Insurrection USA 2021

[Gene Steinberg]

She was actually one of the demonstrators, but nobody deserves to die for all this. They were snookered into staging this riot by you know who.

 

[Randall]

She was actually one of the demonstrators, but nobody deserves to die for all this. They were snookered into staging this riot by you know who.

I am deeply saddened by Ashley's death, and as I said in my first post, her views and presence in the occupation are beside the point of that grief. However that doesn't mean her beliefs and actions aren't relevant to how she came to be in the situation she was killed in, and I think it reflects something really wrong with the worldviews of those who contributed to it, including that of the President.

I don't fully understand it. But it reflects something very dark that's taking place in the minds of the American people. Exactly whose minds are in these shadows, and which ones are simply gullible discontents I don't know, but Trump is a nexus or catalyst, even if he himself, doesn't realize it. If he could have been removed sooner, this woman would not have died.

I'm not seeing anyone in a position of leadership, or influence, capable of providing, or even inspiring a solution for this darkness. Trump may be like a car in a demolition derby driven by a madman, but if that's the analogy, then Biden is like a rust bucket on its last 2 cylinders driven by Grampa Simpson. How are the American people going to overcome this sinister mental/spiritual epidemic? The world needs to know.

 

[marduk]

She also had multiple restraining orders against her, and was tweeting things like ‘blacklivesdontmatter’ before she died in the violent coup attempt.

the photos of guys carrying zip strap cuffs and gallows are particularly chilling. And the reports of pipe bombs, guns, etc in the building.

she seems to have very much died as she lived. The secret service or police can clearly be heard telling her to stop as she rushed to be first through the window into the area where Pence and Pelosi were apparently sheltering.

I’m not saying I’m happy she was killed, but it very much looks like her own doing from my vantage point.

shooting her was totally justified. Just wish she had stopped, or that it was non-fatal.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Twitter has, in effect, dumped Trump:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2021/01/08/twitter-trump-dorsey/

 

[Randall]

She also had multiple restraining orders against her, and was tweeting things like ‘blacklivesdontmatter’ before she died in the violent coup attempt.

the photos of guys carrying zip strap cuffs and gallows are particularly chilling. And the reports of pipe bombs, guns, etc in the building.

she seems to have very much died as she lived. The secret service or police can clearly be heard telling her to stop as she rushed to be first through the window into the area where Pence and Pelosi were apparently sheltering.

I’m not saying I’m happy she was killed, but it very much looks like her own doing from my vantage point.

shooting her was totally justified. Just wish she had stopped, or that it was non-fatal.

All fair comment. But when I watched the video I linked to above with her lying on the floor dying, that's still how it affected me. She's someone's wife and someones daughter. So what if she had radical views? So long as she didn't actually injure anyone, and had no intent to injure anyone, shooting her in the neck seems excessive ( to me ).

Maybe I'm too empathetic for those I see suffering. I couldn't finish watching the whole thing, I was too saddened by it ( not grossed out - but deeply saddened ). Once upon a time she was someone's little girl, and 35 is way too young to die over some stupid cause. She believed her actions were being taken on the side of "light". No matter how out of touch with reality she might have been, her intentions weren't evil.

This is what I was trying to get at about a darkness that goes beyond this case. What is it that is shaping the worldviews of so many people down there? If it's not real and there's totally nothing to any of it, how come so many people have been drawn into it? Is it some foreign propaganda campaign? I don't know the answer. Can anyone help me understand this? Maybe start here?

Combating disinformation and foreign interference in democracies: Lessons from Europe | Brookings

Margaret Taylor draws lessons from European democracies for how the U.S. can anticipate and respond to disinformation during elections.

www.brookings.edu

 

[Randall]

What is Q Anon ?

 

[Randall]

More About Q Anon

 

[Randall]

Getting Out Of Q Anon

 

[marduk]

All fair comment. But when I watched the video I linked to above with her lying on the floor dying, that's still how it affected me. She's someone's wife and someones daughter. So what if she had radical views? So long as she didn't actually injure anyone, and had no intent to injure anyone, shooting her in the neck seems excessive ( to me ).

Maybe I'm too empathetic for those I see suffering. I couldn't finish watching the whole thing, I was too saddened by it ( not grossed out - but deeply saddened ). Once upon a time she was someone's little girl, and 35 is way too young to die over some stupid cause. She believed her actions were being taken on the side of "light". No matter how out of touch with reality she might have been, her intentions weren't evil.

This is what I was trying to get at about a darkness that goes beyond this case. What is it that is shaping the worldviews of so many people down there? If it's not real and there's totally nothing to any of it, how come so many people have been drawn into it? Is it some foreign propaganda campaign? I don't know the answer. Can anyone help me understand this? Maybe start here?

Combating disinformation and foreign interference in democracies: Lessons from Europe | Brookings

Margaret Taylor draws lessons from European democracies for how the U.S. can anticipate and respond to disinformation during elections.

www.brookings.edu

My empathy ended for Trump supporters a long time ago.

This woman was a violent racist that participated in a coup attempt on her own country, violating her own oaths and constitution. And she would have zero empathy for you for anything.

She died as she lived.

I do have empathy for her husband and children however. The lies and alternative facts need to end.

I have similar thinking for the same kind of conspiracy BS in the UFO field now. My Redfern and Marrs books are going in the trash. We see how dangerous conspiracy thinking is. We have been complicit in this, too.

 

[Randall]

My empathy ended for Trump supporters a long time ago.

This woman was a violent racist that participated in a coup attempt on her own country, violating her own oaths and constitution. And she would have zero empathy for you for anything.

She died as she lived.

I do have empathy for her husband and children however. The lies and alternative facts need to end.

I totally get your reasoning. None of that made any difference to me when I saw her lying on the floor fighting for her life. I feel sorry for anyone who lacks any sense of empathy when bearing witness to it. To me it's just another thing wrong with the world, and I'm sorry if that bothers you if you have watched the clip and don't feel anything.

If we want to address your reasoning alone, she was only 35, and had much of her life ahead of her. In 10 years she may have had a complete turn-around and realized she had been unwittingly caught-up in a cause that was built on fiction, illusion, and and propaganda. Her core motivation was good, even if she didn't see she'd been pointed in the wrong direction, and that tremendous potential for good has now been killed.

I have similar thinking for the same kind of conspiracy BS in the UFO field now. My Redfern and Marrs books are going in the trash. We see how dangerous conspiracy thinking is. We have been complicit in this, too.

Fundamentally, I look at Redfern's books the same way I look at any other. They are filed in a library type fashion for reference, not necessarily as statements of fact, or validation of any theory, but simply as books that put forth views that are among many in a much wider field of interest. When attempting to validate content, I do a cross reference with multiple independent sources.

More succinctly, I look at my library as a neutral repository where all content has potential value. I am therefore only "complicit" in exploring people's views, not necessarily in promoting them, and we also have the forum where anyone is free to post counterpoint to other people's views. You know how it works. Destroying Redfern's books may be a dramatic expression of opposition to their content, but it doesn't really help explain why.

Something more useful to do would be to keep the books, and go through some cases you have found to be erroneous or misleading. If you're objective about it, I'll probably help. I'd love to see more of that type of analysis on the forum. In fact, we'd probably make a good team, and you might be able to advise me as to how to better deal with these issues on the show, or even help find guests you think would be more to your liking.

In another post on the John Alexander thread, I just got criticized for invoking science. The member thought I was making a personal attack. I'm doing the best I can given the circumstances, but it seems no matter what I do, someone is going to feel like their perspective is being compromised. Personally, I'd love to have you on the show as a semi-regular panel-member to add your particular brand of balance.

 

[marduk]

I totally get you reasoning. None of that made any difference to me when I saw her lying on the floor fighting for life.

And I understand that as well. You have a kind heart and seem to always seek to find the good in everyone.

It’s what makes you a fantastic host and moderator. And human being.

 

[Randall]

And I understand that as well. You have a kind heart and seem to always seek to find the good in everyone.

It’s what makes you a fantastic host and moderator. And human being.

Thanks for that. I'm glad you said you understand it too ( despite the background situation ). You have never come across to me as being so hard-line that people's suffering is of no consequence ( whew - you had me worried there for a second ). That being said, I cannot always say I would feel the same way for everyone.

I remember a case in the USA where the parent of a daughter who had been unquestionably raped and murdered by the man on trial, shot the perpetrator right there in the courtroom, and I thought to myself "There's justice". The parent did do some short amount of time for avenging his daughter, as he probably should have, but I felt the perpetrator got what he deserved, despite me not being a proponent of capital punishment.

In the case of Ashley, as I said, no matter how misled she was, she believed she was doing it for the right reasons. She believed she was on the side of "light". This to me shows the extraordinary potential for good in her. After all, how many people are willing to go to such lengths to make a point they believe in? Not many. Most don't have the courage. To me, her death is a terrible waste. But maybe others can learn from it.

 

[marduk]

Thanks for that. I'm glad you said you understand it too ( despite the background situation ). You have never come across to me as being so hard-line that people's suffering is of no consequence ( whew - you had me worried there for a second ). That being said, I cannot always say I would feel the same way for everyone.

I remember a case in the USA where the parent of a daughter who had been unquestionably raped and murdered by the man on trial, shot the perpetrator right there in the courtroom, and I thought to myself "There's justice". The parent did do some short amount of time for avenging his daughter, as he probably should have, but I felt the perpetrator got what he deserved, despite me not being a proponent of capital punishment.

In the case of Ashley, as I said, no matter how misled she was, she believed she was doing it for the right reasons. She believed she was on the side of "light". This to me shows the extraordinary potential for good in her. After all, how many people are willing to go to such lengths to make a point they believe in? Not many. Most don't have the courage. To me, her death is a terrible waste. But maybe we can help others learn from it.

My point is that she knew what she was doing.

She was a vet that swore to uphold the constitution. And didn’t. She was in her own words racist. And she participated in a violent coup attempt trying to overthrow an election and kidnap/kill her countries elected leaders.

And when faced with police pointing a gun at her, telling her to stop while illegally in a federal building, she chose to storm in anyway.

If I did that I would also be dead. So would you or almost anyone else. She could have chosen to stop and live, and decided not to. Perhaps she thought her racial privilege was a shield, or that the police would have empathy for her when she showed none for them.

I’m not at all glad she’s dead. I would have preferred she stand trial, even in a broken justice system that we both have in the US and Canada.

But that officer had no choice. He had one job, and that was to protect the elected politicians. He was literally the last line of defence.

And now he has to live with killing someone, and probably in fear of fascists for the rest of his life.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I remember a case in the USA where the parent of a daughter who had been unquestionably raped and murdered by the man on trial, shot the perpetrator right there in the courtroom, and I thought to myself "There's justice". The parent did do some short amount of time for avenging his daughter, as he probably should have, but I felt the perpetrator got what he deserved, despite me not being a proponent of capital punishment.

It also reads like the plot of a number of episodes of the long-running NBC police procedural, "Law and Order: Special Victims Unit." Indeed, this past week's episode focused on a disabled veteran who kills a man suspected of raping the veteran's pre-teen daughter and others.

 

[marduk]

I totally get your reasoning. None of that made any difference to me when I saw her lying on the floor fighting for her life. I feel sorry for anyone who lacks any sense of empathy when bearing witness to it. To me it's just another thing wrong with the world, and I'm sorry if that bothers you if you have watched the clip and don't feel anything.

If we want to address your reasoning alone, she was only 35, and had much of her life ahead of her. In 10 years she may have had a complete turn-around and realized she had been unwittingly caught-up in a cause that was built on fiction, illusion, and and propaganda. Her core motivation was good, even if she didn't see she'd been pointed in the wrong direction, and that tremendous potential for good has now been killed.

Fundamentally, I look at Redfern's books the same way I look at any other. They are filed in a library type fashion for reference, not necessarily as statements of fact, or validation of any theory, but simply as books that put forth views that are among many in a much wider field of interest. When attempting to validate content, I do a cross reference with multiple independent sources.

More succinctly, I look at my library as a neutral repository where all content has potential value. I am therefore only "complicit" in exploring people's views, not necessarily in promoting them, and we also have the forum where anyone is free to post counterpoint to other people's views. You know how it works. Destroying Redfern's books may be a dramatic expression of opposition to their content, but it doesn't really help explain why.

Something more useful to do would be to keep the books, and go through some cases you have found to be erroneous or misleading. If you're objective about it, I'll probably help. I'd love to see more of that type of analysis on the forum. In fact, we'd probably make a good team, and you might be able to advise me as to how to better deal with these issues on the show, or even help find guests you think would be more to your liking.

In another post on the John Alexander thread, I just got criticized for invoking science. The member thought I was making a personal attack. I'm doing the best I can given the circumstances, but it seems no matter what I do, someone is going to feel like their perspective is being compromised. Personally, I'd love to have you on the show as a semi-regular panel-member to add your particular brand of balance.

I’m invoking a hard line.

No more conspiracy theories. No more lies. No more propaganda. No more alternative facts.

This field is literally rife with the exact same thinking that led to this. And I’m done with it.

Complicit is complicit. Facts are facts. Evidence or I’m calling it out. No more tin foil hat nonsense, and no more of my thinking or money is going towards promoting it.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

One of the falsehoods being used as a means to excuse the offenders is that the riots were actually caused by alleged left-wing offenders known as "Antifa." There is actually no organized movement of that name. It is largely a myth and a concept based on a 1930's anti-fascist movement. Law enforcement authorities — who are surely not rabid liberals — say that the offenders were largely right-wing extremist/white supremacist/anti-semitic types spurred on by Trump to engage in an insurrection attempt.

 

[marduk]

One of the falsehoods being used as a means to excuse the offenders is that the riots were actually caused by alleged left-wing offenders known as "Antifa." There is actually no organized movement of that name. It is largely a myth and a concept based on a 1930's anti-fascist movement. Law enforcement authorities — who are surely not rabid liberals — say that the offenders were largely right-wing extremist/white supremacist/anti-semitic types spurred on by Trump to engage in an insurrection attempt.

Antifa was literally made up. To invent an enemy. I suspect it was shortened to take out the word fascism so people wouldn’t connect being against antifa means you’re pro fascism.

That’s what the talk about antifa was about.

 

[Randall]

I’m invoking a hard line.

No more conspiracy theories.

Aw but they're fun.

No more lies. No more propaganda. No more alternative facts.

You're really ruining the party here.

This field is literally rife with the exact same thinking that led to this. And I’m done with it.

No! We need you!

Complicit is complicit.

I dunno. Maybe it's more implicit than complicit. But that takes more effort, so it's more likely some combination of the two. You wouldn't happen to have a Venn diagram handy, would you?

Facts are facts.

And Black is Black

Evidence or I’m calling it out.

I'd totally sign-up for that. I sort of already have, and can use all the help I can get

No more tin foil hat nonsense,

But I love my tin foil pyramid shaped hat, not only does it keep the EM rays out, it helps to sharpen my brain. Obviously I haven't been wearing enough lately ...

and no more of my thinking or money is going towards promoting it.

The situation here is that whether we would want to be or not, we are valuable as a marketing tool, and therefore since it's built into the role, from an objective business perspective, it needs to be recognized and integrated in such a way that the guests are treated in a fair-minded way. That means finding a way to feel ethical and responsible in a way that covers as many contingencies as possible.

So there's such a thing as being too hard-lined. But so long as you don't mind others putting in some constructive balance, you can push it to the max. Consider Professor Paul Kingsbury. We agreed that the full set of subject matter can be looked at objectively. Therefore engaging with it on that basis, covers the vast majority of contingencies where anyone would question whether or not the study of such subject matter is in any way unethical.

Right? This would make an excellent topic for the next round table. Man we have to get you on.

Black Is Back

 

[marduk]

Aw but they're fun.

You're really ruining the party here.

No! We need you!

I dunno. Maybe it's more implicit than complicit. But that takes more effort, so it's more likely some combination of the two. You wouldn't happen to have a Venn diagram handy, would you?

And Black is Black

I'd totally sign-up for that. I sort of already have, and can use all the help I can get

But I love my tin foil pyramid shaped hat, not only does it keep the EM rays out, it helps to sharpen my brain. Obviously I haven't been wearing enough lately ...



The situation here is that whether we would want to be or not, we are valuable as a marketing tool, and therefore since it's built into the role, from an objective business perspective, it needs to be recognized and integrated in such a way that the guests are treated in a fair-minded way. That means finding a way to feel ethical and responsible in a way that covers as many contingencies as possible.

So there's such a thing as being too hard-lined. But so long as you don't mind others putting in some constructive balance, you can push it to the max. Consider Professor Paul Kingsbury. We agreed that the full set of subject matter can be looked at objectively. Therefore engaging with it on that basis, covers the vast majority of contingencies where anyone would question whether or not the study of such subject matter is in any way unethical.

Right? This would make an excellent topic for the next round table. Man we have to get you on.

Black Is Back

I don’t at all mean that I’m stepping out of this field. What I mean is that this is a big lesson for us interested in it.

Aztec, Santilli, Mier, etc are all really no different than Qanon. Sure it’s all fun now, but I‘m sure some of Q’s stuff started as fun entertainment too. Some people are going to take it too far and live it as if it were reality. Look at Bennowitz.

Time to separate the signal from the noise.

I‘m good to go for a round table maybe late Jan?

 

[Randall]

I don’t at all mean that I’m stepping out of this field. What I mean is that this is a big lesson for us interested in it.

Aztec, Santilli, Mier, etc are all really no different than Qanon. Sure it’s all fun now, but I‘m sure some of Q’s stuff started as fun entertainment too. Some people are going to take it too far and live it as if it were reality. Look at Bennowitz.

Time to separate the signal from the noise.

I‘m good to go for a round table maybe late Jan?

I'm totally with you and was just trying to lighten things a little. We can do that because although there is a faction that might think even I'm too far "out there" I don't think I'm so far gone that I've lost touch with reality, and I would say the same for yourself. How it is that people go over the edge I'm not sure, and it would be interesting to see if we can figure out why and do something about it.

In that regard, it seems that one of the key factors in promoting a positive change is not to drive the opposition into a frame of mind where they dig themselves in further, and that's what I was getting at by being fair-minded, and using some emotional intelligence. My efforts in that regard have not been entirely successful, but I have made some progress.

The problem is that if we were to Venn diagram it, some people are completely in their own bubble, or what @Gene Steinberg calls being on Earth 2. I'm not sure how we can get through to them, or if we should even try. Maybe the best we can do is persuade some of those who are drifting a little too far into the twilight zone not to go so far that they get lost.

On participating in the show, I've got a couple of ideas I'll run past Gene. How would feel about being a relief cohost? Or perhaps doing a weekly short segment where you present your views on these issues? I can't promise anything, but we're kicking these sorts of ideas around. We had Puckett for a while, but he bailed. We're also looking at the Debrief guys.

One thing that would be really helpful is to have a guest coordinator, and if you were doing that, you'd literally have control of who would appear on the show, and you could choose those you feel are the best according to your criteria. It's easy to say we'd like to make a difference, but actually doing something about it is harder. So I understand if that's too big an ask, but the opportunity is there if you want it.