trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
QualiaSoup makes another excellent video.
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Lack of belief in gods
- Thread starter trainedobserver
- Start date
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The video oversimplifies the Biblical God. The view that God is all-powerful and perfect is a Christian one, and originated in Greek philosophy rather than the Hebrew Bible. The idea that religion is primarily about belief is also Christian. Traditional Judaism and Islam are more religions of practice, requiring observance of certain customs but little in the way of theology. I'm not quarreling with what the narrator says about atheism, but his view of theism needs to be more informed.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Thanks for the post. He has a great way of explaining things, and I do think that his view of theism is well informed, although NTS does bring up good points. A funny thing is, non-religious people usually know more about religion that religious people do.
tyder001
Paranormal Adept
Sadly, that's the truth. I think some of it (maybe all) comes from the "religous" dogama. For instance I have had more "problems" from very religous people about what I believe than from agnostics. I have been accused of witchcraft and heresy (guilty I'm sure on the heresy part) NTS is indeed correct and I agree with his points that the video oversimplifies. However, I also agree with Angel that non believers do indeed have a better grasp on the "religion" basics than true belivers do.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Tyder, I think that most ultra-religious people would classify you as a heretic because from what I've learned from you on this forum, your concept of a god is nothing like theirs.
tyder001
Paranormal Adept
You should have been in Colorado when a "conservative" type thinker looked at me like I was an E.T. It was "You are from Alabama?" Wait a minute, then you "have" to believe the bible without reservation. Again, it was the ole "hollywood" version of southerners and a "real" person from that region just didn't quite "add up" to the sterotype. (altough some do.)
But, yeah you are right Angel. I have my own "hard won" journey and I don't "push" it on anybody. But, I do protect it(as I guess we all do.) I'm learning (just from this board) that people are all on a journey and we all have our "mindsets." But, at least we can discuss them here and except for a few cranks we manage pretty well.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
You should have been in Colorado when a "conservative" type thinker looked at me like I was an E.T. It was "You are from Alabama?" Wait a minute, then you "have" to believe the bible without reservation. Again, it was the ole "hollywood" version of southerners and a "real" person from that region just didn't quite "add up" to the sterotype. (altough some do.)
I'm sure some people view me as a crank sometimes!
tyder001
Paranormal Adept
I never think of you as a "crank." We disagree on some things but crank? You don't "name call" or cuss (southern for curse) You don't "stalk" every post just to get an "aha" moment. No, your not a crank. Wrong maybe
but not a crank.
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
I never think of you as a "crank." We disagree on some things but crank? You don't "name call" or cuss (southern for curse) You don't "stalk" every post just to get an "aha" moment. No, your not a crank. Wrong maybe
I never have a problem saying that I could be wrong about everything I say.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I understand what you are getting at I think, but it could be argued that belief is necessary or at least expected as the motivation for carrying out a religious practice that the participant views as more than just a social exercise. Also, depending on what sect or branch of Christianity you are looking at determines the amount of belief to practice viewed as necessary.
The video does an exemplary job of communicating what "a lack of belief" is all about.
---------- Post added at 12:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------
So are you ready to admit that you've been abducted by aliens yet? I read your "sleep paralysis" post. Dude ... you have so been abducted.
(I'm joking of course)
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
I understand what you are getting at I think, but it could be argued that belief is necessary or at least expected as the motivation for carrying out a religious practice that the participant views as more than just a social exercise. Also, depending on what sect or branch of Christianity you are looking at determines the amount of belief to practice viewed as necessary.
The video does an exemplary job of communicating what "a lack of belief" is all about.
---------- Post added at 12:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 AM ----------
So are you ready to admit that you've been abducted by aliens yet? I read your "sleep paralysis" post. Dude ... you have so been abducted.
Okay, you got me there!
Martina
Skilled Investigator
You should have been in Colorado when a "conservative" type thinker looked at me like I was an E.T. It was "You are from Alabama?" Wait a minute, then you "have" to believe the bible without reservation. Again, it was the ole "hollywood" version of southerners and a "real" person from that region just didn't quite "add up" to the sterotype. (altough some do.)
I lived in Alabama for the last two and a half years, and I know what you mean. I kept my religion to myself there so as not to be condemned as a blasphemer or burned at the stake as a heretic. I knew full well that my beliefs would not be well received there.
I tried attending a couple of the churches there around Lincoln and Ohatchee, but found them to be a most unsatisfying experience and totally devoid of anything like spiritual fellowship. They were all about dogma, and the same old hymns, rituals, forms and sermons all the time. Not my kind of religion at all, and none of them actually practiced what was preached, in fact if you tried to talk religion with them at all they got irritated and withdrew, changed the subject, or just ignored you.
These were the "devout" Southern Baptists....
I like the explanation of atheism. "Lack of belief" makes a lot more sense than "disbelief". I am guilty and often accuse the atheists of just this. That they believe that a god doesn't exist and therefore hold a belief system just as theists do. This video is the first I've ever heard that counters the typical definition.
But if you look up definitions of "atheist" , ... thats what you find, ... "denial of god or gods", "belief that god does not exist", "disbelief in a diety or supernatural", etc, etc, etc. No wonder it is so confusing. And now I have to wonder what would happen if I could ask a question to 1000 atheists: what does atheism mean?? I have a feeling that a large percentage would answer "belief that god doesn't exist". Am I wrong here??
I mean, I suppose atheists could be just as blinded as the believers right??
But if you look up definitions of "atheist" , ... thats what you find, ... "denial of god or gods", "belief that god does not exist", "disbelief in a diety or supernatural", etc, etc, etc. No wonder it is so confusing. And now I have to wonder what would happen if I could ask a question to 1000 atheists: what does atheism mean?? I have a feeling that a large percentage would answer "belief that god doesn't exist". Am I wrong here??
I mean, I suppose atheists could be just as blinded as the believers right??
Angel of Ioren
Friendly Skeptic
Basically think of it this way, regardless of which god you believe in, ask yourself how you feel about other gods, say for example Thor or Zeus. Well, that's how atheists feel about all gods, including the one that most current mono-theistic religions worship.
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
I think it depends greatly on the atheist and their experience discussing the matter. Oddly enough, not everyone on the planet has given it a great deal of thought. The "lack of belief" is something that requires no consideration whatsoever. Ah-heh. That was supposed to be funny. (dead silence) OK...
bbridges
Paranormal Maven
When and how does one wake up in the Matrix? And once awake, what does one 'wake up' to next? ...and exactly who or what is waking up? What does "I am that I am" mean? If a color-say, magenta, is described to a blind from birth person, what does that person do with the description?
trainedobserver
Paranormally Disenchanted
Shaaaa-tang! (bowing motions)
exo_doc
Foolish Earthling
I grew up a very faithful Christian, but as I got older, especially when I traveled the world in the Army, I started asking questions. That led me to actually read the Bible, not as a holy text, but as a book. I couldn't beleive the things I'd swallowed for all that time. So now, I guess I'm not an atheist, but I don't know what to call myself. Searcher maybe? I think there is an order to the universe, but sky guy on a cloud? Nope, don't think so.
Martina
Skilled Investigator
You have run into the same thing I did back in my 20's. I was really searching for what was the truth, and I did not find it in conventional Christianity, in fact the more I examined and questioned it the more alienated from it I became. I ended up being quite the bitter little atheist for a while there, and my patron philosopher was Bertrand Russell, who took the Christian dogmas apart quite expertly.
You must remember that the Bible is the writings of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. It is NOT the literal word of God as some insist out of their need for absolute certainty. The book of Judges, for instance, was written by the tribal sheiks of the tribes that migrated out of Egypt escaping from pharaoh Ramses.
It is very important to understand that religion, and the mortal concept of God has been evolving and growing over the ages, and the concept of God in much of the Bible is that of primitive tribesmen in the Old Testament, which should be regarded as more of a historical allegory than a guide by which to live. It reflects the values and beliefs of people living in the distant past whose concept of the Father in Heaven is a most primitive one.
For these reasons we cannot base our faith on the Bible as the word of God, for it is not. It does contain much of spiritual value and valuable lessons and teachings, particularly at the point where Jesus comes into the mix. You may note that the teachings of Jesus are of a much different character than earlier writings, especially in the Old Testament.
His message was in the main, the Fatherhood of God, and the brotherhood of all mankind. If you keep to that you are better off than you will be mired in all the doctrine and dogma of the fossilized churches of what is called Christianity, which is in general a religion built up around the person of Jesus, his death, and resurrection, rather than around what he actually taught. That is to say, Christianity as we know it glorifies the teacher at the expense of his teachings.