Lunar Phenomena Show

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Hi Gene, Chris & Don ,
Great show guys

 

[trainedobserver]

First offender and all that. You have to consider the criminal's background. He got in because the IT people were dumb. Let it be a wakeup call.

Good grief Gene, we're talking about the Pentagon! He breaks into United States government computers and allegedly sees material that has a security classification above nuclear weapons and you think he should get a "first offender pass?" Do you seriously believe that as an IT professional that he did not fully comprehend the weight and consequences of his actions when he took them? I'm not being vindictive or judgmental here, just realistic. Gary McKinnen knew exactly what he was doing and what the consequences of being caught were, he just didn't care at the time. Now he sure as hell does, only its a little too late. The "stupid dumb ass" defense really doesn't cut it. And which is he then, a computer genius or an ignoramus?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

There's still a first offense issue, not to mention the possibility that he is autistic, and hence may have been less aware than most people of the consequences of the actions. I still believe that criminals, so to speak, should be considered as individuals and not as names on a sheet of paper.

Yes, he can get time for his crimes, plus probation. But do you put him away for the better part of his life for this?

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Agree on the autistic point Gene and who else was influencing his behavior must be taken into account? Although, it seem harsh that he would spend the rest of his life behind bars when these days murders can get out on bail after five years it seems on good behavior and parole in some nations?

 

[trainedobserver]

There's still a first offense issue, not to mention the possibility that he is autistic, and hence may have been less aware than most people of the consequences of the actions. I still believe that criminals, so to speak, should be considered as individuals and not as names on a sheet of paper.

Yes, he can get time for his crimes, plus probation. But do you put him away for the better part of his life for this?

Wait a minute, wait a minute! He is an autistic IT professional? How many autistic system administrators have you run into? Have you ever watched an interview with the man? He does not strike me as autistic or debilitated in any way shape or form. He knew he was committing a crime when he did it and he admits that in more than one interview. If he was/is performing as a system administrator in any capacity whatsoever, I cannot for the life me see him as autistic to point of being excused for computer crime.

The only way for him to get a trial is to come over here and go through it. If they find him incompetent or mentally unbalanced then so be it. Making excuses for this bozo is really tough for me to justify any way I look at it.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

When I talk of IT people, I mean the idiots who failed to properly password protect those computers. You got this mixed up.

 

[trainedobserver]

When I talk of IT people, I mean the idiots who failed to properly password protect those computers. You got this mixed up.

I'm not confused in the slightest. Gary McKinnon wiki entry: Gary McKinnon (born 10 February 1966) is a Scottish[SUP][1][/SUP] systems administrator and hacker who has been accused of what one U.S. prosecutor claims is the "biggest military computer hack of all time,"[SUP][2][/SUP] although McKinnon himself states that he was merely looking for evidence of free energy suppression and a cover-up of UFO activity and other technologies potentially useful to the public. After a series of legal proceedings in England, McKinnon is currently fighting extradition to the United States.

So he isn't/wasn't a system administrator and IT professional? Is that what you're saying?

I don't know what sentence he may actually be facing. Whatever that is, I find it absolutely unbelievable that his defense would be "I didn't know any better" or "I'm autistic."

 

[Gene Steinberg]

By systems administrators I meant the people in the Pentagon who failed to set proper passwords. Kapish?

 

[trainedobserver]

By systems administrators I meant the people in the Pentagon who failed to set proper passwords. Kapish?

Yes Gene I understand what you said about the IT people in the Pentagon. You were also trying to say that Gary was a smuck who stumbled his way into Pentagon computers and should be excused because of diminished mental capacity. Is that not correct?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

If he's autistic, that's one thing. He could also have been very, very naive about the meaning of what he had done. I don't pretend to know his psychology.

 

[Snoman]

Penetration is available in PDF easy to find via google. My copy doesn't contain any of the drawings that were in the original however. Does anyone have one that does?

I still cannot find an electronic copy of Somebody else is on the moon. All of these out of print UFO books whose authors are now dead need to be preserved to PDF before they crumble into dust IMHO. If someone has a copy of this book I would appreciate if you would contact me. I realize folks might be reluctant to loan their rare books to strangers, however I believe we could arrive at some arrangement that would reassure the owner and get the book into more hands with little effort.

Alternately, although I'm not to the point where I'd want to pay over $100 for a copy of the book, if several folks would like to chip in we could get a hardback copy off Amazon. I would be glad to create a PDF to share with everyone and we could hold a drawing to those who contribute to see who gets the actual book.

Anyone with any thoughts on this effort pro or con, please contact me.

You may luck out and find it in a library. According to my county library website, it is checked in at a library 90 miles from me, in Martin's Ferry, Ohio.

 

[Ron Collins]

In regards to McKinnon I think that the most interesting thing is the extradition. For me the curiosity comes more from the technology industry side of things. Typically, if a hacker/cracker is found to be operating outside of the U.S. for a crime involving U.S. domestic attacks the State Department pushes for full prosecution of the hacker/cracker according to that countries laws. In this case, the U.S. government look at the issue and found that 100 hours of community service (I think that was the likely punishment, I can't actually remember) was far too lenient. I think it was more of a "you hack us and we will come for you" statement. They cant back down now. But in his defense I will say that an 80 year sentence is kind of absurd.

I am a bit torn on the issue of legal persecution though. Persecution in the "we are making an example of you" sense. Should a guy be prosecuted in the country he committed the penetration on or in the country he was in at the time of the criminal acts. I seem to go back and forth on this. I am not a lawyer so I am not all that well versed in this but I think this case is one of the first that will test the legality of this. Not only in our courts but in the UK as well.

Also, I look at the McKinnon health issues to be more of a gimmick to avoid extradition. Kind of like the "pleading temporary insanity" stuff here. This guy was well within his mental faculties. He once had a freaking notepad conversation once with a network administrator that caught him snooping on a system. He was using VNC and so to the network admin was physically standing at the system and noticed the mouse moving and windows explorer instances popping up. So this admin decides to open "notepad" and type something like "who are you" on it. McKinnon told the guy he was a network security auditor and they chatted for a few minutes about network security. Then he disconnected from that system and moved on. That is not insanity. That is displaying enormous Titanium balls with diamonds scattered here and there. Its a guy that thought he was bullet proof.

That feeling is not new to people that gain access to things they should not. I have sat in a small auditorium and listened to Kevin Mitnick talk about it. He talked about how over time he began to take stupid chances. He became bored with the tediousness of being cautious. Lack of discipline is what ends up catching most. The best "black hats" are never caught. Some of the most famous hacker handles at large today are "Topiary", "Th3j35t3r", and "Day110". They are very good at being disciplined. But, they are also cult heros and enjoy status within a community. So they are not exactly under the radar.

This is also what McKinnon was into. He attended local 2600 group meetings and even frequented old BBS's (now webified) that were the precursors to the forums we now use all the time. Many have recalled that he would brag about how he had access to U.S. Government files. Most thought he was just another bullshitter trying to gain access to a very exclusive community. Which he probably was. Now he may gain access to some exclusive community residing at the one of the fine Federal Penitentiaries dotting the US. Where, I have no doubt, he will probably go by the new handle of "bitch".

Now is that a punishment that fits the crime??? Up for debate I suppose. For me the jury is still out.

 

[trainedobserver]

Now is that a punishment that fits the crime??? Up for debate I suppose. For me the jury is still out.

Yes, it is obvious that Gary McKinnon knew exactly what he was doing and what the possible ramifications of his actions were. The ONLY reason this is even discussed in UFO circles or brought up by researchers on podcasts is his claim of finding UFO related material. However, I do not see McKinnon as a reliable witness by any stretch of the imagination. Did he see what he claims to have seen. I for one highly doubt it. The fact that sloppy researchers have elevated him to computer genius or idiot savant status is to loan credence to his UFO information claims. I think your analysis of the situation is right on. Does the punishment fit the crime? That's a tough one. Does he get off with 100 hours of community service for essentially breaking and entering, theft, and the alleged damage (which really amounts to nothing) to United States government computer systems that he caused? Gee, I don't know, but I cannot imagine a situation where anyone breaks into the Pentagon (real or virtual) and gets away with a slap on the wrist.

---------- Post added at 08:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:13 AM ----------

You may luck out and find it in a library. According to my county library website, it is checked in at a library 90 miles from me, in Martin's Ferry, Ohio.

I think I may have found one about 200 miles from me in Texas. I don't know what the leaning policies are, I'll try to find out. I still think the way to do is to buy a copy though. I have two others willing to pitch in. If I can get a couple more folks to throw in I think we got a plan.

Uh, Snoman. Lookout! The damn ferret has the flame-thrower again!

 

[Gene Steinberg]

100 hours of community service would be absurd, but putting him away for a large portion of his life would be equally absurd. This crime couldn't have occurred had the IT people in Washington known what they were doing. It would just be one of a million unsuccessful hacking attempts otherwise.

I won't elevate him to a saint by any means. He got lucky, got in, and got caught. But I suppose it has to end some time.

 

[boomerang]

I thought it was a great show. IMO, Childress helped himself to a little more air time than he was capable of handling. Don's contributions were informed and to the point as usual. The Saccheri story strikes me as far fetched. But the longer I watch the behavior of NASA, the stranger it seems. Sadly, it never was the peoples' space agency it purported to be.

Gary McKinnon: The question is how information and data so sensitive that the government is apparently moving boulders in efforts to get their hands on McKinnon, would be given such sloppy protection. Something doesn't add up. I don't for a minute believe McKinnon had some kind of digital magic that would enable him to beat state of the art encryption.

 

[trainedobserver]

100 hours of community service would be absurd, but putting him away for a large portion of his life would be equally absurd. This crime couldn't have occurred had the IT people in Washington known what they were doing. It would just be one of a million unsuccessful hacking attempts otherwise.
I won't elevate him to a saint by any means. He got lucky, got in, and got caught. But I suppose it has to end some time.

I think one of the life lessons here is, If you embarrass the rich and powerful, expect some serious blow back.
The whole don't tug on Superman's cape, don't poke at the Lone Rangers mask, and don't flip off the police comes to mind. Were I to contemplate an attempt to hack into any government system, particularly the Pentagon's, I would expect to be imprisoned or worse if caught. I think you would as well. For some reason a foreigner hacking into the Pentagon seems even more egregious and worthy of full punishment to the extent of the law.

I personally don't think they will ever get that guy over here. It will just languish on and his legend will grow and he'll be forever referred to as the guy who discovered evidence of a secret space program on Pentagon computers regardless of what the facts may be.

---------- Post added at 09:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 AM ----------

David did something on this show that many people in this field seem to like to do. He used film and television references as confirmation or proof of various theories. The distinction between fantasy and reality are obviously blurred by such references and it only serves to further marginalize whatever point they are trying to get across. Alarms start going off in my head when people do this. Anytime someone makes such references or mentions the word dream in the context of relating their experience I get a bit wary of what is to follow. Another litmus test of sorts for me is the mention of crop circles. When someone starts talking about alien created crop circles or real crop circles as opposed to hoaxed crop circles caution flags go up as well.

 

[pixelsmith]

I enjoyed the show.. I think a part 2 with a different guest would be great. Thanks guys!

 

[owlman]

An absolutely riveting show from start to finish. Don at the end of the show said, " we'll have to this again" , and I agree! More Moon please !!!!

 

[Ron Collins]

Gary McKinnon: The question is how information and data so sensitive that the government is apparently moving boulders in efforts to get their hands on McKinnon, would be given such sloppy protection. Something doesn't add up. I don't for a minute believe McKinnon had some kind of digital magic that would enable him to beat state of the art encryption.

I realize I was a bit long winded, but if you are really interested in the "how" of what he did you should read my posts. There was no encryption to beat. He just logged in.

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:11 PM ----------

...The whole don't tug on Superman's cape, don't poke at the Lone Rangers mask, ...

Was that a Jim Croche reference? NICE!

I personally don't think they will ever get that guy over here. It will just languish on and his legend will grow and he'll be forever referred to as the guy who discovered evidence of a secret space program on Pentagon computers regardless of what the facts may be.

I Think he will be extradited and then be given a trial here. Then the judge will reduce the sentence to something like 5 or 6 years. I think the important part of this as far as the US Government is concerned is to set the precedent for extraditing foreign cyber criminals to the US for trial. I dont think Gary McKinnon is the actual target. He is just the unfortunate soul caught up in a landmark precedent setting issue being brought before the courts of international law. This is really about seting the stage for more aggressive prosecution of criminals that operate from an assumed safe haven. Once you understand that side of the case all the maneuvering starts to make sense. A lot more sense than an evil UFO driven plot to silence one ballsy idiot who happened to expose the egregious laziness of the collective US network management staff.

 

[Decker]

A quick point of order here but, shouldn't the McKinnion thing be in it's own thread? Not to plagiarise myself (GOD FORBID) but ...

What in hell does this have to do with freaking Lunar Phenomena???

Decker