Interesting Roswell post on Frank Warren's blog

[Siani]

I've just come across an interesting post on Frank Warren's UFO Chronicles blog:

THE UFO CHRONICLES

It seems that one of the contributors to the USAF's infamous Roswell report has recanted. He now says an alien craft and bodies really did crash in the desert, and that the balloon/dummies story was concocted.

 

[Gareth]

Interesting.

While his 'belief' that ET really did crash out in the desert is just speculation, the fact that he admits the report was phony is very interesting indeed.

-edit, after reading the whole thing, he doesnt admit the report was phony, but confirms suspicions about its purpose.

Still, interesting article. I agree with Pauls comments on the UFOIcon blog too.

 

[Ron Collins]

Well, we knew the dummy thing was a load of horseshit anyway. But, it is nice that this guy has come forward to tell his side and clear the air. Too bad the national media won't pick up this tid bit.

 

[Trajanus]

While his 'belief' that ET really did crash out in the desert is just speculation

No, more than that.

the fact that he admits the report was phony is very interesting indeed.

-edit, after reading the whole thing, he doesnt admit the report was phony, but confirms suspicions about its purpose.

Which points to a coverup, and therefore, ETs.

 

[Trajanus]

Well, we knew the dummy thing was a load of horseshit anyway.

It still has advocates. There are people who say the witnesses confused sightings of 1950s dummies with a '47 event.:

 

[Paul Kimball]

It still has advocates. There are people who say the witnesses confused sightings of 1950s dummies with a '47 event.:

I know - it was always ridiculous that the USAF felt compelled to issue a supplementary explanation for a story told by liars like Glenn Dennis, with no independent corroboration whatsoever. They should have left it alone, to eventually collapse under its own weight - instead, they made it worse, so that now something like this comes along and conspiracists seize on it as "proof" of an ET cover-up. If it wasn't all so ridiculous, I would say that it serves the Air Force right.

 

[Gareth]

Which points to a coverup, and therefore, ETs.

What the fuck are you talking about? A cover up doesnt automatically mean it was ET's. The ET explanation is one of many.

 

[Siani]

What the fuck are you talking about? A cover up doesnt automatically mean it was ET's. The ET explanation is one of many.

That's the point so many conspiracy theorists fail to grasp. Governments and military personnel are ALWAYS hiding things from the general public. Usually, the things they hide are defence/security-related, things they don't want a hostile state getting hold of, e.g. the blueprints for a new weapon. Why so many people automatically assume a cover-up equals a cover-up of ET, beats me.

 

[Trajanus]

A cover up doesnt automatically mean it was ET's. The ET explanation is one of many.

Randle long ago exhaustively investigated all of the other possibilities, not just MOGUL--a Japanese balloon bomb, flying wing, Redfern's notion--nothing else works. Had a plausible nonET explanation been real, it would be a proven, documented fact; no secret technology that long ago is likely to remain under wraps now.

 

[Trajanus]

Usually, the things they hide are defence/security-related, things they don't want a hostile state getting hold of, e.g. the blueprints for a new weapon.

In most cases, yes, but evidently not this one.

Why so many people automatically assume a cover-up equals a cover-up of ET, beats me.

In this case, at least, there were reports of nonhuman bodies, and highly exotic material, which is hard to reconcile with any prosaic explanation..

 

[Siani]

In this case, at least, there were reports of nonhuman bodies, and highly exotic material, which is hard to reconcile with any prosaic explanation..

But how much can we rely on those reports? A report is only as reliable as the person making it. How much of the Roswell story has been accurately reported, and how much of it was spawned by conjecture and embellishment in the sixty plus years since the original incident? We simply don't know. I feel that too many people see Roswell as some kind of Holy Grail of ufology, and place too much faith in unproven claims.

No-one would be more delighted than me, if Roswell proved to be a downed alien craft. But the fact is, we just don't know for sure, despite the persuasive arguments of various researchers. Because the waters have been so muddied over the years, to me, a prima facie acceptance of Roswell as an alien crash, seems as specious as blindly accepting the existence of a deity, or believing that the end of the world is nigh, just because some cult leader says so.

Whatever the truth about the Roswell incident, I doubt we will ever know. It was so long ago, and too many people have pissed in the pond since, and poisoned the water. And let's just face it, whatever the truth, whether it was aliens, Project Mogul or Japanese prisoners of war, true believers from every denomination of the Roswell faith, will reject anything that doesn't fit their own personal credo.

 

[Trajanus]

But how much can we rely on those reports? A report is only as reliable as the person making it. How much of the Roswell story has been accurately reported, and how much of it was spawned by conjecture and embellishment in the sixty plus years since the original incident? We simply don't know.

To my knowledge, some witnesses have stood the test of time, even if others who spoke of bodies, like Dennis, have not.

I feel that too many people see Roswell as some kind of Holy Grail of ufology, and place too much faith in unproven claims.

Randle may have said it best. Even though he has been disappointed by witnesses who've turned out bad, and admits to much confusion, he's still convinced it's real.

But the fact is, we just don't know for sure, despite the persuasive arguments of various researchers. Because the waters have been so muddied over the years, to me, a prima facie acceptance of Roswell as an alien crash, seems as specious as blindly accepting the existence of a deity, or believing that the end of the world is nigh, just because some cult leader says so.

No. There's a difference between those who accept something on blind faith, and those who've found corroboration for certain testimony or witnesses. In fact, IMO, attempts to muddy the waters are yet another indication of the reality of this case. Why go through so much trouble to obfuscate in this way if there's no substance to it whatsoever? As Good noted, "it is important to emphasize that there would be no point in disinformation if there is nothing to cover up."

And let's just face it, whatever the truth, whether it was aliens, Project Mogul or Japanese prisoners of war, true believers from every denomination of the Roswell faith, will reject anything that doesn't fit their own personal credo.

By now, all nonET explanations have been disproven. The Japanese POW notion has collapsed, and researchers have disposed of MOGUL. Why do you think the crash dummies nonsense was conjured up?; the reports of bodies must have been considered credible enough to warrant some attempted explanation, and MOGUL can't account for them.

 

[David Biedny]

Lance,

While I might appreciate some of your posts and thoughts, you strike me as a profoundly unfriendly, insufferable asshole. You're not a skeptical thinker, more like a fucking jackoff.

dB

 

[David Biedny]

Just so folks know, I've decided to ban Lance Moody, I'm tired of his shit. While he might make some decent points, he comes off as an abusive dickhead, and I have little patience for this kind of noise. Sorry if anyone thinks I'm being a bit reactive, but I've reached my threshold with him.

dB

 

[Gareth]

Trajanus: just to be clear, I dont buy the USAF's explanation for what went down at Roswell. I actually do think something strange happened, and although some people think Marcel Jnr. is unreliable as a witness, from what Ive heard of him on the Paracast Im not one of those people.

But that doesnt automatically make it ET. There could be an explanation no one has ever thought of in their wildest dreams. Maybe Dan Burisch came back from the 12th dimension with 5 mini-me clones of himself then was drugged and hypnotized and fed a story about ET and J-rods.

Theres so many possibilities, with ET being one of them.

 

[Stillborn]

3. Most believers don't even know that Marcel himself said (twice) that the debris he is pictured with in the photos IS THE SAME STUFF HE PICKED UP. The stuff in the pictures includes bent up foil (supposedly it magically would never bend!) and sticks and rubber

I recall others saying this, but not either of the Marcels. Can anyone reference what he is talking about please?

 

[bsvalley]

I think we could all use a little brush up on the subject. I have no facts to add, accept that I have heard all of these claims a million times and depending on the researcher the info is all tweaked a little this way or that way depending on what they were told by whom on what ever day.

And really that is what Roswell will always be now.
A story to tell kids. There is no physical evidence, and with out it, and good reliable witnesses it is really a mute point.

Until that golden piece of evidence comes from what is left of area 51 at camp david or where ever. We are just not going to know.

I don't see the point in being rude to new members over it. They are just as excited over this field as anyone.

I have learned so much here in these forums. when I first joined I had an Idea of what I was looking for when I came here.
Since I have been here that Idea has blossomed in several different directions.
Instead of getting answers to questions I have ended up with so many more questions.
But just the same I do feel more educated on the subject (even though I still don't know anything).
So I would like to encourage everyone to be a little more patient with new members. We have all been there.

 

[Trajanus]

1. All of the direct "witnesses" dredged up for Roswell (those folks who claimed to have actually seen bodies or a crashed spacecraft) are now completely disavowed. And when I say completely, I mean the "researchers" like Randle,etc (not the skeptics) have all admitted that they were mislead by a PARADE of liars. There are NONE left standing.

Thanks to admin. for banning this guy; this is not true. Dennis, Kaufmann and a few others misled Randle but others, including some MPs, have seen bodies. It is true that the key first hand witnesses are deceased but the second hand witnesses, like Dugger, were NOT among the "parade of liars."

So then, Roswell is left with a sad little bag of debris that looks very suspiciously like balsa wood sticks, foil and rubber

Yeah right, that couldn't be cut or burned. Marcel was no cretin; he wouldn't have shown such trash to his son claiming it was from a saucer.

Most believers don't even know that Marcel himself said (twice) that the debris he is pictured with in the photos IS THE SAME STUFF HE PICKED UP. The stuff in the pictures includes bent up foil (supposedly it magically would never bend!)

No it just returned to its original shape.: Randle cited an instance where Marcel clarified matters; it was NOT what he originally picked up.

 

[Gen]

Randle long ago exhaustively investigated all of the other possibilities, not just MOGUL--a Japanese balloon bomb, flying wing, Redfern's notion--nothing else works. Had a plausible nonET explanation been real, it would be a proven, documented fact; no secret technology that long ago is likely to remain under wraps now.

You're right. 1940's secret technology is by definition obsolete by now. There could be no reason to hide it anymore. The government might still want to conceal covert actions against another country or some kind of massive human rights abuse against our own citizens, particularly if it's ongoing. Neither of these scenarios fits the evidence, particularly, but we don't know what we don't know.

Part of me suspects that the government enjoys the Roswell mystique at this point. Hence the lame "explanations." If the people believe that our secret government is so powerful that it's harboring alien bodies, that's a great free advertisement for the CIA.

 

[Trajanus]

Neither of these scenarios fits the evidence, particularly, but we don't know what we don't know.

Well, a good deal of what we've heard points to ET.

If the people believe that our secret government is so powerful that it's harboring alien bodies, that's a great free advertisement for the CIA.

But generally the government doesn't want us to believe in the ET interpretation.