James Fox -- July 1, 2012

[Goggs Mackay]

The skeptics automatically side with any witness who does not think they saw a UFO. We are probably all guilty of bias though and it would be very unfair to put this behaviour all on skeptics.
I hope I am man enough to admit when I've been biased and when it can be shown to be the case, I will admit I was wrong.

Taking the case of Phoenix, no-one argues that whatever was seen - did resemble both a formation of planes and a large v or boomerang-shaped craft. Without corroborating evidence, we may never know.

What I am most interested in however, is the cases that are absolutely NOT a normal aircraft etc. Usually by virtue of performance or size.

I have asked the question of any skeptic reading this before that I am interested in explanations of cases such as Japan Airlines in Alaska. The sheer size and capability of the reported object rules out human-made craft and let's not forget that there were multiple radar hits indicating 'a flight size of two' - which basically means 'shit, we have a HUGE track'. Now, fair enough if we were only regarding radar data , there could be other explanations but when the pilot is relaying information as the event unfolds and he is looking directly at this huge object then I am just perplexed that anyone could dismiss this case.

I am still waiting for the skeptical view of this case. It only take one....

 

[exo_doc]

The JAL flight 1628 is one of the best cases I know of. Radar, visual sighting by professional pilots, and follow up sightings later of objects matching descriptions. Some of my other favorites are the RB-47 case (although Lance says that case was chewed up by someone, but I never could locate the article), the Hudson valley sightings back in the 80's, the Delphos Kansas trace case, the Steven Michalak case, the Cash-Landrum case, and the Rex Heflin sighting and photos.

And you're right, just like Stan Friedman says, "All sightings don't have to be real, it takes just one", or something like that.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Exo - I have tried to find a debunking of JAL but no luck so far. I get the feeling there are cases debunkers would rather not think about.

 

[exo_doc]

Exo - I have tried to find a debunking of JAL but no luck so far. I get the feeling there are cases debunkers would rather not think about.

I think you're right. Pick and choose the cases that holes can be or are created to blow it off.
But after reviewing cases such as the ones presented at this website; UFO EVIDENCE - Scientific Study of the UFO Phenomenon ...case after case after case of reliable witnesses, radar hits, physical evidence both environmental and physiological, photos and film....I just don't understand how someone can deny there isn't something extraordinary beyond the norm going on.
It seems to me the skeptics would just get tired of debunking so many cases, and they would eventually run out of creative explanations that are more often than not even more of a stretch than the ETH.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

If some UFOs are manufactured craft made by anything other than us, then for me a few things follow on logically.
Governments would cover it up due to possibility of upset and most importantly our petro-chemical addiction would be under threat if new power sources are available.
Disinformation would certainly take place and if so, prominent public people would be used to spread that disinfo.
I have little problem believing Phil Klass or Donald Menzel were fully aware of the reality of UFOs but were paid to, or chose to, back the official line. I mean, when you look at how plain ridiculous some debunking is, and the supposed scientific 'quality' of some debunkers, I can only imagine they are deliberately ignoring glaring evidence. I refuse to believe people like Klass are that stupid.

 

[SPX]

Biologists, zoologists, anthropologists and tons of other scientists record and publish their visual unrecorded observations all the time and we never question what they witnessed.

I've thought about this many, many times. Skeptical types, who often take pleasure in regarding themselves as "scientific," put stock into all kinds of observations every day, especially from the scientific community. If human perception is so fallible that they are, in mass quantities and independently, regarding a V-shape of lights high in the sky as a 2-mile-wide solid craft floating silently just above the city, then how can you have in faith in laboratory observations and experiment records?

We do know that eyewitness testimony can have serious problems. People don't always remember things as they happened. But the distortion in the details is usually trivial, i.e. the suspect had on a blue shirt instead of a red shirt, rather than mistaking a human for an ape.

Yes, delusional people are out there. And perhaps even a generally sane and reasonable person can have a temporary lapse into insanity where he or she experiences hallucinations. But hundreds or thousands of people at the same time, having the same wild imaginings?

I have seen interviews with the Phoenix lights witnesses, and I'm no mind reader or psychic but they seemed genuine and sincere in what they were describing. And for the most part, they seemed relatively intelligent and not the "jumping to conclusion" types (I may be wrong).

I agree. At least the interviews that I have seen seemed to feature just regular folks. The same kind who live next door to you and have families and get up and go to work like anyone else.

The way the debunker handles this is to look long and hard for a few who are clearly unstable and say, "See? These people are crazy. Told you all along."

To me it's called giving the benefit of the doubt. Am I a naive sucker? A case could be made for that, but I personally don't feel that way.( maybe blind too?)

Well if you're in that camp then I'm right there with you.

 

[SPX]

And you're right, just like Stan Friedman says, "All sightings don't have to be real, it takes just one", or something like that.

A.k.a. William James's "white crow" argument: In order to prove that not all crows are black, you needn't prove that none are. You must only find one white crow.

And yes, if just ONE UFO case has a non-terrestrial origin then that's all it takes to prove that our world/universe/multiverse is far more complicated than we currently believe.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Remember there was a boy saying he actually lay down in his driveway and looked directly up at this object, noting the silence, the slow moving and most notably, the object blocking out the sky as it went overhead.
The people who reported seeing aircraft in formation may have mistaken a UFO for a formation of planes!

Lance Moody told me there were plenty of witnesses who saw the 8:30 event as a formation of jets. I would be interested to find out exactly how many reported a formation and how many a single large craft?
If a formation of jets went directly over my head, even if they were at 19,000 feet I know for a fact I would hear them! One jet fighter is loud. 5 or 6 is very loud indeed and I do know this having been around many jets both in the military and at airshows.

 

[exo_doc]

No Klass was not stupid. His psychological dysfunction just couldn't allow for the possibilty that man was not the smarest critter in the uiverse. So, like any zealot, he did whatever it took to try and discredit ufology, even if he had to distort, ignore, outright lie, or even try to bribe people to lie (as in the Travis Walton case involving an attempted 10K bribe).
I have no evidence, just a hunch, that he was also somehow connected to the Governments disinformation campaign. But that is really just speculation on my part.

 

[exo_doc]

Exo - I have tried to find a debunking of JAL but no luck so far. I get the feeling there are cases debunkers would rather not think about.

I've been looking for several hours now for a debunking of the JAL 1628 flight too. I can't find one anywhere. Does anyone else know where one is?

Found a really cool website though....: Grasp The Universe - Evidence for the existence of extra-terrestrial life.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Check out Bruce Maccabee's site - he rips apart Klass's ridiculous, impossible explanation. That's all I could find.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

Thanks Gogg,

My understanding is that the requests for the radar info came too late (after the tapes had been recycled or destroyed). The "researchers" missed this opportunity. I do not know if the source of the flight has been ascertained (or can be). Ortega goes into this a bit, as you may have seen.

There is good evidence that at least some of the city government wanted to perpetuate the mystery.

Lance

I have to say that although it is perfectly understandable that radar tapes are re-used if not specifically kept, flight plans are kept and it should be easy enough to track down these planes that were supposedly mistaken for the object. Possibly one single plane off track might be difficult to track down but 5 or 6 in formation over a major city? There absolutely has to be a record of the flight plans. This is all that is required to put this one to bed forever.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I was staying in a motel in Casa Grande that night -- right off Interstate 10 and I can assure you no flight of 5 or 6 jet fighters flew over -- headed south or otherwise. A huge "mile-long" craft did, however, according to excited witnesses whom I spoke with just after 9 PM. I was inside watching the NCAA Finals and missed all the excitement going on overhead, but talked with several excited witnesses minutes after the thing (whatever it was) flew slowly by... By chance, were you there Lance? Did you interview any witnesses and look into the case that very night?

True UFO sighting events boil down to being in the right place at the right time. Plain & simple. Some people get lucky, most people do not and then some choose to dismiss the whole subject out-of-hand because they haven't lucked out. Keep looking up, dude, maybe you'll get lucky too someday. But its OK Lance, rest assured, the aliens DO love you and would really love to meet & greet yer ass.

 

[Sean Elifritz]

Then what did Terry Proctor videotape at 8:30? Is his video a fake? An alien spaceship? Or planes flying in formation? If it was a mile-long ET mothership then it was morphing in shape as it traveled... but that isn't what the witnesses reported either.

The majority of the time I agree about "being in the right place at the right time" but in this instance there is a video that can be viewed by anyone at anytime.

 

[Goggs Mackay]

I wasn't there so I can't be sure what happened. However, I think there should be no problem tracking down who exactly was flying jets in formation. Pilots have to file flight plans - it's the law!
Why is it so difficult to show the flight plans for multiple jets over a major city in such an advanced country? As soon as I see any of that I'll consider this one done but not before.

Anyone in the forum have a private pilot's licence? So they know about finding out filed flight plans etc?