July 19, 2015 — Greg Bishop and Walter Bosley

[dmanister]

Constance wrote: " If I'm reading you correctly, your hypothesis is that the perceptive abilities of vast numbers of human beings are drastically unreliable, compromised by one or more of a variety of mental afflictions or psychological conditions, and thus unable to provide accurate descriptions of unidentified aerial phenomena. "

The perceptions of perfectly sane people can be distorted by lack of sleep, fasting, ingestion of substances, disorders of the visual cortex, epilepsy or other brain malfunctions and many other physical causes.

The stigma of delusion or psychosis acts as a deterrent to investigating the accuracy (not the sincerity!) of witness reports. But a minor physical condition, even arising from physical or emotional stress, can significantly alter perceptions and should be factored into evaluations of sighting and abduction claims. In other words, one need not be delusional to see things that aren't there.

I'm guessing that military personnel would be subject to more sleep disturbances and physical and mental stress than the civilian population.

 

[Sue]

There ought to be a good way to winnow the questions down to a new group that results in maximum information for a minimum of queries, but I am not sure how that would be done.

What I am saying is that there may be a way to frame new research so that there are a minimum of assumptions imposed.

It seems to me that one solution to this problem lies in doing inductive qualitative research. This usually starts by recording an in-depth, unstructured interview with whoever had the encounter, asking them what happened in their own words. No leading questions, but follow-on questions for clarification are allowed. Transcribe the encounter and content code it for key terms, phrases or ideas. Repeat a couple dozen more times and you've got a large body of textual data that can be searched either by codes or text strings. Content analysis of the data set should bring to light concepts and themes shared by a group of respondents. These can then be used to construct survey questions for larger scale studies. You won't be imposing analytic categories on people's answers; you'll be letting them emerge from unstructured interview data and then building them into close-ended questions, allowing for population-level statistics.

Basically, the first step should be to sit a person down in front of a recorder and just let them talk, and start collecting that data systematically.

At any rate, that's the rational answer. It occurred to me that Greg's point might have been the need to do an end-run around rationality altogether, in which case I felt I should come up with an irrational answer as well. One problem with just throwing a random question into a structured survey is that unless you've pretested those items in the population you're studying, you really don't what the respondents mean by their answers. However, there are probably a few different ways you could throw an irrational element into otherwise structured data collection and still get valid responses. It's an intriguing problem.

In a different vein, understanding subjective experience cannot be reduced to whether or not the physical apparatus of the body is operating within normal parameters.

Investigating reports of sightings and abductions might include, in addition to questions about the recent history and state of mind of the interviewee, some questions about their physical health. An actual medical exam would be ideal if anyone would submit to it, but at the very least they should be asked if they experience headaches, dizziness, fainting, blackouts, or disturbances in their vision. If they drink and/or take drugs, pain killers, sleeping pills. And they should be asked if they have seen anything else out of the ordinary, to determine if they might be subject to hallucinations.

Those are very interesting and perhaps even critical things to know, but even if we could get good data on those points it would not necessarily address the subjective meaning of an encounter. Subjectivity may be mediated by physicality without being reducible to physicality.

For me, the epistemological underpinnings of discussions like these - about, for example, co-creation - are radical. It's not so much is it our tech, their tech or breakaway tech - it's more like what is knowable and what do we even mean when we say we know something? One of the high points of the episode for me was Walter saying he'd gotten to a point where he didn't feel the need to prove anything to anyone regarding certain phenomena. The experience was what it was; what other people might think didn't matter. This is not ideal from the viewpoint of scientific proof, but it's a data point and also a philosophical argument that can be built on. Or maybe those are the same?

Boomerang: I think both are real, i.e. the human filtering product and the phenomena, the latter causing the former according to the individual's psyche etc. I think what Greg is saying, and has said long before I figured it this way, is that to understand the experience, we must inspect both the phenomena and those who experience it from the perspective you discuss. Therefore it is the experience/incident that will serve to further understand the phenomena. That is, we should continue to dissect the 'evidence' of the phenomena as reported and analyze the experiencer but also now dissect the experience -- all without emotion and done respectfully, of course. Does that make sense?

 

[spacebrother]

The Aviary, Berliz, Moore, Doty, Freidman, etc. were ALL being used by Master Control aka Air Force OSI manipulation. Memories 30+ years later with the interviewers having a definite agenda to expose ET, and their puppet masters having manipulative unknown motives and reasons that are strictly need to know do NOT add-up to The Truth. IMO, ALL of the witnesses were NEVER in "the need to know" loop. These "follow orders" military witnesses were part of the 1947 PSYOPS left outside the inner sanctum of need to know. AND, many of these people 30+ years later may have become victim to their ego and fame created in their local community of Roswell and/or the military brotherhood that gave them the attention and recognition and money to "play the ET game". Witnesses can be paid off too or warned to play the ET game 30+ years later for patriotic or national security reasons too! That does NOT mean they are telling the truth! The operation was Need to Know in 1978 Roswell Mythology too!

Gabe Valdez saw through the Human ET mist. Humans used ET-UFO's to accomplish their Nuke probes, their cattle dissections, and to create some Alien Fear God Mythology that spun-out of control probably well beyond their wildest UFO dreams in 1947 and 1978+. The MIC and PTB KNOW this is a very powerful psychological weapon just as it has always been throughout history with the Ancient ET Alien Gods. It's all been updated and translated and mythologized into the Trillion dollar MIC and Entertainment Matrix now too. The movie 2001 has to be the grand ET-UFO entrance to this window on our universe. What incredible power it has had on us to this very day! It is mind blowing!

The ET-UFO is real, whether it really is or not. It is the Matrix. The PTB have won beyond their wildest dreams, imo, though it may be a case of be careful what you wish for too!

Does it really matter now what really is "the truth" about this? The truth no longer controls our reality, though I'm sure we never knew the truth to begin with anyway. It's all a matter of belief. The Storytellers rule our lives more than the Ancient Alien ET-UFO Gods do. I must admit I've gotten tremendous SyFy entertainment value from these Mythologies, but there is certainly an MIC and political agenda dark side that cuts very deep into our ET-UFO reality matrix too.

I'm talking about others before and after that had nothing to do with AFOSI. It is difficult to assign all military accounts to this operation. Well, you might, but it strains my credulity.

Once you assign everything to one big conspiracy, you lose me. I do not know more about this than the researchers you mention. Both Moore and Valdez I know (knew) personally and they had a much more nuanced view of this than that the "government is using the UFO enigma to mind-control us." It was more like "they use it to their advantage when it is convenient."

My mind is open to possibilities, but one-size-fits-all doesn't sit well with me.

 

[Walter Bosley]

[QUOTE="Sue, One of the high points of the episode for me was Walter saying he'd gotten to a point where he didn't feel the need to prove anything to anyone regarding certain phenomena. The experience was what it was; what other people might think didn't matter. This is not ideal from the viewpoint of scientific proof, but it's a data point and also a philosophical argument that can be built on. Or maybe those are the same?[/QUOTE]

I am probably more philosophical than can be useful scientifically. I've become that way as far as applied analysis to my experiences go, to be sure. As long as I remain functional, I'm OK with the disassociation!

 

[DissectionStalker]

It was more like "they use it to their advantage when it is convenient."

My mind is open to possibilities, but one-size-fits-all doesn't sit well with me.

The 1947 Wave is not limited to Roswell, though the 1978+ Roswell agenda was used by OSI for their agendas. The SyFy Entertainment agendas picked-up on this with their own agendas too, which probably the MIC found very useful to manipulate too. In other words, they use such opportunities to their own advantages that can thrive off each others unique agendas too. It is mutually self-serving and symbiotic too!

Once a PSYOPS event is created, for example, the 1947 UFO wave, whether intentional or not, I've said multiple times MANY sides and ALL sides of the ET-UFO equation is played by MANY vested money, PTB, intelligence, and SyFy interests. This ET-UFO coin is a dialectic argument that is literally a win win for the MIC and PTB and SyFy Entertainment no matter whether it is heads or tails. They absolutely "role play" all sides of this ET-UFO coin of the realm. Many will oppose each other too, but that is ALSO part of the "need to know" agenda too. YES...

Unfortunately, there are ALSO highly compartmentalized need to know programs that PSYOPS EVERYONE outside that program too! That means ANYONE in the military or PTB that are not need to know will never know. That includes the President or any General or anyone else can be sacrificed with "the lie" or the PSYOPS. Hell, the PTB are so powerful now that this can be completely outside the jurisdiction of the ALL government control. IMO, that is where most of these ET-UFO agendas are being carried out for Brain Trust and Mythology creation and weapons development too. I definitely believe the Entertainment Matrix is heavily involved in controlling and being controlled with these agendas to build the Brain Trusts to create the future outcomes these people want to control. IMO.

No one group can possibly fully control the outcomes of the Human caused ET-UFO phenomenon in a micromanaged sense by one PTB "need to know" group. For example, once certain Generals and Air Force pilots were convinced they saw ET-UFO's in the 1940's and 50's, then there was always going to be this phenomenon existing as ET UFO's whether real or not. I've pointed out relentlessly that radar technology MEANS NOTHING about PROVING ANY ET-UFO existence, because radar is NOT perfect even now!!! So, what the hell? That cannot count!

The ET-UFO Pandora's box is unleashed, so we now have many competing agendas to control and influence the ET-UFO outcomes these PTB want. Obviously, the MIC and the SyFy Entertainment Matrix cooperate on some levels whether it is consciously done with intent or not. That Matrix Exists at least from the collective unconscious POV and in some orchestrated agendas too, IMO.

What's worse, is I honestly KNOW and believe as FACT many people see ET-UFO's in their mind's eye whether or not the ET-UFO is really "out there" EXACTLY as they saw it in their mind's eye too! That's why I say... what difference does it really make whether it is the truth or not??? Seriously!

This IS the reality WE live within whether we like it or not. YOU are a target for their agendas whatever they may be. I don't pretend to know the answers or their agendas, but FOLLOW THE MONEY will explain MOST of "the need to know" agendas we will NEVER know.

So, I ask everyone reading this... Do you support the weaponization of Space? Do you support MIC black budget black holes that have NO oversight of YOUR tax money and TRILLIONS in DEBT issued on your behalf -SLAVES??? Yes, we Americans are their indebted SLAVES, imo, because they act as our Human Gods building their pyramids of power. Do you want Nukes pointed at each other on OUR planet? Do you want friggin nuclear power ANYWHERE on our planet after what happened in the USSR and is still happening in Japan? WTF. Look at the map of Nuclear plants in the USA and realize each one has extremely dangerous Nuclear waste accumulating at every single power plant. I definitely believe the PTB ET Alien agenda SUPPORTS these MIC and other paranoia control agendas, though it's not obvious and direct by any means. But ET-UFO Hysteria is REAL and ALL POWERFUL both on the subtle unconscious "fear existence" level and can be turned-on as needed. We do exist within that SyFy Matrix, whether you have taken the Blue or the Red pill. Humanity has always religiously reached out to the ET Alien Gods, and many of us will worship them in awe once they appear in our mind's eye whether real or not.

So, Greg, Spacebrother, when you say "It was more like they use it to their advantage when it is convenient", then I say Hell yes!

 

[Burnt State]

It seems inevitable that there is a plurality of answers to this problem. So tell me, in the spirit of collaboration, what is it that has not worked here on the forum, itself a microcosm of the broader ufological history of discussion & bickering, why is it there has not been more development of evolved, open ended progressive dialogue? Seems that holding onto positions often interferes with creating a more probing evolution of transformative ideas. Or is it that we are just limited to private truths so much that we can never successfully pursue a more diverse approach? Or do you feel that you have shifted in your ideas?

Regarding the weaponization of space and other nefarious exploitations of the planet, and all who live upon her, the PTB don't need UFO'S to build weapons or blow things up. So long as that us profitable and beyond the reach of the voting populous then it will continue in similar fashion. We've always made war movies because it feeds the war narrative to the masses and it is an expression of unique human experience. But if there's a real brainwashing conspiracy it's the one that's convinced my son that he needs to get a car. I'm not sure the UFO meme is responsible for very much profit for the MIC vs. how much it has for Hollywood.

Sue, the recording of lengthy conversations and probing for truth as done in investigatory work also includes using varying methodologies that promote memory recall. These includes a number of different techniques currently called for in contemporary ufology when it comes to witness investigation.

Understanding who a witness is also is important in trying to suss out whatever other patterns that might arise. As Duensing says, the ufo has come and gone but the witness remains - why not study them? How radical is it to look at co-creation when the very act of seeing implicates the seer? The shifting forms of the ufo across varying cultural eras seems to imply that something else is up and we're mixed up in it. It's either that or those bastard airship stock investors are truly responsible for it all.

 

[DissectionStalker]

I'm not sure the UFO meme is responsible for very much profit for the MIC vs. how much it has for Hollywood.

The most recent Paracast with Don Ecker seems to indicate otherwise, because the Black Hole budgets go into UFO technologies more than anything else. We were 2 trillion missing just before 911, according to Donald Rumsfeld -Secretary of Defense, and the defense dept. still cannot account for the money it spends 15 years later. Trillions are off the books and will NEVER be accounted for. LOL.

I bet your standard of living is much higher in Quebec, because your government is more accountable for its taxation. Just how big is your Black Budget that cannot be accounted for????????????????????????????????

 

[Burnt State]

Trillions upon trillions will be spent, lost, misplaced and shuffled around by the uber-wealthy with or without UFO's. The elite, the world over and across time, have aways stolen, raped, ravaged & pillaged, and all have had giant sinkholes for our money to be sucked into. It's always been life as a serf, physically and psychologically. Deal, or be dealt.

 

[DissectionStalker]

How radical is it to look at co-creation when the very act of seeing implicates the seer? The shifting forms of the ufo across varying cultural eras seems to imply that something else is up and we're mixed up in it.

Well, the Humans see it and the PTB control the historical context, so whatever "it" is "out there" is not so important really. Why? We are ALWAYS the observer, and WE always report it back to others from our POV. Even if "it" transmits its "agenda" it's still reported back by the observer. So, in this respect, it IS ALWAYS in the mind of the observer whether seen by one or many the experience is either very similar or drastically different. The observer is ALWAYS the translation.

In that sense, Walter is exactly right that it really is no contest to have to prove anything about it to anyone else. The experience and its meaning IS unique to the observer.

 

[Constance]

Trillions upon trillions will be spent, lost, misplaced and shuffled around by the uber-wealthy with or without UFO's. The elite, the world over and across time, have aways stolen, raped, ravaged & pillaged, and all have had giant sinkholes for our money to be sucked into. It's always been life as a serf, physically and psychologically. Deal, or be dealt.

Here's the Auden poem on that painting and the Icarus myth. Click to enlarge it; it is so magnificent.

Auden, Musée des Beaux Arts

 

[DissectionStalker]

What you're evidently unaware of is the chaos, panic, and indecision into which the military and intelligence leaderships were thrown in 1947 and the general clusterfuck that ensued in their responses to the mass of sightings of unknown aerial phenomena.

IMO, that is part of the clusterphuck that a "need to know" agenda will ensue and create, when "the many" were purposely left out of the Human PSYOPS. That is EXACTLY what IS expected to happen when such campaigns are initiated. False Flags are Military Strategy and fact. Of course, many Generals and PTB and pilots and other witnesses will be convinced this is ET-UFO's or whatever else the considerations were meant to be. Even the USSR may have been targeted as part of this agenda.

I accept THE FACT ET UFO's were considered very real to the clusterphucked that could NEVER be "need to know". The PTB PSYOPS plan will NEVER work without the clusterphuck working! There were real advantages to involve the ET-UFO Mythology to help our military and intelligence and other agendas too!

Why can't you accept that explanation as a likely possibility too??? Do you deny American Humans were incapable of doing such things? Are you that naive to not consider that possibility too?

 

[dmanister]

DS wrote:

"In that sense, Walter is exactly right that it really is no contest to have to prove anything about it to anyone else. The experience and its meaning IS unique to the observer."

Cherishing one's own distortions and projections without curiosity about their objective reality is the very definition of solipsism. And that way lies madness.

 

[Walter Bosley]

DS wrote:

"In that sense, Walter is exactly right that it really is no contest to have to prove anything about it to anyone else. The experience and its meaning IS unique to the observer."

Cherishing one's own distortions and projections without curiosity about their objective reality is the very definition of solipsism. And that way lies madness.

Lighten up, Frances

'Distortions' and 'projections' are just your personal insulting buzzword responses to an experience you haven't and can't share (anymore than I can or should share yours). Why are my experiences less real just because you can't recreate them in a laboratory experiment or frame them in a long-winded pseudo-intellectual discourse in a forum? That's the very definition of populist collectivism and that way lies madness.

For the record, more than one of my 'distortions' and 'projections' have been experienced by others with me at the time who saw the same exact things and interpreted them -- independently -- the same way.

I generally refrain from derogatory commentary about participants here. You should try.

 

[DissectionStalker]

DS wrote:

"In that sense, Walter is exactly right that it really is no contest to have to prove anything about it to anyone else. The experience and its meaning IS unique to the observer."

Cherishing one's own distortions and projections without curiosity about their objective reality is the very definition of solipsism. And that way lies madness.

Excluding Walter from my commentary as follows, since he is writing books and producing movies about his investigations, etc. I have to say there is a radical subculture and community of ET UFO believers out there, and there are some real relationships to this phenomenon that can directly connect these Star People [All Powerful] Alien God believers to various religious or spiritual beliefs that are part of recorded history even in cliff and cave artwork too.

Many Humans are religious beings and have a spiritual life for a great majority of Humanity, and I don't think we can just dismiss this aspect that often uses intuition and the "gut feeling" and dreams and imagination and belief and other worldly communications that necessarily has to lead to brain abnormalities or madness. Being spiritually irrational is part of being Human too, and that is often quite perfectly normal behavior that we all experience.

You should check-out this podcast/radio network linked below and explore some of the wild beliefs people have about the Alien races and their ET UFO's from planet x, y, z. It really is fantastical, fanatical, and radical in many respects, so the reality is there are substantial fringe groups of followers that are really very "out there" and cult-like too, imo. I guess Scientology is proof there is a lot of money to be made in this type of religion too. It's too freaky to me, but the USA allows for radical religions to be protected by our fundamental laws. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these ET UFO fringe groups will organize as legalized religions to protect and enhance their ET goals to spread the Alien and UFO word. It seems inevitable to me. There's a lot of money to be made, imo.

Dark Matter Digital Network

 

[dmanister]

I'm happy if true believers organize as religions. In that case one would know that they are intolerant of being questioned and wouldn't run the risk of being flamed.

 

[Walter Bosley]

I'm happy if true believers organize as religions. In that case one would know that they are intolerant of being questioned and wouldn't run the risk of being flamed.

I agree with you about the charlatans stirring up the True Believers to make a buck. If I misunderstood what you said earlier, mea culpa. Perhaps I should have clarified a while ago that by choosing not to share certain experiences, I am also not trying to make money off of them. I could very well peddle my experiences in the 'industry' of the paranormnal etc by writing a book on all of it and it would probably be my bestseller and my smartest business move. However, I think that would be wrong so I'll stick to struggling and keep writing about other things. I think people should mostly take personal use from their experiences and resist the religionist wackos who want to exploit a very personal thing.

As regards experiences and data on a topic like UFOs, here's my breakdown: The 'unprovable' stuff should serve as a background verifier for the individual and a crumb on the trail to something that might be useful for public dissemination, i.e. material evidence, perhaps. In an investigation meant for ultimate presentation to a public audience, what should be drawn from personal experiences are the common denominators for analysis as part of the background of the particular investigation.

 

[dmanister]

I agree with you about the charlatans stirring up the True Believers to make a buck. If I misunderstood what you said earlier, mea culpa. Perhaps I should have clarified a while ago that by choosing not to share certain experiences, I am also not trying to make money off of them. I could very well peddle my experiences in the 'industry' of the paranormnal etc by writing a book on all of it and it would probably be my bestseller and my smartest business move. However, I think that would be wrong so I'll stick to struggling and keep writing about other things. I think people should mostly take personal use from their experiences and resist the religionist wackos who want to exploit a very personal thing.

As regards experiences and data on a topic like UFOs, here's my breakdown: The 'unprovable' stuff should serve as a background verifier for the individual and a crumb on the trail to something that might be useful for public dissemination, i.e. material evidence, perhaps. In an investigation meant for ultimate presentation to a public audience, what should be drawn from personal experiences are the common denominators for analysis as part of the background of the particular investigation.

You make some excellent points with which I completely agree. However, a personal experience is mot necessarily out of bounds for examination is it?

I had one close encounter with an unidentifiable craft some years ago. I can't honestly say if it was actually there, or if something in my mind projected it. But I would like to know.

Projections and distortions happen to perfectly sane and sober people all the time, and usually cause no problems. They are part of how our minds function.

But if a person has an experience that is troubling, it's worth questioning how much of it is purely subjective, isn't it? Why would anyone not examine whether their own mind created it because of some condition?

 

[Walter Bosley]

Everyone is making good points regarding trying to verify something. I guess I don't admit enough lately that I've actually given up on that. I honestly write my books knowing that a very small audience will be interested and am just as much motivated by wanting to get some ideas down in a tangible form before I quit writing or die or whatever. After relating the experience with the tower in Riverside (EOTW3:The Nameless Ones), I'm pretty much done writing about personal experiences with 'phenomena'. There's a bunch I haven't written about but it's really no big deal to me to go public with that stuff anymore. It doesn't change anything. I'll talk about what I've already discussed and written about, but not anything new or previously unshared for the precise reason we're all discussing this stuff relative to the topic: It's useless because it can't be verified.