else.

Here is an example of how what I am talking about. Ownership in the hands of the people, not the state or a few rich people. There are others, for example, the preppies and survivalist have another version about what to do. Here is the interview that brought all this to mind, start at about 8:30:

Here is the website that he is talking about:
http://community-wealth.org./
The whole series is interesting:
What Would You Do If You Had Political Power? - Gar Alperovitz on Reality
Asserts Itself (5/5)

 

[Charlie Prime]

The world will not improve until all these retarded old commies die off.

 

[flipper]

Hi Charlie:
Thank you for responding to my post. I am interested in what kind of government you would like. A constitutional government that works, that you have or had at some point? No government and no laws that makes you an anarchist? A plutocracy,government of the corporations, a king? What is your vision. I am not sure what you do not like but I have no idea what your vision is for the kind of world that you want. I do want a discussion thread as opposed to an argument thread. Please reply, I really am interested.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

 

[manxman]

one man, one vote, representation by majority nomination.

 

[pduchesne]

The Air Farce used to be a radio show. In one show they talked about early immigrants to Canada. The joke was that all those who wanted to build and invent went to the U.S. All those who wanted index pensions went to Canada The second joke that comes to mind was about war with the U.S. They joked that Canada would fire lawyers across the border because it had an endless supply.

The citizens of the U.S. are dynamic. You cannot hold them down on anything. There is a wide variety of views on any subject. Only in the U.S. for example could you have a group who is socialist, lesbian and Christian. I think there are more people in the U.S. working for truth and justice than anywhere else.

Here is an example of how what I am talking about. Ownership in the hands of the people, not the state or a few rich people. There are others, for example, the preppies and survivalist have another version about what to do. Here is the interview that brought all this to mind, start at about 8:30:

Here is the website that he is talking about:
http://community-wealth.org./
The whole series is interesting:
What Would You Do If You Had Political Power? - Gar Alperovitz on Reality
Asserts Itself (5/5)

This looks like a re-branding of Karl Marx's "workers paradise". It has been tried several times and has failed miserably each time. I'm afraid human nature won't allow such a system. I guess it could work with a relatively small number of people with similar abilities and ambitions. So, for instance, a bunch of hippies could get together and start an organic farm, or something like that. But run an internationally competitive corporation? I doubt it. Yeah, I know all about Ben and Jerry, but ice cream and yogurt isn't the kind of industrialism that feeds a nation.

I'll stick with the libertarian viewpoint: You do whatever you want and leave me alone to do whatever I want. The government can referee when what I want to do significantly interferes with what you want to do. The USA started with this philosophy, but it has been eroded over time and is becoming a welfare state. Actually all democracies are destined to become welfare states, so I guess it's pretty good we've lasted this long.

 

[manxman]

america a welfare state ?, thats a good one that, you are joking right ?.

you want to see proper successful welfare states, you need look no further than the nordic states, america a welfare state, yeah righto, there people count, everybody is important, even the economically un-viable ones.

but they spend their money on education and welfare, pensions and public facilities, you wont see much, if any, money wasted on armies and missiles, 500 million apiece on jets, billions on war ships, nope they just spent it, on learning, fixing, neuturing, caring, and modernising, for everyone.


The Nordic Model
The Nordic countries with their extensive welfare systems as well as high competitiveness have had the world’s economists scratching their heads for years. How can these countries top OECD rankings of equality between citizens and at the same time be among the world’s most competitive countries?

the answer is a simple one, dont spend 70% of your countries wealth on war, spend it on the people.

last year america taxed 5% of the worlds population, and spent 42% of the combined total money the world spent on its armed forces.

why does any country need armed forces that can wage full blown conventional war in 5 different theatres simultanously, whilst letting their own citizens who cannot afford life saving drugs die needlessly, im just askin, cos i dont get it.

 

[flipper]

This looks like a re-branding of Karl Marx's "workers paradise". It has been tried several times and has failed miserably each time. I'm afraid human nature won't allow such a system. I guess it could work with a relatively small number of people with similar abilities and ambitions. So, for instance, a bunch of hippies could get together and start an organic farm, or something like that. But run an internationally competitive corporation? I doubt it. Yeah, I know all about Ben and Jerry, but ice cream and yogurt isn't the kind of industrialism that feeds a nation.

I'll stick with the libertarian viewpoint: You do whatever you want and leave me alone to do whatever I want. The government can referee when what I want to do significantly interferes with what you want to do. The USA started with this philosophy, but it has been eroded over time and is becoming a welfare state. Actually all democracies are destined to become welfare states, so I guess it's pretty good we've lasted this long.

Socialism for the rich and free enterprise for the poor?

 

[Charlie Prime]

Please reply, I really am interested.

My vision is a society based on voluntary interactions between humans for things like sex, self-defence, and community projects.

I've studied this problem for thirty years. I got credentialed with a Master's degree in Political Economy from a world-class university where I studied economics, law, public administration, and public relations. I held a position in the U.S. Congress bureacracy. For many years I participated as an organizaer and party Officer in elections.

From this three decades of study I determined that the only rational, moral system for societal organization is an (without) archy (authorities).

Unfortunately, 90% the current human population would quickly perish without strong government because their capacity for self-government has been purposely destroyed by predators. This is why a free society can only be acheived by a long, slow campaign of education, the same way chattle slavery was mostly abolished in the 19th century.

Here's my video for you...

 

[pduchesne]

Socialism for the rich and free enterprise for the poor?

I see no better way out of being poor than free enterprise. Not sure what you mean by "socialism for the rich".

 

[flipper]

I see no better way out of being poor than free enterprise. Not sure what you mean by "socialism for the rich".

Basically it is that the rest of us get to pay the majority of the taxes while the rich get to use on what the taxes are spent.

 

[flipper]

My vision is a society based on voluntary interactions between humans for things like sex, self-defence, and community projects.

I've studied this problem for thirty years. I got credentialed with a Master's degree in Political Economy from a world-class university where I studied economics, law, public administration, and public relations. I held a position in the U.S. Congress bureacracy. For many years I participated as an organizaer and party Officer in elections.

From this three decades of study I determined that the only rational, moral system for societal organization is an (without) archy (authorities).

Unfortunately, 90% the current human population would quickly perish without strong government because their capacity for self-government has been purposely destroyed by predators. This is why a free society can only be acheived by a long, slow campaign of education, the same way chattle slavery was mostly abolished in the 19th century.

Here's my video for you...

Thanks Charlie, Keep explaining so that your wisdom is not lost.

 

[pduchesne]

Basically it is that the rest of us get to pay the majority of the taxes while the rich get to use on what the taxes are spent.

I guess I'm a little confused as to what you consider poor to be. Is the guy on the video poor? Is anybody but the "super rich" poor? The people I consider to be poor don't actually pay any tax at all, so I really don't know how to respond.

 

[flipper]

My vision is a society based on voluntary interactions between humans for things like sex, self-defence, and community projects.

I've studied this problem for thirty years. I got credentialed with a Master's degree in Political Economy from a world-class university where I studied economics, law, public administration, and public relations. I held a position in the U.S. Congress bureacracy. For many years I participated as an organizaer and party Officer in elections.

From this three decades of study I determined that the only rational, moral system for societal organization is an (without) archy (authorities).

Unfortunately, 90% the current human population would quickly perish without strong government because their capacity for self-government has been purposely destroyed by predators. This is why a free society can only be acheived by a long, slow campaign of education, the same way chattle slavery was mostly abolished in the 19th century.

Here's my video for you...

I do not disagree with anything that you have said and this my hope too.

 

[flipper]

I guess I'm a little confused as to what you consider poor to be. Is the guy on the video poor? Is anybody but the "super rich" poor? The people I consider to be poor don't actually pay any tax at all, so I really don't know how to respond.

Your right, my poor choice of words, by poor I mean none super rich [not the ruling class.]

 

[manxman]

how are americans ever going to get amerika back to the founding fathers vision for america, charlie, those with the power aint going to let go, its generational, the whole world would like to see america as it was meant to be, but not the amerika it has become.

 

[pduchesne]

[qthink t="flipper, post: 184561, member: 6529"]Your right, my poor choice of words, by poor I mean none super rich [not the ruling class.][/quote]
I thik

I do not disagree with anything that you have said and this my hope too.

Sorry to butt in, but flipper, you have me very confused. How can you say that the libertarianish sentiments and video posted by Charlie are your hope too, but then post links to Marxist videos? I'm not trying to be confrontational, as I genuinely appreciate your consistently civil tone. I just want to understand your thought process.

 

[pduchesne]

Your right, my poor choice of words, by poor I mean none super rich [not the ruling class.]

I think terms like "the super rich" or "the one percenters" are used by unscrupulous politicians to promote social envy which they use to get votes.

 

[Charlie Prime]

They are. The sick and twisted thing is that, government is the very weapon rich people use to harvest wealth from poor people and stay rich. Yet, the predators have poor people tricked into thinking government is the exact opposite, a weapon that protects the poor from the rich.

It's a brilliant system, completely evil, but brilliant nonetheless.

Last week I watched a five-part biography of Napoleon Bonaparte. What an azzhole. He killed three MILLION people (back when that was a large number of people) and became immensely wealthy. He accomplished that by playing on the envy of the lower classes, while at the same time looting them. Faces change, but the grift remains the same.

 

[Rizla]

Very interesting observations, Manxman. I've been to England but not yet the Isle of Man, unfortunately. Manx must have the coolest flag in the world.

A problem with this subject is (I read somewhere) that roughly 80% of our citizens don't hold passports (G.W. Bush first went to Europe after he was elected! A rich kid like that with absolutely NO curiosity about the place?), and have little to no first-hand knowledge about other countries that have tried different things. All we're told about is the high taxes. Of course we're conditioned to think our way is the only and best way. When I first went to Scandanavia, I expected a PJ O'Rourke-imagined dull, stagnant, conformist place. What a joke. The Scandanavians, letting their hair down on Midsummer's Eve, are some of the wildest free-thinkers on earth. A Nordic party quickly puts most of ours to shame. Isle of Man is dowsed with this stuff -- didn't you have an Alping-like government once upon a time, or you still do? Vikings and Celts and God knows what leaving DNA all over. Skol!

 

[manxman]

we have the oldest continuous parliament in the world rizla, over 1000 yrs of continuous government.

heres a vid of both the manx flag and our national anthem, we have a heavy nordic influence in our culture, we were ruled by them for centuries.

and if you can find a better anthem then let us know, cos ours is class.

these the memories that one random visitor got for his money, so will you if you visit us.