January 4, 2015 — Dr. Benjamin Zeller

[Gene Steinberg]

This is one of our most intriguing episodes in recent weeks, in which Dr. Benjamin Zeller, author of "Heaven's Gate: America's UFO Religion," discusses the bizarre history of a cult who staged a mass suicide to, they believed, get closer to the Space Brothers.

We invite your comments.

 

[Randall]

Comment:

According to Wikkipedia, Applewhite's quest began around 1972 after having an NDE, and was initially New Age with a mix of pop culture and Christian eschatology. It seems that the alien facet of their religion wasn't introduced until the rumors surrounding a spacecraft trailing the Hale Bopp comet in 1996, and even then the alleged spacecraft was portrayed by the group as more of a "spiritual" craft, and I didn't hear it being referred to as a UFO until it started getting attention on Art Bell's Dreamland talk radio show.

So given that UFOs don't seem to have been a major part of Heaven's Gate for over 20 years, and seem to have been more emphasized by the media than the religion itself, I don't think it's fair to call Heaven's Gate a "UFO religion"; at least not like the Raëlians, which began with an alleged contact between their founder ( Claude Vorilhon aka Raël ) and an ET in a flying disk like craft. Of course the more that the media and writers portray Heaven's Gate as a UFO religion, the more that image will become entrenched. We could better justify calling it a New Age Spiritual NDE religion, but maybe it's just easier to sell it as a "UFO religion".

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Comment:

According to Wikkipedia, Applewhite's quest began around 1972 after having an NDE, and was initially New Age with a mix of pop culture and Christian eschatology. It seems that the alien facet of their religion wasn't introduced until the rumors surrounding a spacecraft trailing the Hale Bopp comet in 1996, and even then the alleged spacecraft was portrayed by the group as more of a "spiritual" craft, and I didn't hear it being referred to as a UFO until it started getting attention on Art Bell's Dreamland talk radio show.

So given that UFOs don't seem to have been a major part of Heaven's Gate for over 20 years, and seem to have been more emphasized by the media than the religion itself, I don't think it's fair to call Heaven's Gate a "UFO religion"; at least not like the Raëlians, which began with an alleged contact between their founder ( Claude Vorilhon aka Raël ) and an ET in a flying disk like craft. Of course the more that the media and writers portray Heaven's Gate as a UFO religion, the more that image will become entrenched. We could better justify calling it a New Age Spiritual NDE religion, but maybe it's just easier to sell it as a "UFO religion".

What I picked up on only 1 listen of the interview (and I usually do at least 2 to 3 initially), the group's concept of good and evil involved "aliens" from the very beginning. The good aliens were represented as having a higher plane of consciousness. These aliens were trying to cultivate a group of humans with their higher consciousness. At first, the group thought the body would go through a transformation to a higher level (which is very similar to Protestant Rapture dogma that states that the human body will fly into the heavens to meet with Jesus and be transformed in the twinkling of an eye to a higher state of being). But over time, the group shifted to a focus on the soul. But evil from the start was represented by "bad aliens", also called Luciferians who worked with "the government". So you could interpret this to mean that the concept of aliens was always part of the philosophy. I remember when the group was advertising itself in San Francisco. This was in the 70's. Boo and Peep at that time stated that they were aliens, representatives of our space brothers. So my belief is that aliens were part of the group theology from the beginning.

 

[Burnt State]

From what I've read they were a UFO cult right from the start. Here's a good synopsis:

"According to religioustolerance.org, the followers of Heaven’s Gate followed a syncretistic religion, combining elements of Christianity with unusual beliefs about the nature of UFOs. They interpreted passages from the four gospels and the book Revelation as referring to UFO visitation. In particular, they emphasized a story in Revelation which described two witnesses who are killed, remained dead for 3 1/2 days, were revived and taken up into the clouds. They look upon earth as being in the control of evil forces, and perceived themselves as being among the elite who would attain heaven. They held a profoundly dualistic belief of the soul as being a superior entity, which is only housed temporarily in a body. Applewhite said that bodies were only "the temporary containers of the soul...The final act of metamorphosis or separation from the human kingdom is the 'disconnect' or separation from the human physical container or body in order to be released from the human environment."

They believed that about 2000 years ago, a group of extra-terrestrials came to earth from the Kingdom of Heaven (the "Next Level"). One of these was "Do". “Ti”, his female companion, whom he referred to as his “Heavenly Father”, gave him instructions. He left his body behind, transported to Earth in a space ship, and incarnated (moved into) a human body, that of Jesus Christ. A second group of extra-terrestrials returned to earth, starting in the 1920's. Do was the Captain of this expedition; Ti was the Admiral. They each moved into a human body, but somehow became scattered. Do and Ti held public meetings to disseminate their beliefs. They were pleasantly surprised to find that most of their converts were the long-lost crewmembers.

Members called themselves brother and sister; they looked upon themselves as monks and nuns; they lived communally in a large, rented San Diego County (CA) home, which they called their monastery. Most members had little contact with their families of origin or with their neighbors. Many followed successful professional careers before entering the group. Some abandoned their children before joining. They were free to leave at any time. They dressed in unisex garments: shapeless black shirts with Mandarin collars, and black pants. They were required commit themselves to a celibate life. Eight of the male members, including Do, submitted to voluntary castration. This seems to have been a form of preparation for their next level of existence: in a life that would be free of gender, sexual identity and sexual activity."

From:Heaven's Gate History

 

[Randall]

What I picked up on only 1 listen of the interview (and I usually do at least 2 to 3 initially), the group's concept of good and evil involved "aliens" from the very beginning. The good aliens were represented as having a higher plane of consciousness. These aliens were trying to cultivate a group of humans with their higher consciousness. At first, the group thought the body would go through a transformation to a higher level (which is very similar to Protestant Rapture dogma that states that the human body will fly into the heavens to meet with Jesus and be transformed in the twinkling of an eye to a higher state of being). But over time, the group shifted to a focus on the soul. But evil from the start was represented by "bad aliens", also called Luciferians who worked with "the government". So you could interpret this to mean that the concept of aliens was always part of the philosophy. I remember when the group was advertising itself in San Francisco. This was in the 70's. Boo and Peep at that time stated that they were aliens, representatives of our space brothers. So my belief is that aliens were part of the group theology from the beginning.

Interesting. Thanks for that tidbit. It would be futile to dispute that there are elements of belief in ETs within Heaven's Gate, but I question whether the label of UFO cult is the most appropriate. I've heard Christians call UFOs "transports from Hell". Does that suddenly mean Christianity is a UFO religion? I don't think so, and in response to being called a UFO cult, we find this statement by Heaven's Gate: "The media, typically hastily judging them, tagged them the 'UFO Cult ..." ( source ).

So the label "UFO cult" seems to be largely a consequence of media coverage, and when viewed in the context of the rest of their beliefs, UFOs play a relatively small part, and are distinctly separate from UFO studies such as those performed by the USAF and independent scientific-minded groups ( e.g. CUFOS ). Consequently, I think "New Age cult" would be more appropriate, especially since belief in the spiritual aspects of ETs are part and parcel of the New Age movement that emerged in the 1970s at about the same time.

 

[Randall]

From what I've read they were a UFO cult right from the start. Here's a good synopsis:

"According to religioustolerance.org, the followers of Heaven’s Gate followed a syncretistic religion, combining elements of Christianity with unusual beliefs about the nature of UFOs. They interpreted passages from the four gospels and the book Revelation as referring to UFO visitation. In particular, they emphasized a story in Revelation which described two witnesses who are killed, remained dead for 3 1/2 days, were revived and taken up into the clouds. They look upon earth as being in the control of evil forces, and perceived themselves as being among the elite who would attain heaven. They held a profoundly dualistic belief of the soul as being a superior entity, which is only housed temporarily in a body. Applewhite said that bodies were only "the temporary containers of the soul...The final act of metamorphosis or separation from the human kingdom is the 'disconnect' or separation from the human physical container or body in order to be released from the human environment."

They believed that about 2000 years ago, a group of extra-terrestrials came to earth from the Kingdom of Heaven (the "Next Level"). One of these was "Do". “Ti”, his female companion, whom he referred to as his “Heavenly Father”, gave him instructions. He left his body behind, transported to Earth in a space ship, and incarnated (moved into) a human body, that of Jesus Christ. A second group of extra-terrestrials returned to earth, starting in the 1920's. Do was the Captain of this expedition; Ti was the Admiral. They each moved into a human body, but somehow became scattered. Do and Ti held public meetings to disseminate their beliefs. They were pleasantly surprised to find that most of their converts were the long-lost crewmembers.

Members called themselves brother and sister; they looked upon themselves as monks and nuns; they lived communally in a large, rented San Diego County (CA) home, which they called their monastery. Most members had little contact with their families of origin or with their neighbors. Many followed successful professional careers before entering the group. Some abandoned their children before joining. They were free to leave at any time. They dressed in unisex garments: shapeless black shirts with Mandarin collars, and black pants. They were required commit themselves to a celibate life. Eight of the male members, including Do, submitted to voluntary castration. This seems to have been a form of preparation for their next level of existence: in a life that would be free of gender, sexual identity and sexual activity."

From:Heaven's Gate History

Interesting. Thanks for that link. The info I was looking at came from the Heaven's Gate site itself, but either way, the question I'm exploring is: Does a combination of space ships and spirituality automatically create a "UFO cult"? It seems to me that to justify being called a UFO cult, cult members would have to deify flying saucers, the same craft the USAF were calling UFOs and were being reported by Air Force pilots and radar operators. For example, Raëlism was born out of a flying saucer/alien contactee scenario, and is a clear-cut example of a UFO religion, but Heaven's Gate seems to be more ambiguous, more like the Scientologists, which have also characterized as a UFO religion, but I question whether or not simply invoking some sci-fi like story or religious mythology is sufficient. In fact here's a question for the guest:

QUESTION FOR THE GUEST:

Did Heaven's Gate ever make a definitive statement that the UFOs under investigation by the USAF are the same craft that they have merged with their religion? Or was it the media that made that leap?

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Interesting. Thanks for that link. The info I was looking at came from the Heaven's Gate site itself, but either way, the question I'm exploring is: Does a combination of space ships and spirituality automatically create a "UFO cult"? It seems to me that to justify being called a UFO cult, cult members would have to deify flying saucers, the same craft the USAF were calling UFOs and were being reported by Air Force pilots and radar operators. For example, Raëlism was born out of a flying saucer/alien contactee scenario, and is a clear-cut example of a UFO religion, but Heaven's Gate seems to be more ambiguous, more like the Scientologists, which have also characterized as a UFO religion, but I question whether or not simply invoking some sci-fi like story or religious mythology is sufficient. In fact here's a question for the guest:

QUESTION FOR THE GUEST:

Did Heaven's Gate ever make a definitive statement that the UFOs under investigation by the USAF are the same craft that they have merged with their religion? Or was it the media that made that leap?

You claim that to be a UFO cult, cult members would have to deify flying saucers. So you are creating your own definition of a UFO cult that requires the members to literally worship the UFO itself as a god? That is really a far fetched definition, and it is new to me. If a belief system is totally grounded in the belief in aliens, and the evil ones travel in flying saucers, then I believe in the common mind this equates to a UFO Cult. There is no such thing as an "Alien Cult", at least in the common vernacular. I think you are making distinctions that do not apply. You seem to have a nuts and bolts stance toward UFOs, prompting your question regarding whether Heaven's Gate would consider Air Force investigated UFO sightings to be "their" UFOs. So if they did not, this means (only in your mind) that Heaven's Gate cannot be called a UFO Cult?

No offense, but in the short time I have been back, I have noticed that at times you create your own rules and definitions, and then seek to apply them to phenomena and groups. But no one else is obliged to accept your rules and definitions. If I were to proclaim that a car is only a car when it is a 4 door sedan, and that all other vehicles cannot be described as "car", I would probably be frustrated that no one else honors my proclamation. I sincerely don't think you can set up your own rules and definitions and then expect the world at large to honor them. You really have to accept the common usage of a term like "UFO Cult" as it is applied.

 

[Randall]

You claim that to be a UFO cult, cult members would have to deify flying saucers. So you are creating your own definition of a UFO cult that requires the members to literally worship the UFO itself as a god? That is really a far fetched definition, and it is new to me.

Not as far fetched as it might seem at first. Think of it logically. Deification is the process whereby an object or being, whatever the case may be becomes a religious icon or artifact. This isn't my definition. It's standard English. An airplane is just an airplane unless it's been deified by some culture, then it's no longer just an airplane but some something worshipped by cargo cults. Therefore if UFOs and aliens aren't deified, then by definition they are not a part of a religious belief system, and to label them as such is not accurate.

If a belief system is totally grounded in the belief in aliens, and the evil ones travel in flying saucers, then I believe in the common mind this equates to a UFO Cult. There is no such thing as an "Alien Cult", at least in the common vernacular. I think you are making distinctions that do not apply. You seem to have a nuts and bolts stance toward UFOs, prompting your question regarding whether Heaven's Gate would consider Air Force investigated UFO sightings to be "their" UFOs. So if they did not, this means (only in your mind) that Heaven's Gate cannot be called a UFO Cult?

It was the USAF that created the term UFO, not Heaven's Gate or the media. Prior to the Modern Age of Ufology spaceships from other worlds were simply facets of science fiction, so there is a distinction between the two types of craft. On one hand we have distinct non deified objects being investigated by the military and civilian agencies that were given the name UFO as an official designation. On the other, we seem to have a wishy-washy loosely described sci-fi like story that includes spaceships and ETs. So I think the question of whether or not Heaven's Gate actually considered the two to be one in the same is a relevant question.

No offense, but in the short time I have been back, I have noticed that at times you create your own rules and definitions, and then seek to apply them to phenomena and groups. But no one else is obliged to accept your rules and definitions. If I were to proclaim that a car is only a car when it is a 4 door sedan, and that all other vehicles cannot be described as "car", I would probably be frustrated that no one else honors my proclamation. I sincerely don't think you can set up your own rules and definitions and then expect the world at large to honor them. You really have to accept the common usage of a term like "UFO Cult" as it is applied.

It's true that nobody is obliged to agree with or adopt the views I express, but the reverse is also true. I'm not obliged to agree with other people's views either, and IMO if we are to "separate the signal from the noise" we need to apply critical thinking to the evidence and come up with answers that stand alone, independent of the personalities involved. As it happens, you'll find that my views tend to be constructed in that manner. So if someone chooses not to agree with what I have to say, that's fine, but until they provide reasons that are more rational and backed by more evidence than mine, they haven't made a more substantial case, and if they choose not to recognize that, choosing instead to invoke arguments based on personalities or other non-relevant factors, they're essentially choosing to remain willfully ignorant. That of course, is also their choice, and I'll make no apologies for saying so.

 

[Burnt State]

I sense another debate of semantics underway...hope this gets resolved soon.

here's the link to their site - notice at the very top of their site they identify the "UFO two" as their leaders. This cult was always about UFO's and derived their inspiration and destiny from the origin and influence of UFO sightings here on earth. Their worship of the UFO was one where JC would be meeting with those moving to the next level in his own fortified UFO vessel and would move those few through the gate.

Heaven's Gate - How and When It May Be Entered

I think a cult is a cult and putting a word in front of that cult merely defines what inspired them or what they were founded upon i.e. Solar Temple (who also used UFO's in their practice to mess with the heads of their members) and also ended in brutal losses of life.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I sense another debate of semantics underway...hope this gets resolved soon.

here's the link to their site - notice at the very top of their site they identify the "UFO two" as their leaders. This cult was always about UFO's and derived their inspiration and destiny from the origin and influence of UFO sightings here on earth. Their worship of the UFO was one where JC would be meeting with those moving to the next level in his own fortified UFO vessel and would move those few through the gate.

Heaven's Gate - How and When It May Be Entered

I think a cult is a cult and putting a word in front of that cult merely defines what inspired them or what they were founded upon i.e. Solar Temple (who also used UFO's in their practice to mess with the heads of their members) and also ended in brutal losses of life.

There won't be a debate from me, because "ufology" is always right, even though his views are quite peculiar and rather narrow. When I read his thoughts on what I wrote, I just shrugged and thought "Whatever....". It isn't my job to explain the common use of language to this guy. He is who he is. If I define a word to mean only what I insist it means, what would sensible people do but to shrug and perhaps roll their eyes while mumbling "Whatever...." as they walk away.

 

[Randall]

I sense another debate of semantics underway...hope this gets resolved soon.

It's just a discussion. I think it would be interesting to see some release from Heaven's Gate that comments on how some UFO report we're all familiar with ( e.g. Arnold, Roswell, DC '52, Coyne, Bentwaters, Falcon Lake, etc. ) was interpreted by them as one of theirs. That would be a clear indicator that they were referring to the same phenomena as the rest of us, but simply appropriating the term UFO and applying it to their dogma is an entirely other matter. Heaven's Gate and ufologists might be talking about the same phenomenon, but it's not clear, and I don't know the answer. They seem to me to be more New Age and using the term "UFO" very loosely, and as they said themselves, "UFO cult" was a label that the media put onto them.

 

[Burnt State]

There won't be a debate from me, because "ufology" is always right, even though his views are quite peculiar...

There's a lot of eccentricity on this forum, probably why I haven't bothered to seek out any other space. ufology is a character, and he's Canadian like me so that might explain something.

Lots of different cups of tea out here, but it all fits in its own weirding way. And sometimes it's just better to say, 'whatever' and move on to the next point.

It's just a discussion. I think it would be interesting to see some release from Heaven's Gate that comments on how some UFO report we're all familiar with ( e.g. Arnold, Roswell, DC '52, Coyne, Bentwaters, Falcon Lake, etc. ) was interpreted by them as one of theirs. That would be a clear indicator that they were referring to the same phenomena as the rest of us, but simply appropriating the term UFO and applying it to their dogma is an entirely other matter. Heaven's Gate and ufologists might be talking about the same phenomenon, but it's not clear, and I don't know the answer. They seem to me to be more New Age and using the term "UFO" very loosely, and as they said themselves, that seemed to be a label that the media put onto them.

I thought thus episode actually answered a lot of these questions that you have regarding just how central to them the phenomenon of not just UFO's, but alien lifeforms as well, are to their belief system. What I heard Ben Zeller explain was that the UFO two had a channel to the next level aliens in a very familiar space brother manner and that there were also the bad aliens, the Luciferians, who were in cahoots with the evil gov't and the evil FBI who were all busy hung the secret of alien life and alien tech that has been visiting our planet for years just like in X-files. They also took direct scripting from Stargate where aliens are gods, just like in Star Trek's "Who Mourns for Adonais" episode where we saw that really bitter and angry next level god.

This group is all about UFO's and aliens, ufology. That was their whole focus. I know you hate to hear that but that is exactly what Heaven's Gate was selling about Ufology to the masses and it's an important warning about how tenuous realities can take hold in good minds and grow like a cancer or secret gland that just wants more and more. Dangerous stuff that whole believing in aliens...

 

[Randall]

There won't be a debate from me, because "ufology" is always right, even though his views are quite peculiar and rather narrow. When I read his thoughts on what I wrote, I just shrugged and thought "Whatever....". It isn't my job to explain the common use of language to this guy. He is who he is. If I define a word to mean only what I insist it means, what would sensible people do but to shrug and perhaps roll their eyes while mumbling "Whatever...." as they walk away.

So now you decide to get personal instead of dealing with the substance of the posts. It's not about whether I'm "right or wrong" as you suggest, and if you think so, you don't know me at all. But maybe while you're at it, you can explain to me how "peculiar and rather narrow" my usage of the word "deify" is, because every common dictionary I've looked it up in says pretty much the same thing, and it seems to me to be perfectly appropriate in the case of the analogy to the cargo cults, primitive people who deified airplanes. Did Heaven's gate deify the objects the rest of us were calling flying saucers or UFOs? I'm not so sure. It seems they had some dogma involving aliens and spaceships, but in their minds were those ships the same things the USAF was investigating. I don't know the answer. It's not really clear to me. Where is the evidence for that? That's all I'm trying to discern rather than making guesses and assumptions.

 

[Randall]

There's a lot of eccentricity on this forum, probably why I haven't bothered to seek out any other space. ufology is a character, and he's Canadian like me so that might explain something.

Lots of different cups of tea out here, but it all fits in its own weirding way. And sometimes it's just better to say, 'whatever' and move on to the next point.

I thought thus episode actually answered a lot of these questions that you have regarding just how central to them the phenomenon of not just UFO's, but alien lifeforms as well, are to their belief system. What I heard Ben Zeller explain was that the UFO two had a channel to the next level aliens in a very familiar space brother manner and that there were also the bad aliens, the Luciferians, who were in cahoots with the evil gov't and the evil FBI who were all busy hung the secret of alien life and alien tech that has been visiting our planet for years just like in X-files. They also took direct scripting from Stargate where aliens are gods, just like in Star Trek's "Who Mourns for Adonis" episode where we saw that really bitter and angry next level god.

This group is all about UFO's and aliens, ufology. That was their whole focus. I know you hate to hear that but that is exactly what Heaven's Gate was selling about Ufology to the masses and it's an important warning about how tenuous realities can take hold in good minds and grow like a cancer or secret gland that just wants more and more. Dangerous stuff that whole believing in aliens...

I don't mind hearing the evidence. Like I said before, the Raëlians are a clearly defined example, but Heaven's Gate seems more fuzzy. So I just want to be clear about whether or not in the minds of Heaven's Gate members, the UFOs being investigated by the USAF and theirs, were one in the same. They seemed upset about being labeled a "UFO cult" by the media, and I remember Art Bell playing that up, so how much of that perception was the media and how much was really part of their belief system. Whatever that turns out to be is fine with me. It's all a part of ufology history. I never listened to the live show, but I'll check out the podcast and see if there's something there that is more definitive.

 

[Burnt State]

Definitely listen to this show, Randall. This is high calibre Paracast broadcasting. The guest is exceptional, knows his material and the co-hosts carry it strongly through to the conclusion opening up some very interesting ideas about the relationship between UFO's and their audience.

I have not listened to the aftershow yet, but really hope it continues on the interesting points explored at the closing about how technology and science work as natural extensions for a more technological or informed audience. Those that can recognize how UFO's lend themselves easily to exploration via the lens of science and technology are perhaps also more attracted to 'unique' ideas about them, who may even lean more towards cults whose origins are related to sci & tech e.g. Scientology. Still, I have always thought cults are about a personal emptiness that needs some kind of filling.

But I have found that Ufology is quite a bit about seeking, a search for the technological angels in the sky. Belief systems form readily in such fertile imaginative soil. Imaginations are captured easily by the absolute peak of possibility: intelligent alien life flying overhead in their magic machines. Anyone who has ever glimpsed them in the skies or can see some of their reality in the history of sightings and investigations knows this is an addiction of sorts, one unlike any other.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

It's just a discussion. I think it would be interesting to see some release from Heaven's Gate that comments on how some UFO report we're all familiar with ( e.g. Arnold, Roswell, DC '52, Coyne, Bentwaters, Falcon Lake, etc. ) was interpreted by them as one of theirs. That would be a clear indicator that they were referring to the same phenomena as the rest of us, but simply appropriating the term UFO and applying it to their dogma is an entirely other matter. Heaven's Gate and ufologists might be talking about the same phenomenon, but it's not clear, and I don't know the answer. They seem to me to be more New Age and using the term "UFO" very loosely, and as they said themselves, "UFO cult" was a label that the media put onto them.

I apologize. I may just be thick in the head. I just don't see the relevance of whether Heaven's Gate had a sense of identification with the nuts and bolts UFO cases documented by the Air Force. You seem to have made this dichotomy in your mind regarding "real" UFOS that are seen in the sky and even tracked on radar versus "unreal" UFOs that are part of an ideology. I honestly don't see the importance of knowing whether Heaven's Gate felt that your "real" UFOS were piloted by their Luciferians or by their higher consciousness gods. How could we ever know? Are you saying they cannot be a UFO Cult unless they were referring to your "real" UFOS? If so, that is again you creating a definition of "UFO Cult" that no one else accepts. It is like saying nothing can be labeled a religion unless the religion believes in your god. Can't you see that you are applying definitions to terms that only exist within your own mind? It would be like me saying that no one is a professional singer unless they sing Opera. I can adamantly and brilliantly defend this self-made definition, but no one else is going to honor it. Again, the response to me doing this would be "whatever". I wish you could see that. With no intent to be rude, you seem dogmatic about the need to define things YOUR way, and then insist that others defend themselves when they use the common usage of a word or term instead. I again apologize for my lack of ability to express my thoughts more clearly.

If you wish to define UFO CULT your own way, more power to you. Just don't expect others to defend the common usage of the term. Why would anyone bother. You can make up your entire vocabulary, redefining all the words in the English language if you wish. But again I am not going to defend the common usage of those words against your "new" definition.

 

[Randall]

Definitely listen to this show, Randall. This is high calibre Paracast broadcasting. The guest is exceptional ...

After listening to the show ( great show ), and doing some more digging, it's now clear that while UFOs became integrated into their ideology, the ideology itself is Christian based with a foundation in the Judeo Christian Bible. According to Zeller it didn't matter to H.G. if there actually was a ship following comet Hale Bop. Zeller also characterized them as "Christian Thinkers" ( 49:57 ). Other comets, including Kohoutek and Halley were also of interest to them, and in addition to UFOs, they also had an interest in astrology and science fiction. Zeller says:

"An ex-member once told me, 'Go watch Stargate. That'll teach you everything you need to know about the way the universe actually is.' So they were quite aware that fiction, and that sci-fi in particular can have truths within it that are sometimes more true than the truths we think we see." ( 01:00:58 ).​

But again, their primary foundation is based on Christian eschatology. So why then was Heaven's Gate not labeled a "Christian cult" or an Astrology Cult" or a "Stargate cult" or a "sci-fi cult"? These other facets are at least as prevalent as UFOs, yet the label "UFO cult" is at the forefront. It doesn't take much imagination to see that from a media perspective, that "UFO cult" has the most potential as an attention getter, so naturally, even though the way Heaven's Gate viewed UFOs was entirely different than the way serious ufologists view the subject matter, "UFO cult" was the obvious one to go with to sell the story. As a consequence, we see the negative aspects of the whole Heaven's Gate affair rub off on ufology in a sort of guilt by association fashion. Meanwhile it seems like Heaven's Gate's Christian biblical foundation and the New Age movement gets a pass. To impress this point, we have the following excerpt from an excellent New York Times article on Heaven's Gate:"

"During the first year of the mission, there was no mention yet of U.F.O.'s, but The Two already believed that all sensual desires must be stifled, whether they presented themselves ''in a brutal football game or in the back seat of a car in the moonlight.'' Early on, they had also begun to talk of leading others on a physical ascension to a Level Above Human.

That ascension was imminent, they believed. As the ''two lamp stands'' of Revelation, interpreting Chapter 11: 3-13, they would soon be killed by the unfaithful, only to regain life three and a half days later and rise up in a cloud. In the words of The Two, the Lord would then ''pull the trigger'' and begin the world's destruction." ( source )​

To address your question and Chris's about the role and responsibility of ufologists. For my part, when the Heaven's Gate story was picked up by Art Bell, my thinking was that Heaven's Gate was a religious cult and that it was the media that was playing-up the UFO angle for the purpose of ratings, and that although the pop-culture aspect of the UFO phenomenon was being exploited by Heaven's Gate, it bore little resemblance to serious ufology like that of the USAF, CUFOS, or our group USI, and this bothered me.

Therefore it became very important in my mind to dissociate serious ufology groups from the notion of "UFO cults" ( whether they be religious or drug culture based ). At the same time we cannot ignore the facets of UFO pop culture that became part of the Heaven's Gate story. My method of dissociating serious ufology from cults like Heaven's gate is by cataloging Heaven's Gate as a part of the history of ufology under Religion > Mythology & New Age. There we can discuss the notion of "UFO cults" objectively.

 

[Randall]

I apologize. I may just be thick in the head. I just don't see the relevance of whether Heaven's Gate had a sense of identification with the nuts and bolts UFO cases documented by the Air Force. You seem to have made this dichotomy in your mind regarding "real" UFOS that are seen in the sky and even tracked on radar versus "unreal" UFOs that are part of an ideology. I honestly don't see the importance of knowing whether Heaven's Gate felt that your "real" UFOS were piloted by their Luciferians or by their higher consciousness gods. How could we ever know? Are you saying they cannot be a UFO Cult unless they were referring to your "real" UFOS? If so, that is again you creating a definition of "UFO Cult" that no one else accepts. It is like saying nothing can be labeled a religion unless the religion believes in your god. Can't you see that you are applying definitions to terms that only exist within your own mind? It would be like me saying that no one is a professional singer unless they sing Opera. I can adamantly and brilliantly defend this self-made definition, but no one else is going to honor it. Again, the response to me doing this would be "whatever". I wish you could see that. With no intent to be rude, you seem dogmatic about the need to define things YOUR way, and then insist that others defend themselves when they use the common usage of a word or term instead. I again apologize for my lack of ability to express my thoughts more clearly.

If you wish to define UFO CULT your own way, more power to you. Just don't expect others to defend the common usage of the term. Why would anyone bother. You can make up your entire vocabulary, redefining all the words in the English language if you wish. But again I am not going to defend the common usage of those words against your "new" definition.

Thanks for the apology. I think many of your posts are very good, you make some very good points, and they are worthy of further discussion, so it's good to see that this hasn't gone off the rails. The first thing I'd like to clarify is that I don't reject the idea of UFO cults. For example, I've mentioned the Raëlians several times now. There is simply no way to avoid the reality that they are a UFO religion. Our website even has a brief article on them. But what this discussion is about is how appropriate that designation is for the Heaven's Gate group when their foundation is based primarily on Christian eschatology with a heavy dose of sci-fi, a la Stargate, and it seems that the label "UFO cult" was one the media slapped on them ( see the post above )

To continue: The question you raised, "Are you saying they cannot be a UFO Cult unless they were referring to your "real" UFOS?" is IMO a legitimate one. If we're not talking about real UFOs then the logical alternative is fictional UFOs, in which case we're talking about science fiction, not ufology, and as Gene pointed out during the show, sci-fi fans and ufology don't mix well. So what in the minds were the Heaven's Gate people really thinking? Were they all about Stargate sci-fi type UFOs or were they about what we ufologists are investigating? There is an important difference there. Why you aren't seeing the importance of that distinction is something that makes me curious. Maybe you don't think there is such a thing as objectively real alien craft ( UFOs ) visiting Earth, so to you there is no distinction between the fact and fiction of UFOs?

Either way, while we've been discussing this topic, I've been able to establish that Heaven's Gate did infuse their belief system with the same UFOs ( or UFO reports ) that were part of what ufologists were studying. Therefore the merging of these craft with their religious belief system, combined with the small size of the group, and a non-acceptance by mainstream religion, is certainly sufficient to say that the group had UFO cult elements. But those elements still weren't the foundation of their beliefs, so it still seems to me that the label "UFO cult" has more to do with selling the story than accuracy.

Lastly, I will admit to having some bias, but with good reason. I'm concerned that the negative publicity from the story is too easily transferred to serious ufology, and therefore it is important to dissociate serious ufology from cults and religions. So I'm motivated to find ways to make sure that people see that difference. Membership in a UFO interest group doesn't automatically mean that one is a member of a cult. So to me, as someone who founded one such interest group, these distinctions are very important. We've had parents sign their children up for membership, and I want them to be absolutely confident that USI is not a cult and not to be confused with the likes of Heaven's Gate or anything similar. I hope this helps you understand more about where I'm coming from .

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Seeing your perspective, I can see how why a distinction is very important to you. As a gay man, perhaps a metaphor would be when there is a gay pride parade in a city like San Francisco. The parade is predominantly contingents of lawyers, doctors, police, etc who are gay. The intent is to show the world that we are everywhere and in very responsible caring careers. Yet, what does the TV show? If there is one man in drag, all the TV stations will ignore the thousands of gay people in the parade in street clothes and instead show the world the drag queen. This is the image of the gay pride parade that is presented to the general public. Meanwhile, very serious gay people are working diligently behind the scenes to attain equal marriage and other rights. But again, this is never shown.

I sense that this also happens with UFOs and this bothers you a lot since you want to establish the field of ufology as a valid scientific field of investigation. I agree with your intent and goal to do so. It is very admirable.

Now as to my perspective on this so-called "Field". I honestly have studied it for decades and must admit to you that I have reached a point of exasperation and frustration. The field is so full of nonsense and belief systems. The emergence (ufology's version of the Tea Party?) of the Exopolitics Movement and its immense popularity nailed the proverbial nails into the ufology coffin for me. While there may be groups like yours doing serious research, I do think that ufology has become just an entertainment vehicle for the public.

Now, I beg you, please do not write back and insist that you do not include any of this entertainment stuff in YOUR definition of "ufology".

Conferences dedicated to ufology are full of frauds, delusionals, hucksters of every type, and a huge lobby/store where "ufo" books, dolls, DVDs, CDs, key chains, lunch boxes, paintings, pictures, night lights, etc. are hawked for sale. Interspersed in such conferences are more respectable characters like Richard Dolan (although he seems to be smooching a bit too much with the Exopolitics gang for my taste). "UFO Researcher" is a term used by Steven Greer, Richard Boylan, Stan Romanek, Richard Hoagland, Jonathan Reed, Paola Harris, and others of dubious honesty.

You can try to personally change the definition of "UFO researcher" to only refer to serious investigations but you cannot. You honestly just do not have the political and social power to do so.

A few years ago an outsider named Daniel Brenton came into the ufology movement with The Clueless One and Jeff Ritzmann. One of the earlier Paracast shows has all 3 discussing a need for some sort of validation of UFO claims. They wanted a self-policing institution to be created in ufology that would analyze and establish an evaluation process. Daniel Brenton was viciously attacked by the usual cast of suspects in the UFO field. He was driven from ufology forever by those who felt that having such a "board of inquiry" was not egalitarian. Alfred Lehmberg, a writer for UFO MAGAZINE at the time, was particularly vicious to Daniel on a personal level. Daniel threw up his hands in despair and let ufology forever. Check out this Paracast episode if you have time.

I think that you have to accept that Ufology is a terrible disgrace from the vantage point of a serious investigator. I think you have to accept the chaos and carnival atmosphere of ufology. You can't define it out of existence. Just for fun (to perhaps make your blood boil) check out the link below.

Unarius, UFO Cult, Gets Profiled In 'Children Of The Stars' Documentary (VIDEO, PHOTOS)

This is the reality of ufology, and you cannot single handedly change that. You wish to transform ufology into a credible field of inquiry. My honest opinion is that you will FAIL at this. You cannot cast all the delusionals, hucksters and religious faithful "out of the temple" as Jesus did. Instead, you have to do your serious work, knowing that the field is about as glitzy and artificial as the Las Vegas strip at night.

If you wish to distance yourself from all this, I would advise you to stop using the word "UFO' or "Ufology". The word equates to aliens in the public mind and a science fiction host of images in the mind (including those little green men with antenna's that grace cartoons). Find a different term. Create your own. To me, ufology is HOPELESSLY corrupt. You cannot clean it up. Much easier to remove yourself from the umbrella of serious people and loons that fall under the term "ufology" and instead create your own untainted term for what you seek to do. Didn't Robert Haines use the term Aerial Unidentified Objects (AUO) instead of UFO?

 

[SheaOlmsford]

Just a side note: for a long time, MUFON was envisioned as a scientific group of investigators that would bring credibility to the UFO field. Yet, what has happened? My local MUFON chapter (and I live in one of the largest cities in the USA) often features trance mediums of aliens, hypnotic regressionists, abductees of very questionable reputation, and spin weavers as honored guest speakers. In retrospect, this list of guest speakers resembled a carnival freak show, e.g., "Come see the bearded lady, the snake man, the wolfman, the mermaid!"