July 5, 2015 — Ray Hernandez

[Gene Steinberg]

There's a difference between badgering and what Chris and I did, which was to question the use of the term "Extraterrestrial" in the group's name. As much as Ray explained the definition is broader, that presents a problem. The difference between The Paracast and the other shows is that we aren't afraid to ask questions, comfortable or not. It is not the same thing as badgering, and your definition does not apply.

 

[DissectionStalker]

I listened last night to Dr Rick Strassman interviewed by Sariya on Where Did the Road Go on the topic of DMT. I wasnt aware of the the conceptually strong overlay between many of the reported DMT experiences and the classic abduction recounting. Nor was I aware that Dr Strassman met informally with John Mack to compare notes on the simlarities.

Part 2 of the interview should be online soon.

One of the host's of this show talks about the electrical forces within him that he can not control, and it can cut the power off in electrical devices and the AC power to homes. This is a really wild story to listen to. He's convinced it is Kundalini forces that awakened in him at the age of 12. What is fascinating is this also has caused him to have all kinds of paranormal experiences with sound and visual effects, so this is a huge clue, imo, about some possible abnormalities within certain people that might be considered both a gift and nightmare combined.

Here is a link to that show:

 

[Burnt State]

Here’s a perspective from someone vaguely acquainted with the relevant way of doing science (surveys, depth interviews) that Hernandez was talking about: it may be a long time before a peer-reviewed academic journal will sign off on the kind of research he is talking about. Either he is a poor spokesperson or the project itself is deeply flawed from a methodological perspective.....

It's good to hear this kind of detailed response to this proposal. It seems that the first forays into abduction data collection research might only be considered, in the interim, as a case of it's better to do something than nothing. Let's say questions are not as leading or so UFO-centric, would you, Sue, still dismiss all the information collected by FREE or are any parts or features of the study salvageable? What did you think of Project Core's survey?

In my experience as a former academic there are two fundamental problems involved in provoking academic or scientific interest UFOs and their cognate phenomena. There’s an unwillingness to accept that there may be a problem that is not solvable per se and there’s an unwillingness to accept that a problem may require an explanation outside of the scientific framework. Those are real obstacles and they should not be minimized. What can be minimized is doing really bad research on the assumption that no one is going to notice or care.

Not all problems need appear solvable to be pursued passionately. Ufology is in need of more dedicated and willing participants who have access to better measuring instruments. I suppose without funding there is very little academic motivation. Operating outside of the scientific framework does stretch a lot of boundaries, especially funding models. There's just not enough rich billionaires around to fund paranormal research. Vallée noted in his Caipan workshop that having actual scientists participate in abduction studies i.e. medical doctors etc. is something that is critically lacking along with the fact that approaching the entire phenomenon from an ideological perspective gets you nowhere. That part of the discussion Hernandez did not understand, but this notion of starting from the position of "it must be extraterrestrial" is very limiting and clouds any notion of discovery.

Because this phenomena does interact with the perceiver in such a unique way there appears to be no real discipline that naturally lends itself to studying it. What are your recommendations, aside from a properly constructed sociological investigation, in terms of what kind of tools or disciplines would be best able to measure or investigate alien abduction syndrome?

 

[Burnt State]

If you havent sent them your short analysis, you probably should. Or let me

Given that Hernandez was so obstinate about the ET thing and that his own perspective is not only firmly made up, it exuded a kind of confidence that was simply not that interested in any rigorous, academic criticism. Organizations like FREE do not have an open minded agenda but are starting from the ETH and then proceed to offer support, counselling and theorizing about abduction by aliens - they participate, in their own way, in myth propagation as opposed to investigation. From there the leaps into pseudoscience unfold and you just can't stop that kind of runaway train. Since he's not here actually pursuing how his show was perceived I'd say send the critiques forward, just don't expect anyone to listen. There is a kind of fundamentalism there that is too difficult to shift let alone redefine. Such are the problems of starting with the ETH.

 

[Waller]

Given that Hernandez was so obstinate about the ET thing and that his own perspective is not only firmly made up, it exuded a kind of confidence that was simply not that interested in any rigorous, academic criticism. Organizations like FREE do not have an open minded agenda but are starting from the ETH

You don't get it, I doubt you ever will. We do not consider ET to be a hypotheses

and then proceed to offer support, counselling and theorizing about abduction by aliens

See above.

- they participate, in their own way, in myth propagation as opposed to investigation. From there the leaps into pseudoscience unfold and you just can't stop that kind of runaway train. Since he's not here actually pursuing how his show was perceived I'd say send the critiques forward, just don't expect anyone to listen. There is a kind of fundamentalism there that is too difficult to shift let alone redefine. Such are the problems of starting with the ETH.

lol

We have no problems but thanks for your ever-concerns.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

OK, so is ET a belief instead? Or do you believe it's an established fact? If you feel it's an established fact, please provide the evidence to indicate such? And not a process of elimination, or a claim from someone who reports they contacted ET.

 

[Waller]

It seems that the first forays into abduction data collection research might only be considered, in the interim, as a case of it's better to do something than nothing.

Yes, it's better to do something of great value rather than wax on endlessly on forums with the open-mindedness of a cataract diseased old dog.

 

[Waller]

OK, so is ET a belief instead? Or do you believe it's an established fact? If you feel it's an established fact, please provide the evidence to indicate such? And not a process of elimination, or a claim from someone who reports they contacted ET.

ET is a knowledge. Beliefs are for those who can't shuck off the encumbrances of their upbringing, societal pressures, parental invasions and everywhere else you are pre-programmed. Want facts? I have no idea what would be considered a fact for you or anyone else, do your own homework. Maybe you will find what you seek, maybe not, but I would check my signature first which will resolve your efforts if you come away empty-headed.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

ET is a knowledge? How so? It sounds contradictory.

 

[Waller]

ET is a knowledge? How so? It sounds contradictory.

Do you have to think or believe that you can walk across room? Or pick up a cup to drink? Of course not, you know that you can do those things; that is knowledge. If you have had the experience of ET and/or have done the research with an open mind, one that is unencumbered with old fashioned, out-of-date beliefs about the extraterrestrial community, then you might find yourself not only with the knowledge but a person-to-person encounter with the ET community.

You see, we come at this incarnation from polar opposite POV. I see this incarnation as one of an uncountable number of simultaneous existences. In this incarnation, I have knowledge of ET. You do not.

In other incarnations, the roles are reversed, this allows for us to have as many experiences as possible, seeing both ides of any circumstance, to better understand who we are, our Higher Self, and All That Is. It is not an elitist position, then, to say "I have, you do not" it is only a reflection of this incarnation into this physical dream that we have agreed to co-experience together.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

So you say you have knowledge of ET. That would imply you can prove UFOs are extraterrestrial, or you've had contact with ET.

I would also reject the statement that doing research with an open mind allows one to accept ET.

It sounds like an act of faith, rather than of knowledge or evidence.

 

[Waller]

So you say you have knowledge of ET.

I am stating that, yes, again, as I have before in this thread.

That would imply you can prove UFOs are extraterrestrial,

You made a quantum leap from one knowledge to supposition. I never stated that I could prove UFOs are extraterrestrial but I have knowledge that some are.

or you've had contact with ET.

Frequently. It's called listening to the ET channels and often during the OBE in and out of the dreamstate (spontaneous and self-initiated OBEs)

I would also reject the statement that doing research with an open mind allows one to accept ET. It sounds like an act of faith, rather than of knowledge or evidence.

Reject what you want. Call it what you want. All the choices are yours.

The easiest path, the one of least resistance, is to clear your head of all the garbage, the beliefs, that impose on you (pl). Others get there by more difficult routes, this is part of the themes that you and I have agreed prior to this incarnation. There are no mistakes.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Correction: You claim to have knowledge, but you appear to be unable to translate that into evidence one can actually evaluate. If you've had personal experiences, I can understand how that impacts your point of view. But even if you had an experience in which an entity claimed to be ET, that doesn't prove it was ET, or the actual cause for that matter. ET channels have similar problems, and often a lot of what they spout is sheer nonsense from any logical point of view. But that doesn't mean they don't believe something is happening to them.

 

[Waller]

Correction: You claim to have knowledge, but you appear to be unable to translate that into evidence one can actually evaluate. If you've had personal experiences, I can understand how that impacts your point of view. But even if you had an experience in which an entity claimed to be ET, that doesn't prove it was ET, or the actual cause for that matter. ET channels have similar problems, and often a lot of what they spout is sheer nonsense from any logical point of view. But that doesn't mean they don't believe something is happening to them.

Whatever you say, Gene, we are on so entirely different pages it is probable that there will be no agreement between us. But I can say this.

It was not that long ago, perhaps a decade or so, I was where you are. The difference is I took the steps, against my best judgment at the time, to actually investigate, hard time consuming research, in what I considered to be woo and junk. ET channeling, ET communications, the tie-in with the spirit community (and afterlife proponents).

You haven't, you most probably won't and that is your choice.

I chose otherwise.

Best of luck.

 

[Burnt State]

You don't get it, I doubt you ever will. We do not consider ET to be a hypotheses

Well for some people I understand that belief can be a very powerful thing. Some religious beliefs that apply automatic blind faith to the situation in order to prove the existence of their god or their alien. I find that to be not only problematic but also threatening to the well being of people as we've seen in the past through those whose alien beliefs led them out of their minds and into a Bo and Peep land of sheep where all that was "communicated" was accepted.

See above.

lol

We have no problems but thanks for your ever-concerns.

No, if you are actually treating people and confirming their alien abduction and drawing further conclusions and personal actions based on such beliefs without proof, then you are leading people astray and not providing them with the proper clinical care they need, if in fact that is what they need. Now, they might just need an ear to listen to them, some validation of their experience, and then your actions might not amount to so much of a big deal in terms of messing with their personal trajectories, but confirming that aliens are imparting knowledge to them based on their contact, is about individuals making up their own religions. Unless they have the capacity to actually confirm that the nature of the contact is one of a non-human intelligence then anything said without that fact is conjecture, speculation and belief at best. I have yet to hear any real example of such evidence outside of retold stories and tales of miraculous healings.

I hear more sensible perspectives from those who are deeply critical, even of their own experiences, as I am. Doubt is a handy thing when you live in a body that experiences reality virtually via remote sensory biological relay systems. Consequently, I can see how people can believe that they do in fact have contact from elsewhere, or are unaware of the one side of their brain communicating to the other, and leaving what appears to be a trail of evidence of contact. There have been some contact cases that have manifested in just such a way to provide a feeling of otherness about the nature of the contact and what has been written, but Hernandez, and what you've posted so far, has not done much by way of making convincing arguments for extraterrestrial contact.

 

[Burnt State]

I forgot to mention that even worse an action are those peoples and organizations who also promote alien contact and abduction amongst their own children or the children of abductees. It's one thing for adults to engage in the promotion of Alien Abduction Syndrome as a factual event, or one that is about properly tuning into the voices from above in order to act accordingly, but to promote this altered reality amongst children is where a line should get drawn. Who is the real boogeyman here?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Whatever you say, Gene, we are on so entirely different pages it is probable that there will be no agreement between us. But I can say this.

It was not that long ago, perhaps a decade or so, I was where you are. The difference is I took the steps, against my best judgment at the time, to actually investigate, hard time consuming research, in what I considered to be woo and junk. ET channeling, ET communications, the tie-in with the spirit community (and afterlife proponents).

You haven't, you most probably won't and that is your choice.

I chose otherwise.

Best of luck.

In other words, you believe what some people claim, but you have no evidence to offer that one can evaluate. There is no ET knowledge, since we have no evidence who and what ET is. We only have people who claim to have met up with beings who may or may not be ET. If they've had those experiences, it doesn't mean that they were caused by the interaction with an ET, even if the alleged being makes that claim. Why believe them?

You have no idea what I investigated and when, because you seem a little too close minded to consider additional possibilities.

 

[Waller]

Chris's badgering made this show difficult for me to listen to. Instead of the show showcasing the guest and his journey to get where he is with his investigations, I have to hear Chris's ARGUMENTS as to what is wrong with acronymns and the direction of investigation. One of the great things about Art Bell was his ability to be skeptical and empathetic at the same time. It's easy to cut someone to shreds with criticism. It's difficult to "lead them out" as it were, in an interview. I hear more about Chris, lately, in shows than the guest. It's sounding a lot like a combination of George Noory and Bill O'Reilly with an emphasis on O'Reilly!
As for the information exhumed from the show, I heard Hernandez do three things: First, he provided first hand examples of his own experiences; second, he described a GROUP EFFORT to MEASURE phenomenon, and finally, be FORCED to defend everything from acronymns to how FREE was conducting their business.
Really Chris? Let the man speak and try to draw out what they are doing.
By the way, how is your camera thing going? Did you get your idea from the PARANORMAL franchise?

O'Brien was over the top, imo, and to use the excuse that it was "asking tuff questions that no one else will ask" is simply that, an excuse. It would have been much cleaner to have admitted that attempting to bully guests is excellent entertainment, that, at least, I could have a modicum of respect for.

I can tell you this. Ray Hernandez may not be the mst eloquent spokesman for FREE but he is not the least bit concerned or surprised at the engagement. It comes with the territory, ideas that challenge the norm are always, at first, ridiculed before accepted.

I believe that I could say with a high degree of probability that this true of all the Board Members, all the participants in FREE including the experiencers. We do not have the most comforting or socially acceptable positions to uphold but the alternative is so much less palatable.

Being dishonest for the sake of gaining some kind of temporary societal acceptance doesn't work. Only being yourself, telling what you know is true, and letting the pseodoskeptics, the cynics and those who spend little to no time in the honest pursuit of the ET experience, the ET communications, let them do as they please.

That is their choice, we have made ours, sadly, we allow those who disagree with us the right to do so, very few of those who disagree honor us in the same manner.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

You got this totally confused. Chris and I questioned the use of the word "Extraterrestrial" in the name of the organization, since Hernandez admits the board doesn't necessarily believe these experiences involve extraterrestrials. He also explained why in detail.

You should have paid more attention to the words and the discussion, but evidently you didn't get the memo.

 

[Creepy Green Light]

This will help me size up Waller; does Waller believe in the Linda Cortile case?