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Jan W. Vandersande Ph.D. Guest on 7.13.08
- Thread starter valiens
- Start date
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rochester92
Student of Philosophy
David mentioned Colonel Henry Steel Olcott and his research book "People from Other Worlds" several times during the show.
If you are interested in hearing more about Olcott, his research into spiritualism, as well as the other fascinating details of his life, check out this podcast --
http://www.occultofpersonality.com/...-the-life-and-work-of-col-henry-steel-olcott/
Thanks.
If you are interested in hearing more about Olcott, his research into spiritualism, as well as the other fascinating details of his life, check out this podcast --
http://www.occultofpersonality.com/...-the-life-and-work-of-col-henry-steel-olcott/
Thanks.
ah ha ha, i do admit by the third time the word was used, my brain had started playing the movies theme song in the background
who you gonna call ?
digigeek
Pompetus of Love
Like many others, I thought this was long ago debunked and simply not taken seriously anymore.
Why in the dark? Really. Not some simple, pat answer, but a real challenge.
Why are only certain people allowed to touch it? Come on, that really suggest a fake.
Why is everything so controlled and overly dramatic? Just do it. If a medium can do this, then just do it and allow IR and other technology to see it. If you won't allow it to be put to the test, it is not worth thinking about.
I really feel badly for Jan when he keeps saying things like "I don't know, it was just not allowed...", "I don't know, it just happened" without any real analysis of what he saw and experienced. He saw what he WANTED to see - a magician or illusionist's perfect audience.
Oh yeah, how can he, a Phd say things like "I don't know...you NEED a medium..." (to make it happen). What happened to his critical faculties?
Why in the dark? Really. Not some simple, pat answer, but a real challenge.
Why are only certain people allowed to touch it? Come on, that really suggest a fake.
Why is everything so controlled and overly dramatic? Just do it. If a medium can do this, then just do it and allow IR and other technology to see it. If you won't allow it to be put to the test, it is not worth thinking about.
I really feel badly for Jan when he keeps saying things like "I don't know, it was just not allowed...", "I don't know, it just happened" without any real analysis of what he saw and experienced. He saw what he WANTED to see - a magician or illusionist's perfect audience.
Oh yeah, how can he, a Phd say things like "I don't know...you NEED a medium..." (to make it happen). What happened to his critical faculties?
I have studied American Spiritualism for a number of years, so I didn't find Dr. Vandersande very convincing -- not even convincing enough to go out and buy his book. He didn't add anything new to the case for Spiritualism, and for the most part didn't know his history. His "best evidence" is the same stuff researchers were discovering a hundred years ago.
So we are no closer to solving "The Mystery".
And David, the Eddy Brothers were from Vermont, not Connecticut.
So we are no closer to solving "The Mystery".
And David, the Eddy Brothers were from Vermont, not Connecticut.
CapnG
Devil's Advocate
I'll tell you one thing I REALLY don't buy, this whole "It will harm the medium" shit. What? Spare me.
It's simple. You get one of these "real" mediums to do several seances and you document each one with the latest scientific equipment. A dozen at minimum. Then collect the data. If it's real it'll be proven; if it's not case closed.
It's simple. You get one of these "real" mediums to do several seances and you document each one with the latest scientific equipment. A dozen at minimum. Then collect the data. If it's real it'll be proven; if it's not case closed.
DaveM
Paranormal Adept
This episode was very disappointing. The good doctor spoke very little on life after death, to be honest. He seemed to be hung up on the ectoplasm discussion. The biggest annoyance was when he would use the word "impossible", every other sentence. I found it a little difficult to listen to a scientist who throws out that word constantly. It leads me to believe his mind is closed on certain subjects.
Flatwoods
Paranormal Maven
I was disappointed too, because as soon as he started talking about ectoplasm I remembered some old photographs I'd seen in a book about psychic mediums. The photos clearly showed a medium regurgitating cheesecloth, and then holding it out in front of herself like a sheet. As for the "floating horn", that seems strangely familiar as well. It's like they studied all the old tricks that were debunked a hundred years ago and put on a big show. The poor doctor got scammed.
On a side note, it's interesting to consider how the act of regurgitating fabric could be very hazardous, especially if an observer yanked on it while it was coming out. In that respect, the mediums' rules about not touching the ectoplasm would have a very real and practical purpose.
On a side note, it's interesting to consider how the act of regurgitating fabric could be very hazardous, especially if an observer yanked on it while it was coming out. In that respect, the mediums' rules about not touching the ectoplasm would have a very real and practical purpose.
Lefthanded Buddha
Paranormal Novice
I'd like to jump onto this thread and add something small:
Somewhere in this inverview it was mentioned that "development circles" used to take place long ago...
I'd just like to point out that if you go to any metaphysical book store that offers classes and workshops, you will find active groups dedicated to helping people develop their psycic skills.
I loved the show, just wanted to mention this small point!
Somewhere in this inverview it was mentioned that "development circles" used to take place long ago...
I'd just like to point out that if you go to any metaphysical book store that offers classes and workshops, you will find active groups dedicated to helping people develop their psycic skills.
I loved the show, just wanted to mention this small point!
Loose Leaf Tea
Skilled Investigator
At the risk of repeating others' comments, Prof. Vandersande seemed somewhat naive as to what constitutes acceptable evidence, in my humble o. As has been said, paranormal phenomena is mercurial, elusive and tricksterish, and whenever established science is used to record data, the phenomena often dries up. That's great news for the debunkers; convenient news for the charlatans.
And why is it that the shades of departed ones have the energy to tell a medium their first name but never their surname? Or have I missed something? Still, I often remind myself not to throw the baby out with the bath water and dismiss everything. The Enfield Poltergiest case is intriguing, (I recommend Guy Lyon Playfair's recent-ish book about it - bonus, John G Fuller makes an appearance!). And the Spiricom stuff, too, with George Meek and the strange Bill O'Neil who was the 'medium'.
I thought Gene and David did a good job and it was encouraging to hear a scientist taking an interest. (If you're looking for more 'rogue' scientists, I've just started reading Stephen E. Braude's book, The Gold Leaf Lady. Might he be a worthwhile guest?) And yet another recommendation from Biedny's Books! Ah, my wallet's taking a pounding. (I know the book's free online but you can't fondle a laptop the same way you can a book.)
Have you seen this? Not a dancing trumpet but it just goes to show what some of those clever little mediums can get up to when the lights go out...
And why is it that the shades of departed ones have the energy to tell a medium their first name but never their surname? Or have I missed something? Still, I often remind myself not to throw the baby out with the bath water and dismiss everything. The Enfield Poltergiest case is intriguing, (I recommend Guy Lyon Playfair's recent-ish book about it - bonus, John G Fuller makes an appearance!). And the Spiricom stuff, too, with George Meek and the strange Bill O'Neil who was the 'medium'.
I thought Gene and David did a good job and it was encouraging to hear a scientist taking an interest. (If you're looking for more 'rogue' scientists, I've just started reading Stephen E. Braude's book, The Gold Leaf Lady. Might he be a worthwhile guest?) And yet another recommendation from Biedny's Books! Ah, my wallet's taking a pounding. (I know the book's free online but you can't fondle a laptop the same way you can a book.)
Have you seen this? Not a dancing trumpet but it just goes to show what some of those clever little mediums can get up to when the lights go out...
Live at the Witch Trials
Skilled Investigator
He's great Derren Brown. 
Loose Leaf Tea
Skilled Investigator
I agree! Unfortunately, I think he dismisses paranormal phenomena as being 'all in the mind'. Who knows, one day that may be proven to be the case, but I just wish he and all the other debunkers wouldn't rush to these conclusions with such unseemly haste.
Live at the Witch Trials
Skilled Investigator
It makes me chuckle when he did the show about ghosts he was inundated with complaints to the tv channel and yet when he did the show where he shot himself in the head there was hardly any complaints. 
Just finished listening to the first hour of the show. Entertaining, but I couldn't help but roll my eyes with all the trumpet and ectoplasm stuff. Trumpets, ectoplasm, cabinets, curtains, total darkness to me equals fraud big time.
I'll have to check out the Olcott link. If the brothers are the Davenports, then I'll be underwhelmed. The eldest Davenport (Ira?) became friends with Houdini and admitted that they were hoaxters all along. If the brothers are not the Davenports, I'll be interested in reading up on the investigation.
Oh, and the misquoted Randi and many already have. He did not just say, "I always. have an out," he said, "I always have an out. I'm right."
But that aside, the rules don't seem unreasonable to me. Many have taken the challenge. Both sides agree to the terms. And, after all, strick protocals SHOULD be in place, a large amount of money is offered. I wish this guest would take the Challenge. If he wins, he can shut up some of the die-hard skeptics. Sigh...but no-one ever does. There's always one excuse or another.
That said, I am interested in hearing what the second half of the show brings.
I'll have to check out the Olcott link. If the brothers are the Davenports, then I'll be underwhelmed. The eldest Davenport (Ira?) became friends with Houdini and admitted that they were hoaxters all along. If the brothers are not the Davenports, I'll be interested in reading up on the investigation.
Oh, and the misquoted Randi and many already have. He did not just say, "I always. have an out," he said, "I always have an out. I'm right."
But that aside, the rules don't seem unreasonable to me. Many have taken the challenge. Both sides agree to the terms. And, after all, strick protocals SHOULD be in place, a large amount of money is offered. I wish this guest would take the Challenge. If he wins, he can shut up some of the die-hard skeptics. Sigh...but no-one ever does. There's always one excuse or another.
That said, I am interested in hearing what the second half of the show brings.
G
Gil Bavel
Guest
Anybody that's interested in the "real" side of spiritualism should check out (separately) Vipassana (mindful meditation) and G.I. Gurdjieff. A simple Google search will uncover massive amounts of really cool stuff, and even a random click will show you the way.
Here's his Wiki entry, it should be enough to get anyone honestly interested:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._I._Gurdjieff
And do check out the book by my close personal friend John Shirley:
- Gurdjieff: An Introduction To His Life and Ideas by John Shirley, 2004, ISBN 1-58542-287-8
And never fail to read In Search of the Miraculous by P. D. Ouspensky.
Listen to the beginning of our next showI was disapointed in the guest. With his credentials I expected to be blown away. I found him to be guilible (did I spell that right?) I did enjoy the show but where was the wrap up? Did I miss it or did you run out of time?
Mothra
Oh, I see what you did there
Listen to the beginning of our next show
LOL the only reason I didn't kill the interview 3/4s of the way through was because I was waiting for Gene and David's heads to assplode
