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July 12, 2009 - John Keel Retrospective - w/ all-star round table

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Clark's comments were a sour note in the show. Other's on the panel clearly had issues with Keel but didn't come across as petty and personally vindictive as Clark did.

The other guests spoke of his flaws but they did acknowledge Keel's influence, and accomplishments and gave him his due.

I think it's more than subjective opinion to say that Keel had a big influence on the field through his books, articles, and ideas. But it seemed that out of personal vindictiveness Clark couldn't even acknowledge this somewhat objective fact.


~Foo Fighter~
 
For those familiar with Keel and his work...

On the previous page I expressed confusion as to why anyone would bother with Keels stuff based on what Jerry Clarke said. I was completely serious.

Im kind of at a loss. Some places he is described as a brilliant man with fresh ideas who was ahead of his time. However in the podcast he was described as a primitive thinker who was fiercely anti-intellectual, and who really didn't have any imagination. (I found that last point hard to believe).

So which is it?
 
Full disclosure: I did a ton of yardwork yesterday and I'm still pretty beat, so I'm definately not firing on all cylinders today.

That said, I found this episode PHENOMINALLY boring. It wasn't just the length either (there are other episodes of the paracast I had desperately wished were longer). No, this seemed to just go on and on without really getting anywhere, a verbal treadmill if you will. I felt like I had been dragged along by my girlfriend to the wake of some obscure relative of hers that I had never met. I stuck it out out of respect for the show and I fully understand why they would want (and perhaps in Gene's case, NEED) to do this show but man...
 
Hey, it's not everyone's cup of tea. I can certainly respect that, no problemo. I went to a play last week, highly regarded, and had to bail after the first 20 minutes. I just couldn't stand it, so I grok.

dB
 
I'm sorry some thought the show was boring, but to each his own, and that's okay. I, myself, loved the show. It was a group of friends with a diverse history sitting around talking about one of their own. Cheers for the episode. I actually found myself laughing out loud during many parts! It was light hearted and I would actually say 'fun'. I nice back-down from some of the more serious episodes, lately.
 
David et al.

David Biedny said:
I'll admit this, if I had to pick a single favorite episode of this show, this one gets my vote. I'll go on a limb and declare that it's the single best audio tribute that will ever exist for Keel, period. I cannot thank the participants enough, they really had some great stories, right? It's the little details about the man that tell you who he was, and these were all fellows who personally knew him. I'm very proud of this one, thanks to all, and especially Gene, who really went out of his way to make this one stand out. Well played, Gene.

dB
Click to expand...

First: Thank god (and Gene) that Dennis and I aren't following this iconic cast!

I wouldn't label this episode as a "tribute" to Keel per se, although accolades were certainly doled out. It was more of an "education" and or avouchment in my view, and methinks it isn't possible to solely commemorate a man like Keel and be honest--and that quite frankly is what we got--the brutal truth, good, bad and indifferent!

Like you, I feel that this is an example of "the best of the Paracast"--WOW! Aside from the fact that the show was precipitated by Keel's death, and was "for Keel" . . . to have this group "all in the same room (so to speak) was nothing short of stupendous!

That was the Super Bowl!

Cheers,
Frank
 
This was an episode for the history books. I know he's been on multiple times, but I'd be interested in hearing more episodes with Jim Moseley in particular. His historical perspective and dry sense of humor are an irresistible combination.
 
Gareth said:
You didnt find the sense of history there through all those great personalities of the field exciting?
Click to expand...

Perhaps I might have if not for the fact that they have all been on the show before and their views and respective bodies of work are often the subject of discussion here on the forums, in other episodes of the show and often in the newsletter.

Maybe I'm jaded, I dunno... Certainly the episode itself was historic in terms of both it's subject and it's speakers (managing the various schedules of the participants could not have been an easy task) so hats off to Gene and Dave in that department.
 
I must say i was little surprised to hear jerry clark announcing that keels entire body of work is pretty much redundant,for me at least (jadoo,mothman,trojan horse and strange creatures)are all extremely enjoyable reads.I would agree with colin wilson in alien dawn where he writes "he was and is- a natural writer,apparently incapable of writing a dull sentence".So he was a bastard from time to time,so by all accounts where celine ,rimbaud and a thousand other writers,and to call steiger the antikeel! as if he hasn't written a few ripping yarns in his time...Anyway i dont want to give the wrong impression here,i am a long time listener, have heard everything in the archives and consider the paracast the best program of its kind...I also understand the problems people have with keels work...its just that at times it sounded so dismissive...the main point of this is to suggest to those who have not read keels work to perhaps have a look for themselves.....best wishes LM
 
Gene,

Gene Steinberg said:
That puts the pressure on Chris O'Brien of course. :)

Thanks for the kind comments, Frank.
Click to expand...

I don't envy Chris having to follow such a "momentous episode" . . . quite frankly I'll wager that, that group has never been together before--history was made!

Additionally, your expertise as moderator was evident, while seguing between the guests.

I'll additionally wager that even the "Calvinist's" tolerated that episode! :D

Cheers,
Frank
 
Gen,

Gen said:
This was an episode for the history books. I know he's been on multiple times, but I'd be interested in hearing more episodes with Jim Moseley in particular. His historical perspective and dry sense of humor are an irresistible combination.
Click to expand...

Here . . . here!

Cheers,
Frank
 
I'll take the middle ground here. The episode was not completely my cup of tea, but it was certainly more pleasant to listen to than having to listen to particularly bad guests getting snippy with dB. (David, no disrespect to you there; it is always the fool wilting under critical scrutiny that makes me cringe, not the critic.)

Jerome was certainly not particularly laudatory, but it was billed repeatedly throughout as "the good, the bad, and the ugly" (or variants thereof), and frankly I preferred hearing that sort of devil's-advocate voice on the panel saying "hey, shame he's dead, but was he 'all that'?"

Great notes of humanity regarding Keel's role in forming friendships, etc. That was really rather moving to me.

I confess, it's rather a shame I've not yet read any of Keel's works. I intend to fix that in the near future.

As an amusing side note, I have a technique for doing numerological analysis on English words, different than the one used by Paracast guest Allen Greenfield but that sort of thing. I make no predictive claims about it except that it occasionally points up connections between things which are interesting. Simple probability says that any such system would give some such results; the question is what are you looking for. And I am delighted to note, as a friend of mine and fellow Paracast listener recently reminded me, in my system "John Keel" and "Mothman" have the same numerical value. So there you go, their linked destinies were ordained by mathematics itself. ;)

--Shawn
 
Frank Warren said:
First: Thank god (and Gene) that Dennis and I aren't following this iconic cast!
Click to expand...

Frank,

I bet I speak for a lot of the show's fans when I say: the high bar for your episode would not be because you followed the John Keel panel (if you did), so much as because we really like what you and Dennis have to say. You set your own bar.

My position on Roswell after years of reading the general fluff out there was that "something Fortean happened, but it's probably far far too late to get a real handle on it". So it's always good to hear honest, sincere researchers stating what they know and what their sources are.

And as for disclosure ... it's almost a dirty word in the field, isn't it, given John Lear's past predictions on the subject and such "revelations" as Serpo, for example. So again, good to hear about a dirty topic from people with some credibility.

--Shawn
 
I did enjoy the show and felt the panel generally gave Keel his due. But to clarify...

It's not that Clark wasn't "laudatory" of Keel, it's that Clark was trying to tear down Keel's work and accomplishments.

Keel popularized the fortean stance with many people who had never heard of Fort at the time. He modeled a way of looking at paranormal things that was unique to most people back in the 70's. He introduced a new frame for considering things. I'm a fan of Keel's writing and he was responsible for changing my world view back in the 70's.

For example...My wife and I met a couple and after we got to know them they invited us to a meeting where there was some newage "channeller" who talked to the garden variety 80's, newage wise entity who had a message of world peace etc. The couple thought they knew us and expected us to jump at the chance.

I asked, "How do you know the entity is sane? How do you know the entity is not a liar?" The couple didn't know how to respond to these questions, things got wierd and we never went with them.

They expected us to either believe or doubt.

But Keel popularized a stance where you can entertain the possibility that perhaps something paranormal IS happening, but some critical thought and skeptimism is maintained and there is an awareness that there may be yet another level to the paranormal event.

It would be called re-framming in today's parlance. I think that's his legacy.

~Foo Fighter~
 
The thing I got out of it the most was the evolution of each participants personal beliefs/theories over all the years they have been working on this stuff.

Keel was a good contrast/case study for the participants to express their own opinions.

When someone has spent 30-50 years looking into this stuff in a serious manner, I gotta keep my ears open.

Seems like some of the reoccurring impressions among the participants were that the paranormal is:

* very real
* complicated
* diverse
* not to be taken at face value
* has been with humans since the beginning
* is subjective
* the context has evolved through the years to fit our expectations somewhat

and many other I can't think of right now!
 
Excellent observations Foo Fighter! John Keel was never afraid to inject his own personal introspections in whatever it was that he was writing about and I always appreciated that. He possessed an acute sense of self-consciousness and he was not afraid to share that with his readers. He also had a real knack for telling things the way they really are even though his logic often times went against popular opinion. He will be missed.

I enjoyed the show very much. Just wish it could have been longer because I'm very intrigued about his life and how he came to be the man that he was; an authentic pioneer, trailblazer and original thinker. I think dB, Gene and some others here are very much like Keel in this regard hence why enjoy the show and this forum. :)

PS -- Rocketsauce, excellent observations too! I agree with everything you are saying.
 
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