James Carrion, "The Rosetta Deception," July 20, 2014

[mike_thoth]

I agree with Mr. Carrions opinions regarding the UFO crowd closing ranks on some cases. For many people, including UFO researchers (they are human like the rest of us) the constant talk, conferences & social norms of an "in group" can certainly lead to a sort of cognitive dissonance.

The challenging of a world view has led to many rises and falls, just look at the history of science for that.

Traditional Ufology has become a belief system in my opinion, with different levels of belief, facilitated with the deception of witnesses by forces of intelligence but also the encounters themselves. On a social level, I would love to study the route is such belief structures, the phenomena plays it's part.

I've said before that I don't agree 100% with Stan or other researchers. But I think the nuts & bolts researchers, like Stanton, are a product of an earlier time & we still need them.

If anyone read Ann Druffels book Firestorm (a truly excellent work" you get the feeling (I certainly did anyway) that scientists like McDonald, Friedman & many others preferred to concentrate on the physical cases in an effort to engage the scientific community, to make them act because surely if they did, the skills, techniques & tools of science could, at a primitive level, prove that there is a real, physical phenomena.

Once this goal is achieved the idea would be to get science on a global scale to investigate. Leslie Kean's recent book is attempting the same thing. Good cases, great cases to engage the scientific community. In 60 years no progress has been made, at least in the open civilian literature.

Given that sad state of affairs & looking back over the years these petty, stupid arguments have resulted in chaos, mixed up thinking with each group,setting thier own goals. Socially the reality of the phenomena doesn't matter. The public accept it because science has let us down. Therefore these knowledge gaps are exploited by other groups, leading to mass confusion, belief systems & name calling, the hallmark of Ufology.

Where is the joined up, single minded objectives? Surely the past tells us more of the same is useless.

If we want a breakthrough then let's aim for it, rather than getting bogged down in conjecture.

Once again I step off my soapbox.
Michael

P.s. Sorry for typos.

 

[Wade]

Get this man a corner in Hyde Park

 

[James Carrion]

Sounds like the early sightings, in the 30's was the Swedish Government and in the 40's also included the British , U.S, Greece and some of the other Scandinavian countrys. So if I understand correctly , if this was just mass hysteria planted by the U.S, either some or all of these country's were aware or they were duped too?

Those are your conclusions, not mine. I don't see any relationship between the 30s mystery planes and the 40s mystery missiles other than strange stuff flying around when geopolitical tensions were high. I never said the US and British had any connection to the 1930s mystery planes but I do show their connection to the Ghost Rockets.

 

[James Carrion]

I'm glad you've brought this up Constance. Through just a casual internet search I've come to realize that the mission for Mr. Carrion seems to be deep set on disproving the bulk of UFO culture by taking each case one by one and dismantling it. Although there's a place for this I'm not sure the mind set is helpful.

How can you possibly know my mission through a casual Internet search? And what the heck is "UFO culture" that I appear hell bent on dismantling? As far as I know "Ufology" is allegedly supposed to be a study of UFOs. Note that I don't inject the word scientific before study - because Ufologists deem themselves exempt from the scientific method. I guess "UFO culture" means that it is some sort of kinship club where like minded people get together to "discuss" and not "study" UFOs. If you want to spend your time armchair philosophizing about the subject, more power to you.

 

[mike_thoth]

Yep, I am still here ... and as convinced as ever that truth should be pursued, not by proxy through other's research, but through independent research of your own...but that requires a sound framework of investigation through compartmentalization ...

There is a spectrum of belief in this field with "true believers" on one end and "true debunkers" on the other end of the spectrum. It is in the sober middle where the breakthroughs will come...the folks on the extreme ends already have their minds made up...

More important, even if you are a healthy skeptic with an open mind, if you don't recognize the human hand of deception in the field, that hand will slap you across the face and towards one of the extremes of the spectrum...

Fully agree with this statement. Even in your own research, hoaxes & convenient displays of human manipulation must be identified & routeded out.

This is where Vallee's work has been utter let unique. Everyone must read Messengers & his Alien Contact Trilogy, if people on this forum are yet to read these mandatory volumes, then u will learn to see the whole phenomena differently & will allow you to see the clear contradictions & fallacy for taking the ETH without deep thought.

Michael

 

[James Carrion]

How do you separate these two events? I understand that as a researcher you would need to have conclusive evidence from both time frames to link them, so what made you ignore this time frame in the 30's?

UFO report files :: Archives For the Unexplained
The UFO-Sweden/AFU report archives also include paper copies of some 3.000 Swedish UFO reports from 1933-34 (ghost flier wave), 1936-37 (second ghost flier wave), 1946 (ghost rockets) and from 1947 up to the present. The combined defence files (except the 1930s ghost fliers) also exist as digitised copies made by the FOI (Swedish Defence Research Agency) and Krigsarkivet (The Military Archives of Sweden).

Plain and simple - they have no relationship. That is like stating that there is a connection between the War of 1812 and World War 2 because they both involved men fighting and dying which although a valid correlation, has a zero relationship to their causes. Amassing thousands of files that span decades and declaring them somehow related because they all involved unidentified flying things is a similarly flawed argument.

 

[Heidi Lemmer]

Plain and simple - they have no relationship. That is like stating that there is a connection between the War of 1812 and World War 2 because they both involved men fighting and dying which although a valid correlation, has a zero relationship to their causes. Amassing thousands of files that span decades and declaring them somehow related because they all involved unidentified flying things is a similarly flawed argument.

Sure I agree, if your compartmentalizing, then all else falls to the wayside. I'm just not convinced of this. I really can't declare they are related, don't know enough on it. But what I am reading is that at the time the Swedish government took an interest in their own air space and released those reports at some point. Then when we get to the time frame you write about , this wave includes all these other countries as well, in sightings. This is where I start wondering if you are trying to fit a world event to the wave instead of a wave happening during a world event. It's an honest question propped up with the fact that Sweden underwent many waves of sightings, some planes and some these ghost rockets. It's also quite a leap to land this down to public illusion when the Swedes conducted numerous investigations. Could it have been missiles being tested that blew up before impact? Anyways, thanks for your time, no doubt I'll read more on this.

 

[James Carrion]

Sure I agree, if your compartmentalizing, then all else falls to the wayside. I'm just not convinced of this. I really can't declare they are related, don't know enough on it. But what I am reading is that at the time the Swedish government took an interest in their own air space and released those reports at some point. Then when we get to the time frame you write about , this wave includes all these other countries as well, in sightings. This is where I start wondering if you are trying to fit a world event to the wave instead of a wave happening during a world event. It's an honest question propped up with the fact that Sweden underwent many waves of sightings, some planes and some these ghost rockets. It's also quite a leap to land this down to public illusion when the Swedes conducted numerous investigations. Could it have been missiles being tested that blew up before impact? Anyways, thanks for your time, no doubt I'll read more on this.

A "wave" is a ufological term, not a scientific term, and I doubt you will find any Ufologist that will agree that a wave spans decades..

Fitting a world event to a wave? Do you mean I am trying to fit a normal mundane explanation for what should be considered paranormal? How about I am showing through official documentation that there is a mundane explanation for the Ghost Rockets, one that doesn't involve paranormal events or extraterrestrial visitors...

As for the Swedish investigation ... did you know that while the Swedes were paying public lip service to being alarmed by the Ghost Rockets, they did not cancel any military leave or beef up their air defense forces or show any actual military response to the rockets - something that so puzzled the American delegation to Sweden that the US military attaches reported back through channels they did not believe the Swedes were telling the truth? Read the attached files from 1947 that sums up the American legation's opinion - these were members of the US embassy staff who were in Sweden and as close to the events as you can get.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

From Stan:

There was an incredible amount of misinformation and some strange reasoning about me and Roswell etc. I have authored 5 books and a monthly column for many years and many MUFON papers. Very little mention. As a scientist I have always felt that facts should be in hand before mouth in gear. My work in industry was almost all classified. I wrote many classified reports. One doesn't pub;lish classified material in the open literature.

New Mexico would be most likely place for aliens to visit. It had the triad that no other place on Earth had. Site of the first nuclear explosion, loads of rockets being launched, and the best radar to track the rockets...beginning of the electronics age. I presume every civilization is concerned about its survival and would keep tabs on the primitives in the neighborhood. It was pretty obvious that ours was a primitive society whose major activity was tribal warfare. Not only did we kill 50 million Earthlings in WW2 but we destroyed 1700 cities.

My awareness of Roswell has been described; nothing to do with disinformation. I told Bill Moore not the other way around... etc ad nauseum. Re Jim Moseley: I knew him for many years. A good example of research by proclomation was Jim's claim that Don Menzel could not have been on Majestic 12 because Jim had met him and he couldn't have led a double life. I had to get written permission from 3 people at Harvard to review his papers. I didn't like the man, but was totally shocked to discover that he had longer connection with the NSA than anybody. He told JFK and was a cryptographer and did all kinds of classified work about which nobody knew....Jim wouldn't believe the evidence. Menzel was just a debunker.!! I know of nobody else who has visited his papers.

I don't have time to correct all the mistakes.

Stan.​

 

[James Carrion]

Wrong thread Gene...I think Stan's response belongs in the Roswell thread...

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Maybe. But I think the links he saw were here and the thread pointing to the episode in which he appeared.

 

[Walter Bosley]

Hey guys. First off, I look forward to reading James' book. Being a 'Cold Warrior' in the 'final years' of that 'conflict' and having continued to work against Russian intel into 1999, I'm digging the details I see on James' blogs re Rosetta. Official documents are so exciting to guys like me! Short of reading the book, I do hope James addresses Roswell from this perspective. His blog indicated that he sees it as a totally separate issue, unless I misread that. Roswell is such a multi-faceted gem. There's the UFO dogma, there is what I've written regarding my dad's claims, there is Joseph Farrell's Nazi tech explanation (which I respect a lot), and Mogul balloons and etc etc. We should consider that aspects of Roswell, if not the whole thing, could have been a perception management deception (Yes, including my dad's story). I totally accept the likelihood of the 'ghost rockets' thing being completely of human hands and mind. It makes sense.

Wade: Regarding synchronicity deception -- it could certainly be done. Not so completely as to eliminate the existence of the phenomenon at its deepest level, but enough to convince the target of a particular interpretation of apparently 'synchronistic facts'. The ultimate difference between an accurate identification of true synchronicity and being misled by a manipulation of perception is a spectrum that forms a bridge across the Rubicon. And you will never get anywhere discussing that in any forum, private or public. But it could be sufficiently done to convince a targeted individual or even a group.

I think the further aggravation to come for the UFO community is that more and more evidence will emerge that much of the dogma has been engineered -- and not just by the intelligence agencies or other government entities. A great portion of it will prove to be the result of apocrypha -- the folks. Does that mean I don't think ET is real? No, of course I think ET is real and out there and has visited here and continues to do so. I just think it's clear that ET doesn't want all of us to know, regardless of the laughable 'right to know' hoo ha.

I'm looking forward to reading the Rosetta book. Maybe I'll disagree then, but it looks pretty interesting.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

And we'll have to get you back on the short to talk about it and other stuff.

 

[ward]

And we'll have to get you back on the short to talk about it and other stuff.

about time we heard from Walter again!

 

[Randall]

It would sure be nice if Ufology was peer reviewed and considered "a science", but there must be some reasons WHY that can't happen.

Yes there is a very good reason why the field of ufology can never be considered a science. In addition to the reasons you pointed out, modern ufology includes a wide array of historical, artistic, religious, and cultural material that falls well outside the boundaries upon which the scientific method can be applied. This doesn't mean that such material isn't valuable or that theses various facets can't be looked at from an objective and scholarly point of view. It just means that science isn't applicable to the field as a whole and therefore the field as a whole can never become a science unto itself. It can ( and is ) a field of interest and study in which science can ( and should ) be applied where and when it is applicable, and then verified by accredited scientists at arms-length from the field itself.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

The old interviews of Walter have been gems and the web of Intel groups in this field would be the amount of the UN . Always like listening to Walters dad's story of events and others stories which sound similar to his. Not all warriors wore uniforms either and wonder what went through the rat lines from London to Moscow and Rome to USA.

 

[DissectionStalker]

From Stan[ton Friedman]: New Mexico would be most likely place for aliens to visit. It had the triad that no other place on Earth had. Site of the first nuclear explosion, loads of rockets being launched, and the best radar to track the rockets...beginning of the electronics age.

Oh contraire, Mr. Friedman, IT IS THE most likely area for Top Secret Man Made UFO's to fly and test out and COVER-UP with all kinds of BS. BLATANTLY, IT IS THE MOST LIKELY REASON it's The Military & Their Favorite Toys In Their Favorite Sandbox.

Oh yeah, what are the odds those ADVANCED ET's travel light years only to crash in the same area, again, where all the Human's are crashing their military tests and weapons, the Human UFO's?

WHY RU soooooooo far off with playing the right odds...

A Las Vegas religious fervor... rolled your hot dice... such far out fever... it's...

Snakebit!

[Hot Roll: The ET's are here when they want to be and do not crash for the Silly Rabbits and Wiley Coyotes playing in the desert flying you off their cartoon cliffs of disinformation.]

Beep Beep

 

[Gene Steinberg]

From Stan:

I have also pointed out that not only was NM the location of out first nuclear explosion (Trinity site) but 2 of our 3 nuclear weapons labs.. Los Alamos and Sandia, are in New Mexico.Any visitors would want to know the extent of our progress concerning nuclear weapons. We are a threat to the local neighborhood. Fusion rockets can get us to stellar neighbors.

Nuclear weapons would help destroy them. Remember that a planet on which 50 million earthlings were killed and 1700 cities were destroyed in one war is hardly a place any sensible aliens would want to have visiting them.

If the saucers were of Earthling origin why have they not been used in Earthling wars Korea, Vietnam, etc etc.

Stan Friedman

 

[manxman]

If the saucers were of Earthling origin why have they not been used in Earthling wars Korea, Vietnam, etc etc.


They crashed to often stan.

 

[DissectionStalker]

[Stanton Friedman wrote:] We are a threat to the local neighborhood. Fusion rockets can get us to stellar neighbors.

We were NOT a threat to the local neighborhood in the 1940's, and we are still NOT A THREAT to the local neighborhood 70+ years later. We still don't have a lunar base 45+ years after going there a few times and stopped, and we haven't figured out a final design about how to get to Mars safely and return humans for a short visit, much less, have the political will to establish a base there or on the moon.

We don't test fusion rockets that work in space, nor do we seriously plan to build these fusion rockets in this century that I'm aware of. The local neighborhood is still light years away.

ET did not have to come here and crash just to see our feeble atomic bomb site in the desert??? Really? Assuming ET even detected such things, then ET would know a lot more about the tiny explosions these tiny atomic bombs were in the detection analysis. And, ET could certainly just watch our TV signals to learn all about these "dangerous humans" without even coming here. If ET is in a similar biological type of body that crashed and died, then it was far more likely ET would have sent a safe probe to monitor Earth and not risk their life forms.

Anyway, I find it laughable that ET would believe we're a threat to the neighborhood even now considering we have no chance or way to get there in fusion rockets. We can't even produce fusion energy for any useful purpose on Earth, and that's been promised for decades now.

There is no "hard evidence" ET's UFO crashed at Roswell available now to UFO believers, and those that believe there is can only believe the government is still hiding or lost it. An unprovable conspiracy started-up by clowns like Doty and his Silly Rabbit puppet masters screwing the minds of Americans in the same desert like Bill Moore, Mr. Bennewitz, and Linda Moulton Howe, etc. etc. 30+ years later.

Was it worth this nightmare just to try and snag a few Cold War spies and continue to use [human made] ET UFO's as a cover [for example] to dissect Cold War cows too? Or, probe nuclear weapons sites too?

I'm not suggesting ET or their UFO's have never been here, but the US Military has played psychological warfare on the American people since WWII. You've been PSYOPS'd. That's my opinion.

I do want to thank you for your seemingly sincere efforts to prove ET UFO's are real, etc. I think it is safe to believe there are probably millions of intelligent beings throughout the Universe. Hopefully, those ET's that can travel light years to other planets will be peaceful in nature, but "The Klingons" may exist too. If humankind can survive to travel light years to other Earth like planets, then I think we will be going in peace.

We only seem hellbent [in some ways] on destroying ourselves, and we just may succeed in doing that too!