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Lost in the noise

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Rramjet

Skilled Investigator
I have been a long time listener to The Paracast and have enjoyed the exposition of the many paranormal issues David and Gene have explored over the past years. I heartily congratulate them on tackling the topic with serious commitment and an overriding concern for the “truth”.
<o></o>
Unfortunately however it seems that David and Gene are becoming increasingly frustrated in their search for “the truth”, often bemoaning the fact that the field of paranormal research has hardly advanced in (over) half a decade of public attention (I would argue otherwise…), and in their desperation even coming to decidedly defeatist conclusions such as that humankind may actually be “incapable” of understanding the truth about the paranormal. David and Gene’s frustration is also showing more and more in their treatment of guests who differ in opinion to their own – often exhibiting an unbecoming anger and petulance toward them and even on more than one occasion resorting to direct insults. Things seem to be falling apart for them and this does not bode well for the continuance of The Paracast - which has become one of the few rational, beacon lights in an otherwise murky mist of surreality, misinformation and disinformation surrounding the field of paranormal research.
<o></o>
What is however becoming increasingly clear is that David and Gene’s lack of a sound fundamental grounding in science and philosophy is more and more contributing to their own frustration and inability to come to grips with the “big picture”, instead concentrating on and becoming distracted by petty arguments over the minutia of answers to their often intelligent and probing questions. (Unfortunately) they are not alone in this basic lack of understanding of the principles of science (in what it is, how it historically operates and what it can or cannot presently do for us), many eminent scientists also lack a sound conceptual grasp of the discipline. But that is not all. To grasp the meaning of the paranormal requires a multidisciplinary approach. A fundamental understanding of (and thorough familiarity with the history of and the latest advances of at least) physics, chemistry and biology, coupled with psychology and sociology and the philosophical disciplines of ethics, epistemology and perception (at the very least), is needed (not to mention politics and cultural anthropology!). It is a rare person indeed who can truthfully claim to understand and be conversant with the fundamentals of all these disciplines and still be able to combine their lessons in ways that allow us to maintain a coherent grasp of some fundamental assumptions that keep us from becoming lost in the “noise”, but I contend it is nevertheless a prerequisite for coming to terms with a true understanding of “the paranormal”.
<o></o>
David and Gene are correct when they point out that paranormal research is (and historically has been) prey to any and all comers who merely have the power to raise their voices, rationally or irrationally, for good or for evil, above the general cacophony to gain warranted or unwarranted public attention and in this respect, lacking a sound peer review process, paranormal research, as is currently and in the main practiced, does not constitute a scientific discipline and is therefore prone to lunatic cult beliefs, practices and pronouncements which seem to eternally muddy the waters for those rational voices who do attempt to apply critical reasoning and scientific discipline to their explorations and expositions. My contention is that David and Gene’s fundamental lack of grounding in science and philosophy is leading to an insecurity in their being able to hold onto some fundamental “realities” concerning the paranormal, which in turn leads to their increasing frustration, both with the topic and with many of the people involved in it.
<o></o>
One must not however become disheartened with the task ahead. Each journey begins with a first step and I would exhort all those interested in truly understanding “the paranormal” (and particularly David and Gene as they are “in the public eye”) to begin by gaining a thorough understanding of the history, philosophy and methodology of science. With that as a base one can then move on to explore philosophy (particularly epistemology – or how we know what we know – and perception) and then a toss up between the “hard sciences” (physics, chemistry, genetics, etc) and psychology and sociology as a next step. This may sound a truly daunting task, but if one wants to truly understand “the paranormal” one first needs the tools to understand it with, and as I said, each journey begins with the first step (and one must begin somewhere).
<o></o>
Finally, having a multidisciplinary understanding prevents us from making unwarranted assertions - such as those pertaining to our incapacity to understand, or that “exopolitics” is a waste of time or that “disclosure” is an endeavour doomed to failure… these assertions are based on assumptions that dictate a certain reality about the paranormal that in the same breath we claim not to (or can never to be able to) know…
<o></o>
Of course the natural (and lazy man’s) argument against such individual labour and certain sacrifice to learn would be to state that one need not be an expert to understand the principles involved, one need only employ (or interview) experts to provide us with a generalist understanding – but that is my point exactly! First, there are no real experts (only pretenders) on whom we can unreservedly rely and second, it is only via a true multidisciplinary understanding that one may understand who is providing “good” information, because with a multidisciplinary understanding one has a fundamental grasp of all the assumptions that may underpin any information received - and it is this global understanding of assumptions that provides us the base of all knowledge. For example folklaw often seems to have a certain common sense “ring of truth” about it – until one examines the assumptions underpinning it… (often correlation equals causation or that the cause is dispositional rather than situational) … and it all falls apart.
<o></o>
No, my contention is that if David and Gene, at this point in their Paracast careers, wish to avoid ultimate frustration and “burnout” they need to avail themselves of the tools necessary to move ahead. That is, David and Gene, to avoid slipping into angry irrelevancy you must now embark upon a true journey of discovery by learning how to apply the knowledge of a multidisciplinary scientific approach to the field of paranormal research. A first step must be the history, philosophy and methodology of science, without this first step you will remain lost in the noise. With it, music will begin to emerge.
 
History is written by the victors. Philosophy depends on what regime is in power. The methodology of science has a tendency to change over time.
We like the Paracast as it is.:p
 
Rramjet,

I sincerely thank you for the thoughtful post.

It's true, I'm not an expert in psychology, science, anthropology or even logic. I'm a technologist who also happens to have had a wide range of paranormal experiences in my life. Perhaps it's a stretch to state that the Paracast is solely focused on obtaining some "truth" that seems highly elusive, maybe we should categorize it as a place where Gene & I have conversations about these topics without any expectations whatsoever. I suppose that we're wasting our time, in fact, I'm increasingly convinced that this is indeed the case. I'd much rather be making noise with synthesizers and kissing my sweet honey. Sharing my experiences on the show has yielded nothing but grief and bullshit. I've made some wonderful new friends doing the show, but outside of that, it often feels like this is not a productive way to spend my time.

Thanks for your thoughts and feedback.

dB
 
SoCaGNX wrote
<o></o>
History is written by the victors.
<o></o>
What has that got to do with my post? Besides, there are many examples where history was written by the “defeated”. Dogmatic folklaw is a dangerous master.
<o></o>
Philosophy depends on what regime is in power.
<o></o>
Philosophy depends on the application of critical thinking and is one of the few disciplines that may claim to be divorced from individual regimes. Aphorisms are false gods.;)
<o></o>
The methodology of science has a tendency to change over time.
<o></o>
The methodology of science is fundamental to the discipline of science and without a strict, rule based, unchanging methodology it would no longer be science but faith – I think you must mean that the philosophy of science changes over time… perhaps you could benefit from a study of the history, philosophy and methodology of science?
<o></o>
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<o></o>Are applauding the fact that David absented himself in a fit of pique from a good part of the latest podcast? To whose benefit was that exactly?
 
Are applauding the fact that David absented himself in a fit of pique from a good part of the latest podcast? To whose benefit was that exactly?

It was to MY benefit, my mental health. Not like that means anything to our audience - I'm sure my dropping dead would provide endless delight to oh so many faceless fans.

Jesus H. Christmas tree, you'd think that I raped a puppy or something. A hundred and thirty-something episodes, I walk off one, and now I'm a scumbag.

Fuck me upside down...

dB
 
Perhaps it's a stretch to state that the Paracast is solely focused on obtaining some "truth" that seems highly elusive, maybe we should categorize it as a place where Gene & I have conversations about these topics without any expectations whatsoever. I suppose that we're wasting our time, in fact, I'm increasingly convinced that this is indeed the case. I'd much rather be making noise with synthesizers and kissing my sweet honey.
dB

David, I am truly sorry to hear you so disillusioned. Trust me, you really are doing a wonderful job and most definately NOT wasting your time. I at least appreciate what you are doing and the effort that must go into the whole enterprise. At some level I could sense your disillusionment and my post was all about trying to forestall your disillusion by injecting a certain "directionality" to further your expositions. Some new life if you will. Perhaps my approach was wrong. I understand that you really would like to just continue to "chew the fat" solely out of a sense of personal interest with no expectations or pressure - but your audience may sometimes demand more of you and you must realise that - perhaps I in turn expect too much of you. My interest also stems from a number of experiences that lead me inexorably to question and learn all I can (and to push others to make the most out of their own explorations wherever possible). My journey will continue because I am an eternal optimist and believe that someday we will have the answers - I am not egotistical enough to think that it matters much if they come in my lifetime - all I care is if my efforts can contribute to a forward direction (at least I try...). The history of scientific discovery shows us that many important breakthroughs are presaged by utter confusion in the field with all sorts of wacky ideas swirling around - often continuing in such a state for centuries - but you never can tell when the breakthrough will happen - it could be tomorrow! Making sweet music with instruments and loved ones is fine, but in the end, such things would soon pall if we did not have the trials and tribulations with which to punctuate and make them an even sweeter appreciation. I just hope you continue with The Paracast, it would truly be a great loss if you decided to chuck it in now.

Best wishes.
Rr
 
It was to MY benefit, my mental health. Not like that means anything to our audience - I'm sure my dropping dead would provide endless delight to oh so many faceless fans.

Jesus H. Christmas tree, you'd think that I raped a puppy or something. A hundred and thirty-something episodes, I walk off one, and now I'm a scumbag.
dB

Oooo... David, I was only trying to make a pointy point to SoCalGNX - I do realise that you had to walk off for good reason. That's why I started this thread in the first place, trying to get a discussion going around positive ways of overcoming your patent frustration and dissillusionment and I thought (perhaps misguidedly) that expanding your " mental toolbox" might provide that outlet. A bit of mental stimulation that is interesting, outside a direct connection with the paranormal but that could also be then utilised in that interest to carry you further on than where you find yourself now. That's all.

Faceless fans are useless materially, I know, but just for now this is for you :D
 
To begin with i really agreed with the OP, I think perhaps frustration has settled in a bit, and it perhaps has reduced how much i like the show by an amount.
Later on though, All that waffle about science and Philosophy was a well written piece but i'm not sure its that relevant. when listening to older paracasts, both Gene and David sounded fresh, interested and eager to listen to guests. when they started talking nonsense, the guests were still listened to and intelligently questioned so as to expose weaknesses in their stories.
All of this was done with in a jolly manner making it a joy to listen to and a fun all round experience.

Now i'm not saying that has dissapeared, but I do think the frustration has come through. I think sometimes instead of listening to guests, a point of view has almost been imposed on them and then frustrations gathered if they resist.

But hey, the people who run this show are human, and this is a fucking crazy subject that can make anyone go nuts and lose themselves and their goal at any time. In terms of all that stuff about science and philosophy.... I think it is idealistic, and hey, this is a radio talkshow created for the joy of the presenters and to inspire others into thoughtful thinking.... not some sort of Condon Report

All i would say to the OP, is that this show has been absolutely solid for a number of years... and it is a free service (which actually costs the hosts money). Just because there is one or two episodes which don't quite meet the extra-ordinarily high bar already set by itself, it doesnt mean that the end is nigh.

All i would say to the presenters is that I love the show, i hope you don't let it or the posts about you get to your head. Take a step back, remember why you started it and what you enjoy about it, and go down that route.
At the same time keep an open mind... dont' fall down the stan friedman trap and 'think' that you are being open minded but unwittingley arent.
As an example, Bob Lazar is full of shit IMO... i don't beleive a word he says, but i respect him for having the best poker face in the world, and i don't get angry with those who do believe him... because there IS actually some basic evidence supporting his case.
Most of all though, i would say i love the show, it has given both me and all the listeners here lots of hapiness, and it has created a bubble within the noise where people can discuss their theories in a rational environment. When this show has a good episode.... its something that you won't get anywhere else on the planet. Now THAT is a reason to carry on.....
 
Frustration is understandable, and hard not to feel, especially if you're an experiencer seeking answers, but finding BS wherever you turn. Also, anyone who goes public with a paranormal or anomalous experience, opens themselves up to all manner of crap and insults, whilst still trying to work out what the hell happened to them. It's hard to put concisely into words, but if you've had a genuine experience, you tend to get very frustrated with the hoaxers, profiteers, attention-seekers, and every other BS merchant trying to peddle their crap. Such people trivialise genuine experiences, and promote the myth that all paranormal experiencers have simply jumped on the woo-woo bandwagon. As a result, genuine experiencers get tarred with the same brush as the bullshitters, and targeted with the same scorn and ridicule, being told they're either dishonest, delusional or plain daft.

For me, the best thing about The Paracast, is that it promotes critical thinking about paranormal issues, rather than spoon-feeding us bland pap. Do I think the hosts are too harsh? I've been interviewed by them, and enjoyed the experience. Had I been spinning an elaborate yarn to relieve the gullible of their cash, I've no doubt they would have torn me a new one, and deservedly so. Frustration, at least from my own perspective, goes with the territory, when it comes to trying to make sense of the paranormal. The whole thing is confusing enough already, without various agenda-pushers adding their noise to an already fuzzy signal. When you've spent years trying to make sense of paranormal events, and faced so many hindrances, it's hard not to be frustrated.
 
SoCaGNX wrote
<o></o>
History is written by the victors.
<o></o>
What has that got to do with my post? Besides, there are many examples where history was written by the “defeated”. Dogmatic folklaw is a dangerous master.
<o></o>
Philosophy depends on what regime is in power.
<o></o>
Philosophy depends on the application of critical thinking and is one of the few disciplines that may claim to be divorced from individual regimes. Aphorisms are false gods.;)
<o></o>
The methodology of science has a tendency to change over time.
<o></o>
The methodology of science is fundamental to the discipline of science and without a strict, rule based, unchanging methodology it would no longer be science but faith – I think you must mean that the philosophy of science changes over time… perhaps you could benefit from a study of the history, philosophy and methodology of science?
<o></o>
<!--[if gte vml 1]><v:shapetype id="_x0000_t75" coordsize="21600,21600" o:spt="75" o:preferrelative="t" path="m@4@5l@4@11@9@11@9@5xe" filled="f" stroked="f"> <v:stroke joinstyle="miter"/> <v:formulas> <v:f eqn="if lineDrawn pixelLineWidth 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 1 0"/> <v:f eqn="sum 0 0 @1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @2 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="prod @3 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @0 0 1"/> <v:f eqn="prod @6 1 2"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelWidth"/> <v:f eqn="sum @8 21600 0"/> <v:f eqn="prod @7 21600 pixelHeight"/> <v:f eqn="sum @10 21600 0"/> </v:formulas> <v:path o:extrusionok="f" gradientshapeok="t" o:connecttype="rect"/> <o:lock v:ext="edit" aspectratio="t"/> </v:shapetype><v:shape id="_x0000_i1025" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="" style='width:12pt; height:12pt'> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\dabiddle\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\01\clip_image001.gif" o:href="http://forum.theparacast.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif"/> </v:shape><![endif]--><!--[if !vml]-->“We like the Paracast as it is.”

<o></o>Are applauding the fact that David absented himself in a fit of pique from a good part of the latest podcast? To whose benefit was that exactly?

1. You need to reread your last paragraph of your posting.
2. I have yet to hear the episode that David walked off from. Sorry to be behind but I have a life other podcasts - they are for desert, not my main course in life.
I like the way the show is and has been. I do not feel that David and Gene need to change much of anything in the way they conduct the show. I think they ask the right questions.
 
Besides, there are many examples where history was written by the “defeated”.

I'm not necessarily contending your position, but could you give one of these examples?


You could start with the Bible. The Jews got their collective ass handed to them for a while there.
 
I have been an expereincerm all my life but I didn't have a name for what I was experiencing or start looking into that aspect seriously until 1994.

After a successful double transplant in 1997 I started attending conferences a few years later. I went into the conferences open minded and was extremely naive about all the hoaxers charlatans and mentally ill people attending these things.

It took me several years to weed through the mess and not only did I not find too many answers I am not sure what the question is anymore. I wish the paracast or something like that would have been around in the mid 1990s to shed some light on just how crazy this field is and some perspective.

I think Gene and Dave and both well read, extremely smart and critical thinkers. I am glad I have this forum to express myself and learn more about what other people are experiencing as well as how nonexperiencers think.
 
Jesus H. Christmas tree, you'd think that I raped a puppy or something. A hundred and thirty-something episodes, I walk off one, and now I'm a scumbag.

Fuck me upside down...

dB

That's ok we forgive you just dont do it again ok !;)

On a serious note maybe you could benefit from a Holiday ? Not that I want to sound patronising but every once in a while it's good to recharge our batteries.
 
You could start with the Bible. The Jews got their collective ass handed to them for a while there.

I really don't think that qualifies as an example of history written by the defeated. Very few thinking people consider the bible to be an accurate historical record.

The burning bush may disagree with me on that one though.

That statement of "history written by the defeated" really makes no sense to me at all. The conquerors of a society control the social institutions, in particular the educational (indoctrination) system, so how could history *ever* be written by the defeated?
 
I think there is very little science in it tbh, since we can't really measure anything.
Any science used in UFO's is far beyond what we can comprehend. If it wasnt, we'd build our own UFO :cool:
 
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