Jacques Vallee C2C July 2014 Interview

[Soupie]

This is an EXTREMELY IMPORTANT POST from Mike Quoted just below...

Thank you VERY MUCH for posting this. EXCELLENT points!

I'm shocked a quick search on Pentacle (and "Stork") GOT NOTHING on this forum!!! What THE HELL is going on??? It just shows to me an unbelievable amount of BLIND FAITH lives in the world of ET-UFO's. This is truly a POWERFUL RELIGIOUS FORCE that has "taken over" many aspects of modern society -now worldwide too! It's worth TRILLIONS of dollars over the decades, when you consider all aspects of the Entertainment Industries AND the Military Industrial Complex.

Promoting ET-UFO's is worth Trillions of dollars... and WE ARE TO BELIEVE this is NOT... WHY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...we have this phenomena!

Seriously???

Why are you shouting?

The Pentacle document, if legit, is interesting but does not suggest UFO/UAP are fake i.e. man-made.

What the document suggests is an experiment in which a number of craft are purposefully yet secretly flown through an area (an area known to the experimenters to already have an unusual number of UAP sightings) that will be blanketed with survellience. The purpose will be to then analyse what people - both civilian and military - report seeing. The experimenters will know the ID of all the craft whereas no one else will.

Based on what people report seeing, the experimenters can then compare this to past and future UFO sightings.

The Pentacle document (linked to in this thread) does not suggest that the military creates fake UFO waves per se. It may have resulted in a number of UFO sightings, but the experiments couldn't be sure that it would.

I wonder what the results of the experiment were? I suggested a similar experiment myself in one of my first posts here, albeit on a much smaller, low tech scale haha! Place an ambiguous object somewhere at night, and then ask people what they saw afterward. Their imaginations would each arrive at a different conclusion.

There was a bit of the document obscured. I wonder what equipment was used in the experiment?

While I don't think the military knows as much about UAP as some believe, they do know where their most sensitive nuclear and otherwise technology is at given moment. I'd be extremely curious to know (a la Hastings) if the military has found a pattern between the locations of exotic technology and UAP activity. This is data the military must have, pos or neg.

 

[mike_thoth]

The Pentacle memo has been authenticated but I mentioned it in no way to claim that the UaP are fake or man made. On the contrary, the document when read carefully reveals some startling implications.

Even in the early 50's & maybe before, someone had recognised the reality of a phenomena that was mysterious & of great importance.

Someone had ordered the review of what maybe thousands of reports, getting them analysed in depth. What was revealed was a general lack of good solid, scientific data. They needed to study the real phenomena but lacked key data & intelligence, so a plan was conceived, a brilliant plan to enter teams into active UaP spots & obtain complete control of the area. Closely monitor the weather, plane routes, have strategically located observational stations & sensing equipment, cameras etc. so the idea was to try & obtain excellent data to help study the real phenomena.

What concerned me when reading this was the apparent power the organisers had & the foresight to come up with such a plan. The hoaxing side of it is however the most interesting. They were to create fake incidents but not the teams in the active area may not have been told. This would be excellent training because what they needed to do is understand the effects & physical manifestations of the real phenomena. To know what these were they needed to work out the differences between what was a real UaP event & a staged, hoaxed or natural event.

Now Jacques Vallee has always recognised the need to strip away the unknowns from the knowns that get reported. Using a computer program to analyse thousands of reports against a database which contained multiple data points. That way the genuine cases could then be triaged & given priority.

This is the problem Pentacle describes, getting good, valuable data sets.

In his fictional work Fastwalker, it is easier for Vallee to describe how such an investigation would proceed, what goals would be set & how to achieve them. Suffice it to say that the group conducting these investigations were more interested in gaining power rather than actually solving the problem.

I'm in ore of this phenomena.


Michael

 

[DissectionStalker]

What concerned me when reading this was the apparent power the organisers had & the foresight to come up with such a plan. The hoaxing side of it is however the most interesting. They were to create fake incidents but not the teams in the active area may not have been told. This would be excellent training because what they needed to do is understand the effects & physical manifestations of the real phenomena. To know what these were they needed to work out the differences between what was a real UaP event & a staged, hoaxed or natural event.

[...]

This is the problem Pentacle describes, getting good, valuable data sets.

In his fictional work Fastwalker, it is easier for Vallee to describe how such an investigation would proceed, what goals would be set & how to achieve them. Suffice it to say that the group conducting these investigations were more interested in gaining power rather than actually solving the problem.

What this PROVES is the Human interest to "capitalize" on the ET-UFO phenomena, whether or not these exist as real ET-UFO's or not! When the Military or Spook Agencies get involved, then it is PROVEN these experiments are often taken to extremes -including abusive Human experiments! No rational Human would approve of such experimentation, but these "spook freaks" always find a way to justify it and do it. Playing God and Playing Warfare ...it's just "in the cards" with the kinds of "games" the "spook freaks" will REALLY DO.

With all the research and studying I have done I am now convinced the 1977 Operation Saucer at Colares Brazil was DEFINITELY a HUMAN BLACK OPS to test Human reactions to a simulated ET-UFO attack. It has all the markings of PSYOPS Warfare done as a simulation for a reasonable limited time span. It was also done to test some microwave (or similar directed energy) weapons combined with bright lights that were under development. Disorientation weapons were also used.

The only way to get away with such abusive tests was to do it in a very remote area with relatively naive village life people that were more superstitious, and the access was easily gained to the isolated area directly from the sea. THE COVER for the Human Sicko Black Ops was to blame ET. Btw, Close Encounters of the Third Kind was released that same year in November 1977, which only goes to show just how well the ET-UFO themes play with Humans at that time. We all know this was the all time greatest movie in this type of ET-UFO movie.

I pulled-up a satellite image of that area, and it also had a very low population density back in '77. I'm now 99% convinced Humans were doing this. It's a perfect "testing grounds" for some Naval Operation to get access to the area. I wish I could be convinced otherwise, because I think the USA was part of this operation. Only some very top Brazilian military or "covert group" would be cooperating to do this. I don't think the Colonel would have even known. It is very suspicious that he killed himself not long after his interview. It stinks.

I think Vallee knows a bit more about this too! He has been to Brazil at least three times.

I couldn't believe it, when I read he put the Pentacle letter in the picture frame to hide it underneath a photo for Hynek. Man, that IS some serious paranoia, so he thinks he really must be this cautious too! He is definitely spooked by the Human spooks.

Here is some anonymous [just for privacy reasons] information given to me about Operacao Prato:

During WWII the US had bases in Brazil. One was in Amapa and very close to Colares region. It was supposed to be deactivated but....

Looking for Operacao Prato I came across this guy, Alberto Francisco do Carmo

He is one of those classic ufologists that would go and do field research. He has a sharp mind. In this old interview he said he is writing a book on Operacao Prato, but it seems he never did. UFOVIA - entrevista especial: UBIRATAN PINON

There are a few youtube videos with him.

Some of his ideas are:

1. As we have ETs, we also have TTs. TT= trouxa terrestre, or terrestrial fool. Those are the people that listen to ETs and do what they want, or spread their : "teachings."
   
2. Whoever ETs are, it looks like they are testing humans to see how easy it is to get us into submission. I myself think that is not all, because all we have to do is look at religions. Humans love to be in submission to whatever: religion, media, etc. ETs didn't have to waste their time on that.
3. He hates ufologists groups because there is usually one authoritarian member who becomes the "father knows best", and because they start talking about science, such as quantum physics when they barely know how to write a scientific paper.

 

[mike_thoth]

The document does not prove anything, although it does imply several things. I think Vallee has been to Brazil several times as your say, the Colares "attacks" are incredibly odd but may be psychological tests, however there would be a better way to do it in my own estimation. Each culture even now, views the phenomena differently, so what a US experiment would need to travel to Brazil for is unclear, given the abundance of human diversity in the US mainland.

After reading Messengers of Deception, I think it was clear Vallee was well aware of this human element and he expands on it greatly in his fictional work. It is sometimes liberating for an author to explore ideas in fiction where he is safe from the kind of criticism that would have been levelled at him on non fiction titles.

You can read the Pentacle memo in a few ways, either that it proves UFOs are a man made phenomena (I don't see it this way given the growing database of pre 1870 cases that appear almost identical to the phenomena's later incarnations) or you can read it as a dual problem, in that the whole project was setup to identify ways of gaining real proper scientific measurements of the phenomena - If Various military and intelligence analysts saw the importance of this whole phenomena then they would have tried their best to get access to such data. After hearing Vallee's recent interview regarding the scientists in that CNES meeting were looking to move forward, to test hypothesis, looking at the implications of Pentacle, they may have had a 60 year head start on us.

When reading Vallee's diary publications I did at times feel frustrated at the lack of urgency and the lack of courage In exposing the likes of Hynek who was dragging his feet, at Vallee's game with the Pentacle memo itself. I often think that had James McDonald been given the document things may have changed.

I also do not like affiliations with any of these official groups like Mufon. I tend to not even post of forums as there is often too much shouting & arguing, but felt I would make an exception for Pentacle.

 

[Randall]

Sorry this took so long, but other mundane things like yard and house work have taken precedence lately.

Don't forget, he bases this [ his preference for the EDH ] on truly long-term follow-up with people that have given him their personal accounts with encountering UFO's or "Aliens". And, he combines that experience with historical accounts predating 1880. This is one-way I think he uses to eliminate all the Military noise and PSYOPS and Hoaxing and Hollywood/TV, etc.

I own copies of all Vallée's books, have seen videos with him being interviewed, read magazine articles that focus on him, and more. So I've reviewed his reasoning in some detail.

I don't think he excludes ET's UFO's per se, but he expects "the control system" to be inter/multi-dimensional by being both mental and material phenomena that is of a "new physics" too -not presently understood. I mean, also, you don't expect ET's UFO's are getting here by known physics are you?

In the wording above we're seeing the word "dimensional" used as a convenience term to donate two different contexts of reality rather than some so-called higher dimension from which UFOs might enter or exit our physical objective reality. These different interpretations of the word "dimension" tend to get mushed around in discussions to suit whatever the user is talking about at the time, and this causes confusion around the concept of the EDH and dimensions in general. IMO it would be better to leave out the word "dimensions" and simply use the terms that apply, e.g. "...he expects "the control system" to be both mental and material."

It's also common to see far-out theories described using scientific buzz-words like "new physics" or "quantum" in order to impart an air of legitimacy by taking advantage of the average person's lack of comprehension for the real science. It seems to me that this is being done in an attempt to level the playing field. After all, if what is being said is incomprehensible but sounds sciency, we don't know that it's not possible, and therefore maybe it could be true. However in my experience, it turns out that with some investigation, extraordinary claims that rely on that argument have little or no substance and amount to nothing more than new-age or "quantum woo".

Do I expect that UFOs are getting here by known physics? I think UFOs ( alien craft ) are getting here using unknown engineering, not unknown physics. Interstellar travel is entirely plausible and in my analysis the most reasonable explanation.

Ufology: Could you give us the link(s) to your "debunking" of Vallee's ideas. It would be very interesting to understand your thinking about this. Thanks.

To be clear, I don't debunk Vallée's ideas in general. I focus specifically on the hypothesis that UFOs can exist independently in some so-called higher or alternate spatial dimension, move in and out of that dimension, and in doing so cross into or exit ours at will. There are several posts on the forum in which I've briefly explained why such interdimensional travel is impossible, but for the sake of convenience, here's the link to my article on the USI website: EDH

Again, thanks for your response and feel free to ask any questions or pose any counterpoint you feel is relevant .

 

[Constance]

What this PROVES is the Human interest to "capitalize" on the ET-UFO phenomena, whether or not these exist as real ET-UFO's or not! When the Military or Spook Agencies get involved, then it is PROVEN these experiments are often taken to extremes -including abusive Human experiments! No rational Human would approve of such experimentation, but these "spook freaks" always find a way to justify it and do it. Playing God and Playing Warfare ...it's just "in the cards" with the kinds of "games" the "spook freaks" will REALLY DO.

With all the research and studying I have done I am now convinced the 1977 Operation Saucer at Colares Brazil was DEFINITELY a HUMAN BLACK OPS to test Human reactions to a simulated ET-UFO attack. It has all the markings of PSYOPS Warfare done as a simulation for a reasonable limited time span. It was also done to test some microwave (or similar directed energy) weapons combined with bright lights that were under development. Disorientation weapons were also used.

I think that's an excellent theory re Colares, and it's consistent with the indication in the Pentacle Memo that the PTB insiders in ATIC and CIA and at Battelle were fully capable of contemplating and carrying out such manipulations in other people's countries and potentially in our own. It's possible that such operations were also carried out in some places here. But imo this cannot reasonably be taken to support the theory that all ufo sightings, waves, events, etc., in the US and elsewhere over the last 65 years have been illusions perpetrated by the PTB to generate a 'myth' to be used to control human perceptions for some future undefined purpose.

The only way to get away with such abusive tests was to do it in a very remote area with relatively naive village life people that were more superstitious, and the access was easily gained to the isolated area directly from the sea. THE COVER for the Human Sicko Black Ops was to blame ET.

I think it's more complicated than that, but not much more. What was the purpose of the terror visited on Colares? Anyone could predict that it would generate terror -- a panic reaction to 'ufos'. The operatives who carried out that campaign of terror intended to generate profound fear of ufos, in Brazil and beyond as news of it spread. That would be one way of discouraging rational and open-minded interest in ufos that was widespread in the US and elsewhere (sponsored by large citizen research groups such as NICAP) at the time, an effort to frighten people away from the subject and thus to discourage many from pursuing the subject further. How was ET a 'cover' for what was done in Colares when the purpose of that terror campaign was to present a negative and forbidding representation of ostensible ET motivations? I see it as an additional manipulation technique alongside other forms of disinformation intended to discredit decades of serious ufo research. In short, if ridiculing ufos and those who report them {recommendations of the Robertson Panel in 1953} hadn't suppressed interest in the phenomena, perhaps terrorizing people would help discourage rational discussion of the phenomena at a time when that discussion was at its broadest level in the US.

Re your point that "the only way to get away with such abusive tests was to do it in a very remote area with relatively naive village life people," I agree. The US military and alphabet agencies have a long and sordid history of exploitation of human subjects for other purposes as well, especially in South America.

I pulled-up a satellite image of that area, and it also had a very low population density back in '77. I'm now 99% convinced Humans were doing this. It's a perfect "testing grounds" for some Naval Operation to get access to the area. I wish I could be convinced otherwise, because I think the USA was part of this operation. Only some very top Brazilian military or "covert group" would be cooperating to do this. I don't think the Colonel would have even known. It is very suspicious that he killed himself not long after his interview. It stinks.

Agreed. I did not know about the Colonel who committed suicide after the Colares siege. An American or a Brazilian? Would like to hear more about this.

I think Vallee knows a bit more about this too! He has been to Brazil at least three times.

There are two reasons why I grow increasingly disappointed in Vallee's contributions to ufology. First is the amount of information he undoubtedly has and chooses to hold back, keep secret -- information that should be shared with other researchers and even the public at this point in time. The second reason I distrust him is his flight from the US to France when he became aware of the Pentacle Memo. I agree with your statement here:

I couldn't believe it, when I read he put the Pentacle letter in the picture frame to hide it underneath a photo for Hynek. Man, that IS some serious paranoia, so he thinks he really must be this cautious too! He is definitely spooked by the Human spooks.

Compared with other ufo researchers in this country and in France, Vallee seems to have been genuinely cowardly in my opinion. I've long thought that in concentrating on his 'interdimensional' and psychosocial theories, he's made himself 'safe' in the eyes of the 'national security' agencies and agents long manipulating public perceptions of the ufo subject and problem. I'd hoped he did this to place himself in a position where, considered 'safe', he might acquire information from insiders. If so, he's absorbed it like a sponge without sharing it with the rest of us. It's too bad. I've long expected (and seen) better from the French, for example in the COMETA Report, whose insider and expert authors make no bones about the inexcusable failure of the US government to disclose at least some of what it knows about ufos. The most useful work I've seen published by Vallee is in the paper he co-wrote with Eric Davis, discussed above or elsewhere in this forum. On the other hand, Vallee's heavy-handed rejection of the ETH -- and of ufological researchers who have adopted it as, for the time being, the "best available hypothesis" -- continues there and is short-sighted in my view because the "new models of physical reality" theorized in that paper do not exclude the ETH, there being no demonstrated reason why highly advanced et species could not also generate the phenomena discussed in that paper.

 

[DissectionStalker]

I did not know about the Colonel who committed suicide after the Colares siege. An American or a Brazilian? Would like to hear more about this.

I will reply to more of your posts later, but the Colonel I am referring to was a Captain in the Brazilian Air Force Intelligence in 1977. He was assigned to lead a large group of military observers, maybe 20-30 men in number.

What is amazing is this Brazilian Military group NEVER attacked or tried "to protect" the Colares people from the ET-UFO's. What is even more fascinating is their orders were to 'document only' what was happening using photography and films. Also, they tried to convince the local doctor that refused to leave to use "cover stories" to calm the people and hide some things she knew.

Operation Saucer 1977 - Uyrangê Hollanda <-- this is the Colonel that killed himself -very controversial because many believed he was murdered [not long after] for doing an interview about the incidents in 1977.

I have the Colonel's interview I could upload for you, because it was removed from Youtube. Just PM me if you want it.

Btw, watch this quick, below, because it will likely be pulled from youtube soon! I thought this show was very good compared to most UFO BS on TV.

 

[Soupie]

Do I expect that UFOs are getting here by known physics? I think UFOs ( alien craft ) are getting here using unknown engineering, not unknown physics. Interstellar travel is entirely plausible and in my analysis the most reasonable explanation.

Nasa validates 'impossible' space drive (Wired UK)

Nasa is a major player in space science, so when a team from the agency this week presents evidence that "impossible" microwave thrusters seem to work, something strange is definitely going on. Either the results are completely wrong, or Nasa has confirmed a major breakthrough in space propulsion. ...

"Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion device, is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon and therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma."

This last line implies that the drive may work by pushing against the ghostly cloud of particles and anti-particles that are constantly popping into being and disappearing again in empty space. But the Nasa team has avoided trying to explain its results in favour of simply reporting what it found: "This paper will not address the physics of the quantum vacuum plasma thruster, but instead will describe the test integration, test operations, and the results obtained from the test campaign." ...

I'm of the opinion that our understanding of (physical) reality is quite primitive. Much of what we currently consider paranormal is quite normal, I'm sure. (See my signature.)

 

[Randall]

I'm of the opinion that our understanding of (physical) reality is quite primitive. Much of what we currently consider paranormal is quite normal, I'm sure. (See my signature.)

To clarify my position on the term "unknown physics", I chose to avoid that characterization because I think it's somewhat misleading. Physics uses the scientific method to focus on the properties of the natural world. It is a process, which is a distinctly different concept from the phenomena that it studies. So as long as there are physicists, physics ( as a discipline ) will always be known. What we might consider unknown, and what @DissectionStalker was alluding to are yet to be discovered phenomena and/or never before invented tools ( e.g. interstellar craft or the engine in the article you mention in your post ).

That engine isn't being studied with "unknown physics", it's being studied with known physics. For example, they suspended the engine on a low-thrust torsion pendulum in order to verify that a force associated with the engine is being produced. Not knowing how that force is being produced doesn't make the physics unknown, it makes the phenomenon unexplained, and there are plenty of unexplained phenomena in physics. Take the four fundamental forces of nature for example. Physicists have identified their properties and most ( but not all ) of their associated particles, but the underlying phenomena remains unexplained. So physicists simply accept that they exist and work with them based on their properties.

On the topic of understanding physical reality, IMO that depends on what is meant by "understanding" and "primitive". If we're talking about knowing all the various ways matter can be combined in order to produce objects never before invented, then I'd have to agree that we have a lot more inventing to do, and the inventions we might come up a hundred years from now may make our present day inventions seem as primitive as those in the Bronze Age. But if we're talking about identifying the various kinds of physical matter in our universe and their properties, I think we probably know more than we don't. I also think that within our universe there is a technological ceiling. Matter can only be combined in so many ways to create so many types of things, and all things have limitations based on the properties of the material they're made of.

 

[DissectionStalker]

The document does not prove anything, although it does imply several things.

I'm just trying to clarify, when I used the word "prove". Pentacle "proves" documented interest with actionable descriptions implying intention too. What this PROVES is the Human interest "to capitalize" on the ET-UFO phenomena, whether or not these exist as real ET-UFO's or not!

I think Vallee has been to Brazil several times as your say, the Colares "attacks" are incredibly odd but may be psychological tests, however there would be a better way to do it in my own estimation. Each culture even now, views the phenomena differently, so what a US experiment would need to travel to Brazil for is unclear, given the abundance of human diversity in the US mainland.

How would there be a better way? There is NO WAY this could be done anywhere in the USA in 1977 with the existing culture, media coverage, recent government corruption, and the most famous ET-UFO movie was released too -CEotTK. Just Google Orson Welles and Mars to further understand what you're suggesting is impossible.

You can read the Pentacle memo in a few ways, either that it proves UFOs are a man made phenomena (I don't see it this way given the growing database of pre 1870 cases that appear almost identical to the phenomena's later incarnations) or you can read it as a dual problem, in that the whole project was setup to identify ways of gaining real proper scientific measurements of the phenomena[...]

It does not have to prove that UFO's are a man made phenomena or not, because man is using UFO's in various PROVEN PSYOPS of various kinds. We KNOW that happens, but we just don't know the exact nature of how the UFO is being used -real or not. I think Operation Saucer is a Covert PSYOPS that is man made, so Humans are using REAL aerial craft at night to mimic the idea of UFO's and then test Human reactions to the planned PSYOPS. Brazil was a dictatorship, and there were threats of communist guerrillas. The UFO's ALWAYS came in from the ocean side. All the military did was observe and document, and no attempt was used to protect anyone.

I tend to not even post of forums as there is often too much shouting & arguing, but felt I would make an exception for Pentacle.

Please continue to make exceptions, because you present very good ideas and thoughtful presentation. Thank you.

Also, you seem very well read regarding Vallee's writings, so you are a valuable asset to have posting on subjects at least relating to Vallee. Have you read much about the pre-1870 sightings? Anything noteworthy to know about some specific accounts? Thanks.

 

[Constance]

You can read the Pentacle memo in a few ways, either that it proves UFOs are a man made phenomena . . .

I don't see how the memo can be read to support that conclusion. Can you expand on that possibility?

. . .or you can read it as a dual problem, in that the whole project was setup to identify ways of gaining real proper scientific measurements of the phenomena - If Various military and intelligence analysts saw the importance of this whole phenomena then they would have tried their best to get access to such data.

Indeed they were trying their best to gather data about the ufos. What the memo shows, however, is that the inner circle at Battelle wanted to control the data that would be shared with the five scientists on the Robertson Panel. And they had some very strong data by that time since the most daunting cases were being siphoned off from Blue Book and studied by H.C. Cross and other mystery men at Battelle. Instead of presenting it to the Robertson Panel, however, Cross et al wanted to delay the panel's meeting while they ran an experiment in a current ufo hotspot complicated with the injection of aerial phenomena under their own control and to evaluate whether people on the ground could tell the difference. This is advancing the scientific investigation of the ufo phenomenon? How? Pentacle's memo was an attempt to manipulate the thinking of the five scientists (who, as it turned out in fact, spent a total of around 12-15 hours looking at cases -- which ones?*) before making their recommendations that ridicule of those reporting ufos and press/media manipulation concerning the subject were the best ways to deal with the ufo problem.

*As I recall reading, Hynek said after witnessing the Robertson Panel meeting that the best cases he knew about were not presented to the panel members.

 

[Burnt State]

You can read the Pentacle memo in a few ways, either that it proves UFOs are a man made phenomena (I don't see it this way given the growing database of pre 1870 cases that appear almost identical to the phenomena's later incarnations) or you can read it as a dual problem, in that the whole project was setup to identify ways of gaining real proper scientific measurements of the phenomena - If Various military and intelligence analysts saw the importance of this whole phenomena then they would have tried their best to get access to such data. After hearing Vallee's recent interview regarding the scientists in that CNES meeting were looking to move forward, to test hypothesis, looking at the implications of Pentacle, they may have had a 60 year head start on us.

When reading Vallee's diary publications I did at times feel frustrated at the lack of urgency and the lack of courage In exposing the likes of Hynek who was dragging his feet, at Vallee's game with the Pentacle memo itself. I often think that had James McDonald been given the document things may have changed.

What's not certain from the memo is whether or not the proposed experiment was ever carried out, but you could make an argument that incidents like The Phoenix Lights demonstrate that these are just standard operating procedures. The way I read it is wheels within wheels as always: the public face of investigating the phenomenon hides the control system created behind these various investigatory panels to both manage & understand the phenomenon. On one hand there is a suggestion that the UFO problem is truly a problem for the power controllers and that they know very little about the "flying saucer". This proposal is a strategy to serve two ends: improve the means by which you can evaluate witness reports & determine which ones are worth looking at in the future vs. which might be hoaxes and to be able to assure the public that control is well in hand.

What I see in the memo is an admission of a kind of cluelessness about what's going on up in the sky and that those studying it from behind the magician's curtain are grasping at straws. Hynek had difficulty in standing up to those big boys, but was a transitional figure himself, as he was starting to get consumed by what was a real mystery while walking the fine line of getting to swim in the deep end with the sharks. Vallée may have had his suspicions confirmed that manipulation of the phenomenon was a core feature of the American approach, and that must have been quite disillusioning for him. When you find out about the existence of the puppeteer it's hard to remain a puppet on the stage, so back to France he goes. Were those all wasted years he asks himself?

McDonald was treated with toal disdain because of his relentless scientific approach and inability to compromise his own values. That inability to work with the powers that be, the way Vallée and Hynek did, seeing value being on the inside track, would have left James E. as both outsider and enemy of the state. I don't think he would have changed much as he was already being hemmed in on multiple fronts due to his lone wolf approach.

 

[mike_thoth]

I think you have it bang on there Burnt State on several of your points. I read the document as you do. Although there is no evidence to suggest that they have carried this out, I do think there is evidence that it has happened, certainly in Europe, South America and the states. There seems to be a realisation that they have no useful data on what these things zipping about the sky actually are, and I think stopping the Robertson panel seeing the best data is a response to the ignorance in which they find themselves. I also like your perspective on Vallee & what must have been a disillusioning experience for him, but reading his diaries, I do feel he could have had more courage, Hynek even more so. What you have here were two men, without a real fighting instinct, and then on the other hand, you have a colossus in Jim McDonald. Vallee in his diary that McDonald was arrogant, like a bull in a china shop, later on he says "this man is afraid of nothing".

McDonald had courage to go into the lions den with a shotgun, where as less brave men, like Hynek tended to be more cautious. If they had backed McDonald and rallied around him the dam may have collapsed and proper investigation may have started. That's a bloody good read now, Firestorm.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Thanks Mike! Firestorm:

Amazon From Commander Adama (aka Battlestar Galactica -I loved it!)

Ann Druffel's "Firestorm" is a serious-minded, scholarly, and well-written biography of one of the most important figures in UFO history: Dr. James McDonald. McDonald (1920-1971), was an atmospheric physicist at the University of Arizona, and was thus perfectly qualified to lead a scientific study of the UFO phenomenon. In the 1950's McDonald had his own UFO sighting, and this experience led him to begin a private, quiet investigation of UFOs that would last for many years. In the early-to-mid 1960's McDonald - who had a "top-secret" government clearance - gained access to the files of Project Blue Book, the US Air Force's official research group assigned to investigate UFO reports. And what he found appalled him: not only was Blue Book's staff scientifically unqualified to investigate UFO's, but the Air Force's hard-line debunking policy had led Blue Book's staff to simply make up many of their "explanations" for UFO incidents out of thin air, without even a brief investigation or interviews with the eyewitnesses. By the late 1960's McDonald had investigated hundreds of UFO cases - including many from the 1940's and 1950's which the Air Force had claimed to have "solved" - and offered convincing evidence that the cases were still "unsolved". He also used his scientific expertise to critique the beliefs of UFO debunkers, such as Dr. Donald Menzel, a Harvard University astronomer and fierce UFO critic. Unlike McDonald, Menzel refused to interview UFO witnesses (since in his view UFOs couldn't possibly exist, any UFO witness was obviously mistaken in their observation and therefore interviewing them was a waste of time). Menzel's "armchair investigations" of UFO cases were often revealed by McDonald to be unscientific and illogical. Menzel, who was never able to specifically rebut McDonald's scientific and forceful criticisms of his UFO "explanations", resorted to personal attacks on McDonald, calling him a "pseudoscientist" and a crank. As Druffel notes, this would become a pattern with McDonald's critics - they would often ignore McDonald's thoroughly-investigated, detailed studies of UFO cases - and would instead concentrate upon attacking him personally.

By 1966 McDonald was convinced that the UFO mystery was real and that it posed a major challenge to science, and so he devoted himself full-time to investigating the phenomenon and to convincing the mainstream scientific community of his beliefs. He quickly emerged as a leading spokesman for "Ufology" - the scientific study of the UFO phenomenon. In effect, McDonald mounted a one-man crusade to convince his fellow scientists, and the general public, that UFOs were serious business and a subject worthy of scientific study. When the US government created the "Condon Committee" in the late 1960's to study the UFO phenomenon and see if a final explanation could be found, McDonald eagerly offered his services to the committee. Given his extensive research into the subject and his impeccable scientific credentials, McDonald was a logical choice to serve on the Condon Committee, but he was not chosen as a committee member. The reason for this snub soon became clear, as the Committee's two leaders, Dr. Edward Condon and Dr. Robert Low, were revealed to be hard-line UFO debunkers, and both Condon and Low were determined to have the Committee come to an anti-UFO conclusion, no matter what the Committee's research revealed. McDonald (along with other prominent Ufologists) made fierce criticisms of the Committee's leadership and bias, but to no avail. The "Condon Report", published in 1969, couldn't find explanations for nearly one-third of the cases it examined, but Dr. Condon in his introduction to the Report flatly stated that UFOs didn't exist and that "serious science" had nothing to gain from studying the subject. Undaunted, McDonald wrote a number of detailed and thoughtful criticisms of the Condon Report, including his classic essay "Science in Default", which remains a powerful argument for objectively and thoroughly investigating UFO incidents.

However, the "Condon Report" marked the beginning of the end for McDonald. His strong and forceful advocacy of UFOs as a serious subject worthy of scientific attention had earned him many critics in the scientific community, most of whom wanted only to ignore UFO cases and disliked having their "intellectual laziness" on the subject revealed by McDonald. Many of McDonald's scientific colleagues began to avoid him, and he was soon isolated from the mainstream scientific community. Even worse, McDonald ran afoul of Philip Klass, the editor of "Aviation Week" magazine and an even more vociferous UFO critic than Menzel. When McDonald shredded one of Klass's pet theories for UFO sightings in print - Klass argued that many UFOs were "plasma balls" caused by power lines, a theory which McDonald showed to have no basis in science - Klass went after McDonald personally in a brazen attempt to destroy his reputation. It was an unfair battle, for while McDonald limited himself to critiquing Klass's theories and "explanations" for UFO cases, Klass ignored McDonald's scientific arguments and concentrated on personal smears and innuendo - Klass even tried unsuccessfully to have McDonald's top-secret government clearance revoked so he could no longer examine UFO reports, and he privately tried to convince the University of Arizona to revoke McDonald's academic tenure and even fire him. By 1970 McDonald's life was falling apart, partly from his blackballing by other scientists, partly from the vicious personal attacks by Klass, and partly from the fact that his crusade had left little time for his family, and his wife wanted a divorce.

In 1971 came the final blow. McDonald was called to testify before a congressional committee about the supersonic transport (SST) project, an airplane that McDonald had studied and was convinced would harm the atmosphere. Although the subject had nothing to do with UFOs, and McDonald was not speaking on that topic, a sleazy New England Congressman who wanted the SST to be built (because it would bring jobs to the voters in his district) tried to discredit McDonald's criticisms of the SST by turning the hearing to a "discussion" of McDonald's belief in "little green men". This tactic caught McDonald completely by surprise, and although he tried to defend his UFO studies and pointed out that UFOs and the SST had nothing to do with each other, the Congressman repeatedly ridiculed McDonald and implied that anyone who "believed" in UFOs couldn't be trusted with their SST testimony. By the end of the hearing open laughter and ridicule of McDonald could be heard in the congressional chamber. In fact, McDonald's criticisms of the SST were supported by many other scientists and the project was eventually dropped. However, McDonald was personally devastated and humiliated by this totally unfair attack, and later in 1971 he walked into the Arizona desert and shot himself. His death was devastating to Ufology, as it lost one of its greatest leaders and spokesmen. As Druffel notes, many of his investigations and writings (especially his brilliant paper "Science in Default") remain the best of their kind in the study of UFOs, and have never been adequately rebutted by his critics.

This is a superb, "traditional" biography, and should be read by anyone with even a passing interest in the UFO phenomenon. Unfortunately, it will probably never receive the attention it deserves, and in many ways "Firestorm" illustrates the reasons why Ufology has remained a fringe movement since McDonald's death. The book was written by Ann Druffel, and while she has done an excellent job with this biography, she has also published a number of "New Age" books of dubious merit. One of her books is entitled "How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abductions", a title which (fairly or not) has received plenty of ridicule. Also, this book is published not by a traditional printing house, but by a very small "New Age" firm - which will unfortunately greatly limit its sales and ability to publicize McDonald's brilliant but tragic career. In short, "Firestorm" is a superb biography of a very brave, talented, and tragic figure - not only in Ufology but also in American science. It's definitely worth reading, but it's also a shame that so few people will be able to read it, and that the present-day disciples of Menzel and Klass will be able to use Ms. Druffel's previous books to try and discredit this one. Even so, "Firestorm" is highly recommended. Buy it!