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Listener Round Table

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Jeff, I hear George Noory saw something quite insightful the other day. He was remarking to Jaques Vallee that he had seen an advert asking for applicants to be astronauts. His point was that back in the day, a tremendous number of young boys (and girls) dreamed of growing up to be an astronaut - I certainly did. And now it's just not seen as such a big deal and it's lost the glamour etc.
In the 60's, the astronauts were 100% megastars and rightfully so. To be among the first people to go into orbit/moon etc was an enormous privilege. Unfortunately, with the public, the position of an astronaut in society has been downgraded a lot and that's a shame, cos it is no doubt an excellent indicator of a general interest in continuing with the space-exploration dream. If we stall on that dream, it will only make the amazing future for us that I have dreamt of, be so much farther in the future. We need to keep experimenting with technology with a view to propulsion and long-term missions for man and how to help the human physiology cope with this alien (ba-doosh) environment.

Phew, bit of a lecture that wasn't it?:p
 
I'm not dismissing the conversation, I'm simply saying that, perhaps, HERE is not the place to discuss global warming. As UFOlogy pointed out, there more topics covered in the program, far more related to paranormal phenomenon. I'm all for debating the global warming topic, just not here. Perhaps an environmental form, or in the General Discussions thread of this same form? Wanting to stay on topic is not out of bounds at all.
We are on topic. Agenda 21 opened the door for the environmental discussion here.
learn more about Agenda 21 here: DEMOCRATS  AGAINST  U. N.  AGENDA  21 - OK, So what is Agenda 21? And why should I care? Part 1
 
Very good work and extremely insightful, UFOlogy ... Over the last year or so I've gotten quite a bit more skeptical and embittered about the whole thing (as researchers are prone to do) but I may get over that hump ... Unfortunately we, as a culture, have lost sight of that, and even semi-decent scifi movies aren't having the same effect about pushing our culture back into exploration mode, I think.

Thanks for the kind words Jeff, and don't let the challenges get you down. There are so many interesting angles that I think your natural curiosity about it will keep you interested in the stuff that really matters. In the past I've found that ghost hunter types are really set in their paradigms as to what they think the phenomena is. But getting to know you here, I think your approach is very refreshing and the field needs more people like you who are open to a variety of possibilities. We're both convinced that ghostly phenomena goes beyond the usual misperceptions and hoaxes, and if my pet theory has any merit, there is some really valuable material evidence out there just waiting to be found; we just need to know how and what and where to look for it.
 
Jeff, I hear George Noory saw something quite insightful the other day. He was remarking to Jaques Vallee that he had seen an advert asking for applicants to be astronauts. His point was that back in the day, a tremendous number of young boys (and girls) dreamed of growing up to be an astronaut - I certainly did. And now it's just not seen as such a big deal and it's lost the glamour etc.
In the 60's, the astronauts were 100% megastars and rightfully so. To be among the first people to go into orbit/moon etc was an enormous privilege. Unfortunately, with the public, the position of an astronaut in society has been downgraded a lot and that's a shame, cos it is no doubt an excellent indicator of a general interest in continuing with the space-exploration dream. If we stall on that dream, it will only make the amazing future for us that I have dreamt of, be so much farther in the future. We need to keep experimenting with technology with a view to propulsion and long-term missions for man and how to help the human physiology cope with this alien (ba-doosh) environment.

Phew, bit of a lecture that wasn't it?:p


When I was growing up I wanted nothing more than to be an astronaut.....preferably one like Steve Austin (The Six Million Dollar Man) with bionic parts and super strength. He was my childhood hero.
But I agree with you Goggs, being an astronaut isn't glamorous anymore and no one seems to care anymore.
I'd still love to be an astronaut. If I was offerred a one way trip to Mars, I couldn't turn it down. I love my wife and kids, but I'd have to be selfish as hell and go for it. (Or maybe I'm saying that because I know I'll never really be picked to go.....who knows.)
 
Yeah I always said that if I reached retirement age and I'd finished paying a mortgage on a house, that I would gladly sell it and spend the lot on just one trip in the shuttle. Not a shadow of a doubt about it either. Can you imagine lift-off, weightlessness and the cream of the crop - seeing something like a whole continent at once. I would not move from the windows. And at night, looking down at places like the eastern seaboard of the US, with all the lights of civilisation, contrasted with the very dark parts of the large deserts and jungles. Wow. Wow squared.
 
We are on topic. Agenda 21 opened the door for the environmental

No, the topic is whether or not Werner Boch was targeted by the government under the pretense of Agenda 21. The idea that "big brother" would institute national policies, such as Agenda 21, for the sole purpose of targeting individual citizens, which is what Werner implied, goes straight into the conspiracy nut basket. The caveat was to explain what Agenda 21 was, but that's a side bar to the real topic; is Werner being targeted by the government with Agenda 21 as the tool. The answer, quite clearly, is 'no', an that's where the subject of Agenda 21 loses it's validity, here. Environmentalism has little-to-nothing to do with paranormal phenomenon....which is the purpose of this forum.
 
No, the topic is whether or not Werner Boch was targeted by the government under the pretense of Agenda 21. The idea that "big brother" would institute national policies, such as Agenda 21, for the sole purpose of targeting individual citizens, which is what Werner implied, goes straight into the conspiracy nut basket. The caveat was to explain what Agenda 21 was, but that's a side bar to the real topic; is Werner being targeted by the government with Agenda 21 as the tool. The answer, quite clearly, is 'no', an that's where the subject of Agenda 21 loses it's validity, here. Environmentalism has little-to-nothing to do with paranormal phenomenon....which is the purpose of this forum.
Is Agenda 21 targeting, individual citizens... indirectly yes it is.... individual communities? yes most certainly. People need to wake up real fast to Agenda 21/ICLEI/sustainability movements. This forum has places to discuss environmentalism and I have no problem moving any further discussion there.
 
Can you imagine lift-off, weightlessness and the cream of the crop - seeing something like a whole continent at once. I would not move from the windows. And at night, looking down at places like the eastern seaboard of the US, with all the lights of civilisation, contrasted with the very dark parts of the large deserts and jungles. Wow. Wow squared.

I always thought that seeing that first "earth rise" photo would change global consciousness. I love seeing these images of earth from space that all the astronauts have earned for us. But we're still busy pissing on each other and on our planet. We've toxified it, polluted our own bodies and make things go extinct everyday. We've burnt the lungs of the planet through deforestation because of our irresponsible gluttony and greed. The promise of wisdom and leadership through space travel has yet become part of our belief system as humanoids. No wonder the aliens won't talk to us - we're inferior and dangerous.

And that, ladies and germs, is the connection between enviro talk and the listener roundtable!
 
Everyday for millions of years things have gone extinct with no human influence. We are just as much a part of nature as any living thing here now and before us, we have a right to be here and some day we will go extinct as well. When we are gone the climate will continue to change, there will be global warming, global cooling, the tectonic plates will continue to move, continents will collide, volcanic eruptions, hurricanes, floods, wild fires, etc will all continue to happen even with no humans around. Please do not demonize humans, aside from our obvious problems we are still pretty cool life forms.
 
and if you go back thousands of years you will see it is perfectly normal for polar ice caps to grow and shrink and temps to get warmer and colder... but we need to demonize humans and talk about shrinking polar bear populations... oh wait... polar bear populations are not shrinking either... nor would we even have polar bears if not for climate change.... and Al Gore has made his bank account very very green.
 
Yeah, what warms up cools off -- it goes up & down...let's hope it doesn't go sideways...

Record Ice Growth at the Pole 2012-13

Record Arctic Ice Growth In 2012-2013

January 30, 2013by stevengoddard
Arctic ice area growth since mid-September has shattered the previous record, growing
175,000 Manhattans of new ice over the last four months.

Well I thought I made my last post but, once again, you have to consider the source for this claim, because NOAA doesn't agree.

NH Snow Cover Extent

Snow Extent data were provided by the Global Snow Laboratory, Rutgers University. Period of record is 1966-2012 (47 years).

Northern Hemisphere Winter
Snow Cover Extent plot
The timeseries to the right shows the mean Northern Hemisphere snow cover extent for winter (December-February) from 1967 through 2012. During the three month season in 2011/12, the Northern Hemisphere experienced its 14th largest (33rd smallest) snow cover extent on record at 590,000 square km (228,000 square miles) above the average of 45.2 million square km (17.5 million square miles). Northern Hemisphere winter snow cover extent has only changed slightly in the 47-year record, with a seasonal increase of about 0.1 percent per decade. By the spring season (March-May), the Northern Hemisphere snow cover extent contracted to a below-average extent for the time of year. The seasonal snow cover extent was 1.9 million square km (734,000 square miles) below the long-term average and ranked as the sixth smallest seasonal extent on record. Spring snow cover for the Northern Hemisphere is decreasing at an approximate rate of 2.2 percent per decade. More information on individual global snow and ice events during 2012 can be found in the Global Hazards report

North America Winter
Snow Cover Extent plot
Across North America during the 2011/12 winter, snow was limited, and the seasonal snowfall extent was the fourth smallest on record for the continent at 630,000 square km (243,000 square miles) below the average of 17.2 million square km (6.6 million square miles). This was the smallest winter snow cover extent since the winter of 1999/2000 and in stark contrast to the past two winter seasons, 2009/10 and 2010/11, which had the largest and third largest snow extents, respectively. The below-average snow cover extent for North America continued into spring. The spring snow extent for North America was 930,000 square km (359,000 square miles) below average and the third smallest value on record. For more information on U.S. snow and ice during 2012, please see the U.S. Snow and Ice report.

Eurasia Winter
Snow Cover Extent plot
In Eurasia, snow cover extent during the 2011/12 winter was above average. The seasonal snow cover extent was 1.2 million square km (463,000 square miles) above the long-term average and ranked as the fourth largest on record, behind the winters of 1977/78, 2002/03, and 1971/72. By spring, the snow cover extent contracted to 1.0 million square km (386,000 square miles) below average and was the 12th smallest (35th largest) spring extent on record.
[ top ]
Sea Ice Extent


Daily Arctic Sea ice extent through 2012
Data Source:NSIDC
Arctic sea ice, which is measured from passive microwave instruments onboard NOAA satellites, usually expands during the cold season to a March maximum, and then contracts during the warm season to a September minimum. According to data from the National Snow and Ice Data Center (NSIDC), the maximum Arctic sea ice extent during 2012 occurred on March 18th, which was 12 days later than average. The annual maximum extent of 15.24 million square km (5.88 million square miles) was 614,000 square km (237,000 square miles) below the 1979-2000 average and the ninth lowest in the satellite record. The nine smallest annual Arctic sea ice maximum extents have occurred between 2004 and 2012. On March 18th, most of the Arctic had near to slightly-above average sea ice coverage, with the exception of the Barents and Kara Seas and the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The March 2012 monthly average Arctic sea ice extent was 15.21 million square kilometers (5.87 million square miles), 3.42 percent below the 1979-2000 long-term average, and the ninth smallest March ice extent on record. This was the largest March Arctic sea ice extent since 2008, and one of the largest of the last decade.

Arctic Sea Ice Extent on 16 September
Source:NSIDC
According to data from the NSIDC, on August 26th the Arctic sea ice extent dropped below the previous record low ice extent for the Arctic which occurred on September 18, 2007 at 4.17 million square km (1.61 million square miles). The sea ice continued shrinking until it dropped to 3.41 million square km (1.32 million square miles), reaching its annual minimum on September 16th. The 2012 annual minimum extent was 760,000 square kilometers (293,000 square miles) below the previous record minimum and 49 percent below the 1979-2000 average. During the Arctic sea ice melt season, between March 18th and September 16th, 11.83 million square kilometers (4.57 million square miles) of ice was lost. This marks the largest seasonal Arctic sea ice loss in the satellite record, surpassing the 10.65 million square km (4.11 million square miles) of ice loss during the 2008 melt season.

Sea Ice Volume Anomaly
Source: UW's Polar Ice Center
When using Arctic sea ice extent to monitor the state of sea ice conditions across the Arctic, no information is available on the thickness of the ice. To compensate for this, the Polar Science Center at the University of Washington developed a modeled dataset to measure the volume of Arctic sea ice using the Pan-Arctic Ice Ocean Modeling and Assimilation System (PIOMAS). Sea ice volume is an important climate indicator because it depends on both ice thickness and extent and therefore more directly tied to climate forcing than extent alone. According to this dataset, Arctic sea ice volume reached a monthly low value during September 2012, at 3,400 km3, the smallest monthly sea ice volume on record. The previous record small Arctic sea ice volume for September occurred in 2011 at 4,200 km3. The September 2012 value is 72 percent lower than the mean over the 1979-2011 period, 80 percent lower than the maximum in 1979, and 2.0 standard deviations below the 1979-2011 trend.

2012 Daily Antarcitc Sea Ice Extent through 2012
The Southern Hemisphere sea ice extent reached its annual maximum extent on September 26th at 19.44 million square km (7.51 million square miles). This marked the largest annual maximum extent of Antarctic sea ice extent on record and surpassed the previous record of 19.36 million square km (7.47 million square miles) which occurred on September 21, 2006.
Arctic summer sea ice is shrinking much more rapidly than the rate at which Antarctic winter sea ice is expanding. Over the 1979-2012 record, the Arctic has experienced significant ice loss, while the growth of Antarctic sea ice has been slight. The September 2012 record low Arctic sea ice extent was 6.2 standard deviations below its 1979-2000 average, while the record large Antarctic sea ice extent was 2.1 standard deviations above its 1979-2000 average. Differences in hemispheric weather patterns, ocean currents, and geography partially account for these differing sea ice trends. A more detailed description of these differences is available through the NSIDC.

I say consider the source because this guy has done the same thing before, I wonder if this is where Chris heard that volcanoes put out more CO2 than we do?

A new Olympic record for retraction of a denier talking point

By Joe Romm on Aug 25, 2008 at 3:52 pm
The gold medal goes to Steven Goddard of The Register. On Friday August 15, he published a scathing article, “Arctic ice refuses to melt as ordered: There’s something rotten north of Denmark” attacking the National Snow and Ice Data Center plot of Arctic Sea Ice Extent (below) that I and pretty much everyone else on the planet use.

Based on some (mis)analysis too obscure for mortal men and women to follow, he concluded “The problem is that this graph does not appear to be correct”:
The Arctic did not experience the meltdowns forecast by NSIDC and the Norwegian Polar Year Secretariat. It didn’t even come close. Additionally, some current graphs and press releases from NSIDC seem less than conservative. There appears to be a consistent pattern of overstatement related to Arctic ice loss….​
Unless you are a denier, you may not be surprised to learn the amateur denier was wrong and the country’s leading cryosphere scientists were right. But you might be surprised that Goddard issued an unequivocal retraction within days at the site of the original article:

Steven Goddard writes: “Dr. Walt Meier at NSIDC has convinced me this week that their ice extent numbers are solid…. It is clear that the NSIDC graph is correct, and that 2008 Arctic ice is barely 10% above last year – just as NSIDC had stated.”
In the words of Rosanne Rosanna Danna, “Never Mind.”
Kudos to Walt Meier of NSIDC for the rapidity with which NSIDC handled this. As he posted on Real Climate last Friday
NSIDC has worked with Mr. Goddard to get to the bottom of the issue … and as has been mentioned in the comments above, he has posted a correction. I thank Mr. Goddard for his cooperation in this matter.​
Unfortunately, this disinformation has raced around the world, with more than 70 blog reactions as of today according to Technorati, including headlines and comments such as:
  • Arctic Ice Grows 30 Per Cent In a Year
  • The Global Warming Theory takes a hit
  • Fishy Data From the Government
  • Here’s another installment about the silliness of “global warming” as posited by politicians and “environmentalists”.
  • Cooking the Books to Cook the Ice
  • Global Warming is about global government and depopulation
Oh well. Live by the blogosphere, die by the blogosphere.
In any case, if you look at the graph, you’ll see the Arctic ice extent is shrinking perilously close to last year’s record. It should be an exciting few weeks to see whether the record gets beat. But again, what’s important isn’t from all year by year fluctuations, but the astonishingly fast decline in Arctic ice in the last few decades driven in large part by global warming, which may have catastrophic implications for the planet
 
Autumn National Temperature Departures and Long-Term Trend, 1948 - 2012

The time series graph below shows that autumn temperatures have remained
above normal since 1997. The red dashed linear trend line indicates that
autumn temperatures have warmed by 1.5°C over the last 65 years.
autumn_temp_graph.gif

Climate Trends and Variations Bulletin - Autumn 2012
The temperature departures map below shows that areas of the Northwest Territories,​

Nunavut, southern British Columbia, northern Quebec and Atlantic Canada
had temperatures at least 1°C above normal.
Northern Northwest Territories and the northwestern part of Nunavut experiencing
temperatures more than 4°C above normal. Southern Yukon, northern B.C.,
most of Alberta, southern Saskatchewan, and southern Manitoba all experienced cooler
than normal temperatures this autumn.

autumn_temp_map.gif
BozoneLayer.jpg
THIS LAST AND POSSIBLY MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR HAS BEEN
COMPLETELY IGNORED BY THE SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY !
 
Well I thought I made my last post but, once again, you have to consider the source for this claim, because NOAA doesn't agree.

NOAA? Good one! They have been busted a few times for false data reporting. LMAO... oh wait... was this a joke or were you actually serious?
 
NOAA? Good one! They have been busted a few times for false data reporting. LMAO... oh wait... was this a joke or were you actually serious?

They've been busted huh, by who? The Global Warming Denier police? Lol. If you're talking about ClimateGate, we've been over that one and they were investigated by multiple independent organizations and no evidence of wrong doing was found. I know, I know, it's all a conspiracy! *pats you on the head*
 
They've been busted huh, by who? The Global Warming Denier police? Lol. If you're talking about ClimateGate, we've been over that one and they were investigated by multiple independent organizations and no evidence of wrong doing was found. I know, I know, it's all a conspiracy! *pats you on the head*
please list the multiple independent investigations, who funded them and who got to decide what was investigated.
Here is one link to the NOAA data manipulations. NOAA’s Jan-Jun 2010 Warmest Ever: Missing Data, False Impressions | Watts Up With That?
 
Yeah btw this is Steven Goddard, he's a geologist and electrical engineer, which is pretty typical of the know nothing deniers over at WUWT. I think I'll get my information from actual climate scientists, like I've said before.
Who Is Steven Goddard?






As my Really Sciency blog is a parody of Steven Goddard's pseudo-science blog 'Real Science' it seems that an investigation into the man was in order.

So what are his qualifications to post on climate issues? Who has/does he work for? How credible should he be taken?

According to a question asked in one of his ownpostings Mr Goddard says;
“I have a Bachelor of Science in Geology and a Masters In Electrical Engineering”
So academically he is about as qualified as myself and about as qualified as my cat to post his own analysis’s climate change. Also from various comments and posts it seems that he likes soccer and follows the English Premiership and enjoys cycling.

If you do a search for "Steven Goddard" on Google, it doesn't really show up much and this man seems very elusive, almost invisible. There are no photographs and no biography to the point that ‘Steven Goddard’ may even be a pseudonym. The cynic in me might suggest the name picked as a method of generating search hits on “Goddard” + “climate”.

He has had some articles published in The Register a British technology news and opinion website. Searching his name at The Reg gives links to just 5 opinion pieces all from about four years ago.
One of his pieces posted on Friday 15th August 2008 called ‘ “Arctic ice refuses to melt as ordered: There’s something rotten north of Denmark” he attacked the National Snow and Ice Data Center.

But after being contacted by Dr. Walt Meier at NSIDC he was forced to issue a retraction;
Steven Goddard writes: “Dr. Walt Meier at NSIDC has convinced me this week that their ice extent numbers are solid…. It is clear that the NSIDC graph is correct, and that 2008 Arctic ice is barely 10% above last year – just as NSIDC had stated.”

Unfortunately, this original error raced around the world on the the blogosphere and in many cases remains uncorrected. More information on this retraction can be found here.

Mr Goddard has previously popped up with numerous and inventive “sea ice updates” at Anthony Watts’ WTFUWT blog. This should be a clear warning to any WATTS followers as to the awful standard permissible for posting there, and some embarrassing back tracking has also happened as this post shows; “Arctic Ice Graphing LessonIncreasing Bt 50,000 km2 per year”.

Goddard’s ignorance on sea ice has also made him a topic at Skeptical Science.

Mr Goddard has also contributed to to the Science and Public Policy Institute‘s never-ending stream of climate denier propaganda joining the ranks of the truly potty with Viscount Christopher Monckton of Brenchley now as a peer. A good over view of his standard of scientific rigour at SPPI can be found at sciblogs;

If anyone else has any relevant information, or even if Mr Goddard himself care to get in touch, to fill in the blanks with some biography or a picture, feel welcome.
 
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