Lack of belief in gods

[Angel of Ioren]

You have run into the same thing I did back in my 20's. I was really searching for what was the truth, and I did not find it in conventional Christianity, in fact the more I examined and questioned it the more alienated from it I became. I ended up being quite the bitter little atheist for a while there, and my patron philosopher was Bertrand Russell, who took the Christian dogmas apart quite expertly.

You must remember that the Bible is the writings of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. It is NOT the literal word of God as some insist out of their need for absolute certainty. The book of Judges, for instance, was written by the tribal sheiks of the tribes that migrated out of Egypt escaping from pharaoh Ramses.

It is very important to understand that religion, and the mortal concept of God has been evolving and growing over the ages, and the concept of God in much of the Bible is that of primitive tribesmen in the Old Testament, which should be regarded as more of a historical allegory than a guide by which to live. It reflects the values and beliefs of people living in the distant past whose concept of the Father in Heaven is a most primitive one.

For these reasons we cannot base our faith on the Bible as the word of God, for it is not. It does contain much of spiritual value and valuable lessons and teachings, particularly at the point where Jesus comes into the mix. You may note that the teachings of Jesus are of a much different character than earlier writings, especially in the Old Testament.

His message was in the main, the Fatherhood of God, and the brotherhood of all mankind. If you keep to that you are better off than you will be mired in all the doctrine and dogma of the fossilized churches of what is called Christianity, which is in general a religion built up around the person of Jesus, his death, and resurrection, rather than around what he actually taught. That is to say, Christianity as we know it glorifies the teacher at the expense of his teachings.

Well said.
I've heard many people say that if one were to actually read the bible, he or she would no longer think about Christianity in the same way.

 

[tyder001]

Well said.
I've heard many people say that if one were to actually read the bible, he or she would no longer think about Christianity in the same way.


That was/is true in my case. After actually reading it I came to some of the same conclusions Martina stated. I seemed to have gotten a different "take" on the scripture than Jerry Falwell had and yet we had both "read" the bible. I call myself a "Christian" Agnostic these days. No, it doesn't make sense in a literal way. But, to me the concept of "Love your nieghbor as yourself" Which acually means (imo) to honor and understand that the feelings of another person are just as valuable and important as your own is a wonderful concept. Most of us live (me included) as if other people are just bit players in "our" movie. So "Christ" as the incarnation of God (as am I and you) fits my inner life. But, Buddism works for some and atheism works for some and other ism's work for others. Lets face it. The most devout Christian or the most cynical atheist or the most serene Buddist doesn't truly know what happens to our consiuness at death. I have come to "symphatise" with the concept of Reincarnation but I don't know. I heard a radio interview with a Neuro Surgeion. He was of the "it's all in the brain" camp. But he was also very open to the concept that he didn't "know" and nobody could know this side of death. It was very intersting to hear somebody who has a different "wordview" than mine be able to explain why he felt what he felt without resorting to name calling and absolute statements. "I" found (of course) some holes in his "logic" and I know he would find some in mine. But, it's the people who think they already know the ultimate meaning of life that are obnoxious. Some of us are still searching.

 

[Martina]

Well thank you for that Tyder. For my part I prefer to keep my beliefs to myself for the most part as I'm not at all interested in pushing them on anyone else, or in being sucked into a debate about them. In a very general way I will say that I like to keep it simple and concentrate on the fatherhood of God, and the brotherhood of all mankind. For me everything else proceeds out of that. For those who know God as their spiritual father no debate is necessary, or at all productive for that matter.

 

[trainedobserver]

Rhetorical questions follow:
What are gods anyway? How do you tell from the over 3500 gods that mankind has which one(s) are real, if any, and which are products of the human imagination? How do you do due diligence in examining each claim to godhood? If gods do really exist are they worthy of worship (what is worship?), veneration, or even acknowledgment by us based on their (alleged) often hideous and inhuman behavior?

 

[Martina]

Rhetorical questions follow:
What are gods anyway? How do you tell from the over 3500 gods that mankind has which one(s) are real, if any, and which are products of the human imagination? How do you do due diligence in examining each claim to godhood? If gods do really exist are they worthy of worship (what is worship?), veneration, or even acknowledgment by us based on their (alleged) often hideous and inhuman behavior?

Your question is a very good one and deserves a thoughtful and well reasoned reply, which I wish to invest some time in before responding. It's a very big question, and cannot be answered simplistically.

 

[CapnG]

So now, I guess I'm not an atheist, but I don't know what to call myself. Searcher maybe? I think there is an order to the universe, but sky guy on a cloud? Nope, don't think so.

I abandoned my faith at 15. It took me a while to figure out what my own thoughts on the matter were and I currently classify myself as an "agnostic deist". I prefer to think the universe has (or had) some form of intelligence behind it's intial creation but I fully accept that I have no evidence to back that up and I am by no means certain of it, it's merely a preference.

What I am certain of though is that EVERY religion is wrong. That all of them are nothing more than artificial constructs built on superstition and ritualistic behaviours, designed by men to control other men.

I've heard many people say that if one were to actually read the bible, he or she would no longer think about Christianity in the same way.

I say that to someone roughly once a week. Well, what I usually say is that "the quickest way to seperate someone from the belief that the Bible is the litreal word of God is to force them to actually read it" but close enough.

 

[dyingsun]

How about one 'cherry-picks' the things one likes about a particular religion ?

 

[bbridges]

I grew up a very faithful Christian, but as I got older, especially when I traveled the world in the Army, I started asking questions. That led me to actually read the Bible, not as a holy text, but as a book. I couldn't beleive the things I'd swallowed for all that time. So now, I guess I'm not an atheist, but I don't know what to call myself. Searcher maybe? I think there is an order to the universe, but sky guy on a cloud? Nope, don't think so.

From my experience, some meditation practices done consistently holding the right intention can lead to an altered state of awareness and perception that encourages the practitioner to persist in the pursuit.
It wasn't, however, until I asked the right teacher-in my case an Ananda Marga 'self-realized master'that I sought out in Northern California and asked for help that I began to experience breakthroughs and experience fully conscious and stable states of what I can only feebly attempt to describe-our language limitations make it impossible-poets and mystics and some musicians are the only ones who even try-as 'expanded 'or 'transcendant.'
It is both intensely personal and at the same time impersonal. It is mental and physical and emotional and there whether you are or not. It is always right there-how could I have missed it!? and then it leaves-or rather slips away...I am at peace and bereft at the same time. iI is beyond magnificent and totally ordinary within itself. IT is exquisitely tender, vulnerable, and kind like a baby's smile, yet strong as steel. It is the purest stream of clear light-soooo beautiful it hurts my heart and cracks it into grateful shards.
And when I leave-it would NEVER leave me-I am grateful, full, and totally shamed for leaving It-alone. I'm obviously no poet, but there is my limped excruciatng, prosaic muttering that I think many others throughout time have visited and tried to share in a thousand ways without coming close even once. Is this what we are and cannot ,or do not, or will not embrace and instead objectify as 'God?' Richard

 

[NTS]

"the quickest way to separate someone from the belief that the Bible is the literal word of God is to force them to actually read it"

For the sake of argument, take the Bible as the Word of God. So maybe God's not as simple as some people say He is. Maybe he doesn't want His Word to have a straightforward interpretation. Maybe He wants to see what we'll do with it. Maybe He's like a cosmic Shakespeare and writes things that convey different meanings to different people.

Or maybe it's a bunch of stories by a lot of authors, each of whom had their own agenda, somewhat arbitrarily and raggedly slammed together into a single book.

None of that makes the Bible wrong or unimportant. It just means that (like a lot of books) it's not (or not just) what many of us think it is.

 

[CapnG]

None of that makes the Bible wrong or unimportant. It just means that (like a lot of books) it's not (or not just) what many of us think it is.

I didn't say it was unimportant. Historically speaking, it's a tremendously important piece of work. But then again so is Mein Kampf. Importance doesn't always equate to an inherent positive value.

As for it being "wrong", well that in itself is a largely subjective claim but I would put it to you that the Bible endorses things which are decidedly not good. Slavery for instance. Ritual mutilation, the beating and even stoning to death of children come to mind as well. Incest under certain circumstances also comes up once or twice. Ick.

This is not to say there aren't some good points in the Bible too but as Christopher Hitchens points out in his lectures none of the good points in the book (aiding the sick, feeding the hungry, loving your neighbour, etc) require a religious construct or a god, whereas all of the bad points (sinning, pennance, going to hell, etc) do.

The reality of the Bible is simply this: It was not "written" by god, it was written by men. Lots of men, over a looooong ass period of time. It's a collection of quasi-historical anecdotes, philospohical ramblings and hebrew fairy-tales, lumped together, paired down and codified by the council of Nicea and declared sacrosanct. All other thoughts and writings were declared apocrypha and heretical and to even mention them in public could lead to imprisonment, torture and death (also interestingly enough, in public).

If that doesn't sound like the work of humans and humans alone I don't know what else could persuade you.

 

[tyder001]

These are the kinds of conversations that will go on and on until it just wears out somebody or gets somebody mad. Truth is the bible has much wisdom and much political and silly stuff in it. It's not "one" book. However, most people have managed to find peace and hope and "most" and certainly "all" mainstream Christian organizations have managed to keep the "feed the hungry" and "Do unto Ohters" without stoning women and children. Also, "religion" both Christianity and Islam and others are also responsible for much of the learning and advancement of civilization. Censorship? Oh yeah! Oppression? Oh yeah! But, as a person who works in Social Services I could also tell you stories of how they paid for a family to keep their heat on last winter. Fed families and donated clothing and toys to children. Paid dental bills and power bills and for trips to the doctor. I could tell you of an "alternative lifestyle" couple who find grest comfort in their faith. True they have to go to "certain" churchs t pratice it (the Christian church) has a lot of growing up to do. But, it's not all bad. Fact is I have found some great comfort in the bible. But, no it isn't the "word" of god for all ages and forever. But, the word of God is in there. (imo) but it's also in me and you and Budda and even in Christopher Hitchens (Lord the man's dying so he might not appreciate that last comment.) But, then again we are all terminal just at different degrees. I am a "weird" person I guess because I'm not offended by religion. I been there, done that and got the t-shirt! I still find comfort in my "faith" although I'm not a "praticing" church going or mosque going or temple going person. As for "moral" stuff not needing religion I would agree to an extent. But, the impulse that a person is more than a brain fart or more than a machine does cause us to view each being as important unto themselves. We squash a but and feel no guilt. But, we kill a human and even if we get away with it we are eaten up (unless we are completely sociopathic) until the day we die. Yet, if there is no meaning then it's no more "evil" to kill a human than it is a bug. Explain God? Never. Can't be done. At least I can't do it. But, I can't actually point out Natural selection or give you a "slice" of love or hate. I can't honestly pick up and hand you a thought or explain how I just "knew" that I needed to be at the store that day to run into "her." But, I did! Life is a very complex and wonderful and tragic experience. Is it all there is? Yeah, because there is no "nothing." IMO, it's all one eternal moment and birth and death and birth and death and birth and death until we "wake up." But, even that is just babble because I know what I "feel" and what I intuit but I don't always know how to put it into words. I think the bible does contain one great explanation of God. Moses asked "Who are you?" The answer: "I AM." somehow that works for me. Who's god? I AM!

 

[trainedobserver]

From my experience, some meditation practices done consistently holding the right intention can lead to an altered state of awareness and perception ...

My experiments or attempts at achieving some ultimate state of awareness (or however you want to express it) have been unsuccessful. I have certainly achieved altered states but some of those were more indicative of 'disassociated' states than anything. Your problems articulating the experience is entirely understandable given that a truly transcendent state would put you outside of the human experience and therefore that 'experience' is untranslatable by its very nature upon your return.

---------- Post added at 08:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 AM ----------

... I would put it to you that the Bible endorses things which are decidedly not good. Slavery for instance. Ritual mutilation, the beating and even stoning to death of children come to mind as well. Incest under certain circumstances also comes up once or twice. ... If that doesn't sound like the work of humans and humans alone I don't know what else could persuade you.

I am often dismayed and a little put out by people want to sing the praises of the Bible and the angry, jealous, tribal god it talks about. They undoubtedly have never read the damn thing for themselves. In my over 30s years as a Christian both studying and teaching from it I ran into countless faithful "church folk" whose only understanding of it was second hand. And outside of the church many self-styled spiritual types love to give it flowery adulation extracting the bits that suit their sensibilities while simultaneously ignoring the hideous brutality and monumental ignorance displayed therein. It's mind boggling at times.

---------- Post added at 08:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ----------

Explain God? Never. Can't be done. At least I can't do it.

I would imagine that such an insight causes you to empathize and sympathize with those like myself who find the whole business untenable then. It would also seem such an understanding on your part would cause you to applaud atheists and agnostics for their personal honesty and integrity in refusing to believe or place faith in the inexplicable and incomprehensible. Am I right?

 

[bbridges]

These are the kinds of conversations that will go on and on until it just wears out somebody or gets somebody mad. Truth is the bible has much wisdom and much political and silly stuff in it. It's not "one" book. However, most people have managed to find peace and hope and "most" and certainly "all" mainstream Christian organizations have managed to keep the "feed the hungry" and "Do unto Ohters" without stoning women and children. Also, "religion" both Christianity and Islam and others are also responsible for much of the learning and advancement of civilization. Censorship? Oh yeah! Oppression? Oh yeah! But, as a person who works in Social Services I could also tell you stories of how they paid for a family to keep their heat on last winter. Fed families and donated clothing and toys to children. Paid dental bills and power bills and for trips to the doctor. I could tell you of an "alternative lifestyle" couple who find grest comfort in their faith. True they have to go to "certain" churchs t pratice it (the Christian church) has a lot of growing up to do. But, it's not all bad. Fact is I have found some great comfort in the bible. But, no it isn't the "word" of god for all ages and forever. But, the word of God is in there. (imo) but it's also in me and you and Budda and even in Christopher Hitchens (Lord the man's dying so he might not appreciate that last comment.) But, then again we are all terminal just at different degrees. I am a "weird" person I guess because I'm not offended by religion. I been there, done that and got the t-shirt! I still find comfort in my "faith" although I'm not a "praticing" church going or mosque going or temple going person. As for "moral" stuff not needing religion I would agree to an extent. But, the impulse that a person is more than a brain fart or more than a machine does cause us to view each being as important unto themselves. We squash a but and feel no guilt. But, we kill a human and even if we get away with it we are eaten up (unless we are completely sociopathic) until the day we die. Yet, if there is no meaning then it's no more "evil" to kill a human than it is a bug. Explain God? Never. Can't be done. At least I can't do it. But, I can't actually point out Natural selection or give you a "slice" of love or hate. I can't honestly pick up and hand you a thought or explain how I just "knew" that I needed to be at the store that day to run into "her." But, I did! Life is a very complex and wonderful and tragic experience. Is it all there is? Yeah, because there is no "nothing." IMO, it's all one eternal moment and birth and death and birth and death and birth and death until we "wake up." But, even that is just babble because I know what I "feel" and what I intuit but I don't always know how to put it into words. I think the bible does contain one great explanation of God. Moses asked "Who are you?" The answer: "I AM." somehow that works for me. Who's god? I AM!

WOW! I wish I had written that...or maybe 'I' did? Arghhh. What's for lunch? Namaste...Richard