James Carrion resurfaces at C.U.T.

[Michael Allen]

I disagree in part.

There is absolutely no question that governments, particularly the United States government, has used the UFO phenomenon as a smokescreen for its own secret projects, and for other purposes related to intelligence gathering. Anyone who thinks otherwise is hopelessly naive, and doesn't have a grasp on the history of the subject. More than a few cases in Hall's work are most likely explainable as one or the other.

However, to say that the "GH" is the only explanation is patently absurd.

Paul

There are several problems with this statement.

(1) You have to distinguish between "usage" meaning (a) the government employing actual craft to fool the public from (b) the use of documentation, misinformation, and hoaxed artifacts , etc. and (c) the employment of individuals who pretend to experience contact with the said phenomenon.

In the former case, the statement "no question..." does not apply, as this would imply you have proof that a UFO was in fact an IFO. Ideally the scientific ufologists would weed out these special IFO cases from the start. In a less ideal situation, you have the government failing to convince everyone along their perlocutionary intentions.

So, in short., if you have incontrovertible evidence that the U.S. government utilized UFO phenomenon, then you effectively push (by that same evidence) the phenomenon out of the unidentified pool.


As for (b) and (c) --> these situations are irrelevant to the "governmental hypothesis" which states that the government is behind the creation of the actual phenomenon.

In short we probably should make these (and perhaps other) clarifications/distinctions.

(The hopelessly naive are usually created by the hopelessly vague--the devilish details might remove some of this doubt.)

So based on these observations and clarifications, I claim that there IS a question concerning the government employment of the ufo phenomenon (in any sense enumerated above). If you accept the affirmative answer as given, then certainly you'll need to call into question the possible employment of fake ufo related documents to spoil ETH. And...I think that would be case (b) mentioned above, if I am not mistaken.

---------- Post added at 06:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:18 PM ----------

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where there is only one hypothesis (a UH -Unified Hypotheses ) that explains everything about the phenomena. I have always suspected that we have yet to actually imagine what the true explanation actually might be. IMHO the truth is probably stranger than we can actually imagine.

This is because the data may show separate causal streams--one stream dealing with human genetic memory (the collective unconscious), another dealing with real physical events (i.e. aliens from other star systems) as well as beings that are in a nearby "world" or universe that happens to collide with ours (perhaps caused by two branes converging to a point for a brief moment). So the truth may be simpler if we narrow the scope. Lumping all unexplained phenomenon into the "paranormal" bucket is both ontologically deceptive and counterproductive.

 

[Trajanus]

I disagree in part.

There is absolutely no question that governments, particularly the United States government, has used the UFO phenomenon as a smokescreen for its own secret projects..

Generally it's been the other way around.

However, to say that the "GH" is the only explanation is patently absurd.

I'll say.

 

[Trajanus]

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where there is only one hypothesis (a UH -Unified Hypotheses ) that explains everything about the phenomena.

Advanced ETs can. That's what most sightings point to; moreover, all aspects of the phenomenon arose or increased more or less concurrently--post WWII, which argues for a single basic source. We're all awre of "high strangeness" cases but sophisticated aliens can produce all kinds of bizarre apparitions and experiences. There's a likely motive--keep us guessing about what the phenomenon really is. As long as there's no consensus as to what we're up against, there's unlikely to be much action.

 

[saucerwench]

I am extremely interested to read about James Carrion's new views on the ufo 'phenomenon', because I myself came up with exactly ----- this (his) theory on my own, TOO. It is right here somewhere in the Paracast forum. I don't have time to find it today, maybe someone else knows right away off hand. The theory that the 'ufo phenomenon' is really an elaborate (I call it PSYOP) created long ago and taking on a life of it's own, over the decades, with the help of ufologists, thereby inculcating intself enmass into the psychies of humans and becoming firmly ensconsed there. < The view that intelligent extraterrestrial humanoids in galactic ships from other planets). Just look at how many spooks (mainly CIA) are in this field. I personally know of at least four.

 

[trainedobserver]

I am extremely interested to read about James Carrion's new views on the ufo 'phenomenon', because I myself came up with exactly ----- this (his) theory on my own, TOO. It is right here somewhere in the Paracast forum. I don't have time to find it today, maybe someone else knows right away off hand. The theory that the 'ufo phenomenon' is really an elaborate (I call it PSYOP) created long ago and taking on a life of it's own, over the decades, with the help of ufologists, thereby inculcating intself enmass into the psychies of humans and becoming firmly ensconsed there. < The view that intelligent extraterrestrial humanoids in galactic ships from other planets). Just look at how many spooks (mainly CIA) are in this field. I personally know of at least four.

That almost has to be a part of it doesn't it? And you are so right about ufology doing a number on itself as well. Who needs disinformation agents from the outside, although there is ample evidence of those of course.

 

[Ron Collins]

That almost has to be a part of it doesn't it? And you are so right about ufology doing a number on itself as well. Who needs disinformation agents from the outside, although there is ample evidence of those of course.

I think it may be a byproduct of the phenomenon but I do not think this is the root core of the phenomenon. There are an awful lot of shenanigans to fool a relatively small portion of the population who are actually interested in these subjects anyway.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

There is some kind of glitch afoot. Maybe it will clear up after I post this but right now this site says I have posted only 46 times (Wrong. It's a few hundred.) and that I've been thanked 4,294,967,287 times, lol.

 

[Michael Allen]

Looks like a 32bit int overflow of some sort-- i.e. note that 2^32 = 4294967296

 

[Trajanus]

The theory that the 'ufo phenomenon' is really an elaborate (I call it PSYOP) created long ago and taking on a life of it's own, over the decades,

Impossible IMO. Carrion painted it as an attempt to help uncover soviet spies. But Rudiak pointed out that a UFO scam wouldn't work over the years unless there was a real phenomenon that both powers believed in, based on radar and physical traces. Time and again, the phenomenon did what no earthly technology could.

 

[Xylo]

There is some kind of glitch afoot. Maybe it will clear up after I post this but right now this site says I have posted only 46 times (Wrong. It's a few hundred.) and that I've been thanked 4,294,967,287 times, lol.

Don't think that your presence on this board is unappreciated.

 

[saucerwench]

Impossible IMO. Carrion painted it as an attempt to help uncover soviet spies. But Rudiak pointed out that a UFO scam wouldn't work over the years unless there was a real phenomenon that both powers believed in, based on radar and physical traces. Time and again, the phenomenon did what no earthly technology could.

UNLESS, we have been flying the kinds of exotic craft rumored to have been in development within the super classified 'SkunkWorks' 'S4' type of sites. I always heard that, everything you become aware of, is decades behind whats in the 'Special Access'.
Then again, on the other hand, maybe there really are, after all, "intelligent humans in galactic ships from other planets" that have been coming here. As I am not emotionally invested in the answer to the Ufo mystery.

 

[Kieran]

I am extremely interested to read about James Carrion's new views on the ufo 'phenomenon', because I myself came up with exactly ----- this (his) theory on my own, TOO. It is right here somewhere in the Paracast forum. I don't have time to find it today, maybe someone else knows right away off hand. The theory that the 'ufo phenomenon' is really an elaborate (I call it PSYOP) created long ago and taking on a life of it's own, over the decades, with the help of ufologists, thereby inculcating intself enmass into the psychies of humans and becoming firmly ensconsed there. < The view that intelligent extraterrestrial humanoids in galactic ships from other planets). Just look at how many spooks (mainly CIA) are in this field. I personally know of at least four.

With the help of Ufologists? or could some Ufologists be part of something bigger if we found out, it would shock ufology to the core. After the Troubles of Northern Ireland which ended in 1960-1990. A secret was discovered, that one of the top leaders of the IRA fighting the British, was working for British Intelligence. It caused a storm on both sides of the border of Ireland. That this guy for over 30 years was playing both sides. While it might be far-fetched to accuse some of our more respected ufologists of wrongdoing, be open-minded, and do not underestimate the "Power of Money"( being paid over) to influence thinking.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

It is difficult to imagine a scenario where there is only one hypothesis (a UH -Unified Hypotheses ) that explains everything about the phenomena. I have always suspected that we have yet to actually imagine what the true explanation actually might be. IMHO the truth is probably stranger than we can actually imagine.

Sounds like the trickster (theory) at work & play... *smile*

 

[Trajanus]

UNLESS, we have been flying the kinds of exotic craft rumored to have been in development within the super classified 'SkunkWorks' 'S4' type of sites. I always heard that, everything you become aware of, is decades behind whats in the 'Special Access'.

Soviet intelligence would've likely known about that.I doubt they could've accounted for UFO behavior as far back as the 40s and 50s especially.

Then again, on the other hand, maybe there really are, after all, "intelligent humans...

Humanoids--strange beings--another reason for doubting Carrion.

 

[pininmefin]

Billy Cox wrote an article about this http://devoid.blogs.heraldtribune.com/11013/a-lone-rider-goes-over-the-hills/

Apparently he now thinks all UFOs are “an intelligence operation by the United States and its allies during the Cold War and that intelligence agencies continue to promote the UFO myth for national security reasons.”

Hmmm...a curious change of perspective from the ex-head of MUFON!

same unit as cliford cliff. if you do your reasearch....................

 

[manxman]

bump......


Who is cliford cliff, google is getting me nowhere.

Anyone know pininmefin was referring to.