Memories of Area 51

[Kieran]

It seems



That's what witnesses reported and the trajectory indicates.



Based on witness reports, no way.



This idea was never seiously proposed while the soviet venera notion makes little sense for the same reason; had it been just a piece of '60s space junk, what was retrieved would've been revealed long ago.

Yes why not admit it so. Agreed slightly odd, but do Government agencies/ Nasa so on really care or give a damn what the UFO community think's. They'll release information only when it suits them and when there is enough pressure brought to force them to release information.



Yep.



I don't think so. We've been over this before; the phenomenon exhibits capabilities in excess of ours; ; if came from here, we almost certainly wouldn't be occupying the dominant niche and probably would've been prrempted. And there's no evidence of a nonhuman indigenous intelligence evolving in the past.



It's not necesary to control a galaxy's energy output to be advanced.



The fact that most/all reported aspects date from '47 points to a single basic phenomenon.

I want to move away from the subject of Roswell and Kecksburg and answer a few of your other points. Before i do that. Your entitled to your view, to what you think happened at Kecksburg, but to avoid going around in circles i decided to end the discussion if you don't mind? To control a galaxy's energy output they wouldn't need to be all that advanced. I have to differ with you here and to be honest don't get your logic? Explain.

We differ also in how we view this subject, how long it has been going on and what is the sourcing. I don't no were your hail from Trajanus? but to me this phenomenon was detailed thousands of years ago by my ancestors who are long since dead. The Celt myths detail, that these beings were living close or near to or world/ a parallel world and these myths described the nature of how they lived among us and left later after doing battle with a race called the Milesians, bascially they were human like you and me. You obviously don't believe a word of this, but for me it more interesting this story. Because during the 14th century before anyone of us were even born. The UFO phenomenon was unheard of and forget about 1947 been the starting date for ufology. There was a Book produced in old Irish and Latin, lot of ye are aware that i speak Irish it's may first language of choice. But this book written by a number of monks/ Christian monks detailed the beginnings of the Irish Race from the very beginning.

In English the Book is called the Book of Invasions or the taking of Ireland. Now remember before you dismiss this as nonsense. Ireland at this time was considered to be a major player in Europe, when it came to producing books that were masterpieces, and these Monks were christen more astound to their faith then we are today. This Book there is no doubt in my mind, what it is saying. That long ago there was supernatural races roaming the planet like the fairies and these beings used magic according to the stories. Magic probably meant they had technology and things like that. The Book described Cities from were they came from and how time would slow down if you went to their world for a period of time. A year there could mean three hundreds years passed here. There is lot more in this book.

This book was accepted as being a fact up until the 17th century even mainstream historians agree. But after that date, this book was considered to be just a work of fiction. You don't need to be a rocket science to figure out why this book status changed after the 17th century. There is also another book, the Book of Balllymote which confirms many of the stories that were written about in the Book of Invasions. The Book of Ballymote was produced in the 13th century, 1391 i believe.
Trajanus, go and take a look and see what other cultures have to say about the UFO phenomenon in the past. Don't be so close minded to other possibilities to the origins of UFO's. I don't dismiss the ETH hypothesis, because i really don't know, what the right the answer is. I've theories that make more sense to me personally, but once you put yourself into one camp only, you then become a true believer and less ready for change when the time comes.


The obvious fact is, Trajanus, The UFO phenomenon since 1947 is only continuing on doing the same thing as it did in the past. It was viewed differently back then, my ancestors for example called these UFO's, "Demon Ships", and there is without a doubt large blip of knowledge and UFO account's, that have been lost, due to language issues, death, and time fading memories. You can stick to your view or do the Research. Vallee for me personally Trajanus, understood the true complexity of the phenomenon and i still think he is closer to the truth than the rest ( whatever that means for sure truth)

---------- Post added at 01:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:49 PM ----------

You make a lot of sense. I have an open mind to all this stuff. My mind is open to what makes the most sense. You present a compelling argument.
I NEVER believed/accepted, that Bob Lazar was some kind of crackpot or hoaxer. To me, Lazar can be only ONE of these two things. He is either the real deal, or a black-psyops Agent.
As for his vanishing records, I had similar incidents in regards to the military. 15 years ---after--- I left the service, did I only learn from my VA hospital, that I was supposed to have TWO DD214 records-of-service. My second-enlistment DD214 mentions my first enlistment, therefore, I never noticed. That the military withheld from me, my ---first--- enlistment DD214, and my first enlistment, is where a Ufo-government-coverup kind-of embroilment ensnared me.
After that Ufo incident, all of my medical records info vanished, so that, new ones for me, had to be made, from this later point in time. During my Ufo-related "embroilment", I experienced a couple of hospitalizations, and being given drugs.

Thank's Simone for your kind words. Lot of these facts were well-established before i wrote about them and those facts are just the tip of the Iceberg. I accept there is a possibility you're medical files were erased or vanished. This hospital you were in was a military hospital; correct? you were member of the armed forces? so i guess someone higher up in the chain could've gained access to your files and made them disappear?

If Lazar was indeed working for a government agency at the time of coming out with this story and still is, who know's. It wouldn't surprise me, Lazar was probably hired to spread UFO disinformation and bring a notion of the crazy factor to Area 51. Serious journalists (laugh cough) probably avoided this place like the plague after the debate died down about him being genuine or not.

 

[Trajanus]

To control a galaxy's energy output they wouldn't need to be all that advanced. I have to differ with you here and to be honest don't get your logic? Explain.

I meant it's not necessary to control the whole galactic energy output, as in type 2, to be very advanced.

The obvious fact is, Trajanus, The UFO phenomenon since 1947 is only continuing on doing the same thing as it did in the past.

No, I don't think it's an obvious fact. There is a crucial difference between old stories and the modern reports: there has been at least some--in fact considerable--empirical evidence for the latter, and much of it pointing to "nuts and bolts" craft and visitors. Anybody can just put pen to paper and let their imaginations run wild. AFAIK there's no real evidence of advanced past civilizations indigenous to earth. I think past peoples may have seen UFOs; no problem with that. But the phenomenon is almost certainly ET and intensified after WWII.

 

[Kieran]

Yes and maybe someone might have a histroical information of hard evidence in relation to these so called Naval Bases?

There is a secret naval base that is equivalent to Area 51. I believe UFO hunters done a show about it, Now i don't think there is alien submarines and alien ships being build inside this base or Aliens doing walkabouts around the base. Historical evidence, if there is a secret naval base above water. It'll be hard to keep that undiscovered for too long without it being seen by local citizens or curious passers by.

---------- Post added at 01:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 PM ----------

I meant it's not necessary to control the whole galactic energy output, as in type 2, to be very advanced.


Not advanced in technology you mean? or do you just mean, a species like this their culture development had a longer time to flourish and the level of intelligence is not greater than us.

You've your point of view. It wasn't meant to be a book of stories you see. It was detailed account, accepted account of every culture and race including races that were not human who occupied and lived on the island of Ireland before the Great flood and after. The Books details, that the world suffered some type of major disaster 12,000 or more years ago and there was only a few survivors.

I don't think you can could say these Books were just written by anyone; They were written by monks that had more respect in the 14th than UFO researchers do today. No offence

 

[Trajanus]

Not advanced in technology you mean?

Sure.

You've your point of view. It wasn't meant to be a book of stories you see. It was detailed account, accepted account of every culture and race including races that were not human who occupied and lived on the island of Ireland before the Great flood

Lol, that's a myth

I don't think you can could say these Books were just written by anyone; They were written by monks that had more respect in the 14th than UFO researchers do today.

Yes indeed no doubt about it. But medieval monks copied down all kinds of things they didn't believe in themselves. They preserved much of the pagan literature of the Greeks and Romans, and probably many myths and legends of northern Europe including beowulf IIRC.

 

[Kieran]

Sure.



Lol, that's a myth



Yes indeed no doubt about it. But medieval monks copied down all kinds of things they didn't believe in themselves. They preserved much of the pagan literature of the Greeks and Romans, and probably many myths and legends of northern Europe including beowulf IIRC.

Not advanced in technology? That i would consider to be ill-informed logic Trajanus. If a Civilization can manipulate space and time, that species more than likely is a highly developed technology driven society/ colony what ever their structure is. The Principle is the more a civilization is advanced the greater the chance the Civilization can harness the energy from a galaxy. Put it like this, we are only around 0.767 on the scale and were not even a type 1 Civilization and we get our energy from sources on or planet. We are talking about a civilization that has the ability to harness vast amounts of energy for their own purposes. For EXAMPLE; Black holes could be used to travel therefore they could be using the energy of the black hole to do so. They could also be tapping the energy from suns orbiting other planets, other universes and galaxies and so on. Again highly advanced technology would be needed or required to enable a civilization to do this.

Well you laugh, do you live on this planet? How is the UFO phenomenon viewed today by most people. Is it accepted as fact, what do skeptic's say? Usally what you hear is; Those tales are just myths and stories? We are not being visited and there is no evidence? Of course they are myths, so what, so that doesn't mean there is not lot of truth in there somewhere. What is paganism really dude? My take, the believe in other things other than what the Christian church believe. Would i be wrong to believe in UFO's , if i was living in the 15th i had a sighting and reported it. Would the church come after me, as a heretic? We can't know what the monks believed themselves, the fact is this book was considered to be factual until the early 17th century. So for me, i wonder about that.

 

[Trajanus]

Not advanced in technology? That i would consider to be ill-informed logic Trajanus. If a Civilization can manipulate space and time, that species more than likely is a highly developed technology driven society/ colony what ever their structure is. The Principle is the more a civilization is advanced the greater the chance the Civilization can harness the energy from a galaxy.

Of course, I meant to say it's not necessary to "harness" the whole galaxy to be advanced.

Well you laugh, do you live on this planet? How is the UFO phenomenon viewed today by most people. Is it accepted as fact, what do skeptic's say? Usally what you hear is; Those tales are just myths and stories? We are not being visited and there is no evidence? Of course they are myths, so what, so that doesn't mean there is not lot of truth in there somewhere.

The difference is, AFAIK there's no empirical/physical evidence for the old stories but plenty for UFOs.

We can't know what the monks believed themselves, the fact is this book was considered to be factual until the early 17th century. So for me, i wonder about that.

It was probably a casualty of modern rationality.

 

[Kieran]

Of course, I meant to say it's not necessary to "harness" the whole galaxy to be advanced.



The difference is, AFAIK there's no empirical/physical evidence for the old stories but plenty for UFOs.



It was probably a casualty of modern rationality.

We can disagree here without being stubborn to each other's point of view. But the fact is. There can be no debate about the authenticity of the two book's i mentioned. Mainstream Historians are in total agreement these books were made six hundred years and today these book's currently rest in museums at Dublin Ireland. The debate really is about the content; here is the contents of the book
1 Genesis;
2Early history of the Gaels
3Cessair
4Partholón
5Nemed
6Fir Bolg
7Tuatha dé Dannann
8 Milesians
9Roll of the pagan kings of Ireland
10Roll of the christian kings of Ireland

Number 9 and 10 are true without a doubt. There is tons of historical evidence that prove 9 and 10 occurred.

Number 8, The Milesians the only reference to these race outside of Ireland is Spain. So in essence the Book says, The Milesians; Thousands of years ago came to do battle with the Tuatha de Dannan for the island of Ireland. The Tuatha were said to have the ability to shapeshifter and use magic to subdue their enemies. Is there prove; for such a war
There is no historical evidence of tribes coming from areas of Spain to Ireland to do battle at this time and there is no evidence for a war between humans and the Tuatha.

I'm not stupid; i not proclaiming it happened as outlined in the book. But is there any evidence to even to look at or even wonder about?

Maybe; in the last ten years or so it was discovered that the Irish have over 90 per cent of DNA that is similar to Basque DNA. The study concluded that the Irish race including the Welsh race and Scottish race and the English race have varying but high levels of Basque DNA. It pretty much accepted there was no mass migration of Celts to the British Isles. That would account for the High level of Basque DNA that there is.
Most of the sites that were build in Ireland are not actually Celt. They were build by Neolithic farmers according to Mainstream Historians. Ya right, i don't believe that for one moment. And here is why.

At the Newgrange site in Ireland. There is a building that is six thousand years old and there is no way in Hell for me; simple farmer could've build that monument with basic tools or could've understood the nature of the cosmos. Every year the sun Shines through a spot in the wall at a particular location without fail. There is a weird calender on one of the Rocks within the building. I have only ever seen one picture of it on the internet. If i can find i will post.

Back to the Book.

The Milesians settled in Ireland after the War was over according to the Book. The Book proclaims that the Irish are Descendent from the Milesians and not the Celts which has often been assumed. Now you can see; why, i think the Book and the DNA tests are fascinating.

Of course, it doesn't mean there was a war long ago in our past. But the evidence is clear; there was without a doubt a mass migration of peoples from Spain to the British isles many thousands of years ago. For what purpose. Depends who you want to believe. The book gives a reason and mainstream historians have their opinions.

The Milesians were said to be human beings like you or me. The Tuatha lived in Ireland before the War and were not human, but had the appearance of looking human. The Book described the Tuatha.
They were beautiful beings with blonde hair and pale skin and they were said, to be more powerful and stronger than us mere mortals. They were not Gods, though yet, had the ability to use Magic on their enemies. After a long war and many battles. The Tuatha were defeated and they signed a treaty with Milesians.

The Tuatha went Underground or to a world beside or World. These are two versions given to what happened after the Treaty was signed.

Contents 1 to 6 deal with races before the flood and after the Flood and Noah( the guy who build the big boat to save humanity) he came from a race called the Partholónians according to the Book. The flood happened around 8000 to 7,000 years ago and there is a story about a man called Fintán and he spents a year in a cave to avoid the Flood.

There is no hint to what the Flood was within the Book?

So who can tell for sure what it was. Fintán saw later new settlements on the island and fished salmon and witnessed an eagle and a hawk.

In conclusion. Do i believe any of this. I'm opened minded Trajanus without getting too worked up about it. Maybe there is a hint of truth within these stories somewhere.

I personally do see some truth here, however i do realise i might have a culture bias about this stuff. But all i ask is be open minded.

 

[Trajanus]

Maybe; in the last ten years or so it was discovered that the Irish have over 90 per cent of DNA that is similar to Basque DNA. The study concluded that the Irish race including the Welsh race and Scottish race and the English race have varying but high levels of Basque DNA. It pretty much accepted there was no mass migration of Celts to the British Isles. That would account for the High level of Basque DNA that there is.

I think all parts of western Europe were inhabited by "protoeuropeans" who preceeded celtic and later germanic migrations.

At the Newgrange site in Ireland. There is a building that is six thousand years old and there is no way in Hell for me; simple farmer could've build that monument with basic tools or could've understood the nature of the cosmos. Every year the sun Shines through a spot in the wall at a particular location without fail. There is a weird calender on one of the Rocks

Even relatively primitive people could do that. Stonehenge is another example.

They were beautiful beings with blonde hair and pale skin and they were said, to be more powerful and stronger than us mere mortals. They were not Gods, though yet, had the ability to use Magic on their enemies. After a long war and many battles. The Tuatha were defeated and they signed a treaty with Milesians.

So I guess their capabilities were exaggerated.

Contents 1 to 6 deal with races before the flood and after the Flood and Noah( the guy who build the big boat to save humanity) he came from a race called the Partholónians according to the Book. The flood happened around 8000 to 7,000 years ago and there is a story about a man called Fintán and he spents a year in a cave to avoid the Flood.

I don't buy that flood stuff. AFAIK there's no archeological evidence for a massive widespread flood. And a cave is no place to avoid it; a mountain sounds better.

 

[Kieran]

I think all parts of western Europe were inhabited by "protoeuropeans" who preceeded celtic and later germanic migrations.



Even relatively primitive people could do that. Stonehenge is another example.




So I guess their capabilities were exaggerated.



I don't buy that flood stuff. AFAIK there's no archeological evidence for a massive widespread flood. And a cave is no place to avoid it; a mountain sounds better.

That is my point Trajanus, Who were this people before the Celts that arrived from Spain and why is there such a story like this?

Newgrange impossible it was build by farmers. There is thousand of individuals who believe that also. And the evidence suggests otherwise.

There is mythology that comes from the Basque region. They too have legends about the Tuatha and of A king called milesuis, leader of this race, and it been suggested not within the book, that he was the last king of the Fabled island Atlantis. Slighty more advanced maybe this Human race.

Every ancient culture on Earth has tales of some terrible event occurring in the past example the Flood. Makes you Wonder? Unless the melting of the Ice caps 10,000 years ago or less caused it? or something else caused it.
I not a believer, there is no prove, but remain open minded just because of the frequency of the tale.

 

[Trajanus]

That is my point Trajanus, Who were this people before the Celts that arrived from Spain and why is there such a story like this?

I meant protoeuropeans settled all over western Europe, so there's similar DNA.

Newgrange impossible it was build by farmers.

The pyramids were built by mobilized peasant labor. It could've been the same elsewhere, with priests and architects supervising the work.

that he was the last king of the Fabled island Atlantis.

Just something out of Plato's imagination.

Every ancient culture on Earth has tales of some terrible event occurring in the past example the Flood. Makes you Wonder? Unless the melting of the Ice caps 10,000 years ago or less caused it?

Could be a combination of that and imagination.

 

[Kieran]

I meant protoeuropeans settled all over western Europe, so there's similar DNA.



The pyramids were built by mobilized peasant labor. It could've been the same elsewhere, with priests and architects supervising the work.



Just something out of Plato's imagination.



Could be a combination of that and imagination.

" Until recently most mainstream historians had the believe the Irish were Celtic. However DNA testing proves otherwise. A genetic study report was released in 2004, and this genetic report was published by Trinity college Dublin, "the foremost university here. There was also a study done by Stephen Oppenheimer, a Medical Geneticist at the University of Oxford.

He too found that the Basque had more in common with the Irish and the peoples of the British Isles then the Celts.
He Recently published a book called the Origins of the British; His findings have been peer reviewed and accepted.

Now remember what i wrote in a previous post; The Book of Invasions has a number of stories about the Milesians. The Authors( Christen Monks made the claim that the Irish Race were descendants from a race called the Milesians. The origins of this Race? Somewhere in the Mediterranean and Spain is mentioned.

" Ok what is your point? My point is these books theorised "Six hundred years ago to Seven hundred years ago" that the Irish were descendants of a race called the Milesians and they came from Spain. This was not even known about until the last ten years or so. Get me? Today 2010 we know for sure British isles and the peoples who occupy it have more in common with the Basques then any other Peoples from other countries in Europe.

The Basques are the Oldest Proto-European group there is in my Opinion. This would make them different to the Celts who are have a closer linage to the Indo-European races that travelled into Europe from the East. The Celt language is an Indo-European language.

Fact1) not fantasy, real, the Basque people have a distinctly different language to all other languages that are spoken in Europe. That is kind of odd.
Fact2) The Basques have the highest level of RH-Negative Blood (twice more than every other Europeans at 16% )and well as substantially lower levels of type B blood and higher incidence of Type O blood.

There is lot of Differences in the Gene pool and DNA (Trajanus)

The British Isles ( the Irish, Welsh, Scottish, less English people and the Basque peoples) are quiet different to other peoples in Europe and the Blood type RB1 Haplotype has high percentages with these ethnic races then any other culture in Europe.

Now let us move on to the possibility of past Civilizations.

Around 30,000 to 15,000 years ago most of Northern Europe was Covered in Ice due to Ice AGE.

So for, there to be, a number of Humans civilization in the distant past. We theorising this ok, based on what the Book claims and not what has been claimed by other researchers who have claimed we could've have been around for a hell of a lot longer then previously thought. We can also discuss Atlantis without going of topic.

For me this Civilization to flourish and prosper and be strong, it would've had to been situated below the Ice caps of Northern Europe. Southern parts of Europe were warmer.

The Sumerian Civilization And Egyptian Civilization sprung up below Northern Europe because at this time of or history, everyone was living, in hotter climates below Northern Europe. Northern Europe was too Cold and less suitable for farming or to even to live there. The Ice Caps started to melt around 12,000 years ago according to mainstream science.

If there was any civilization located along the coastlines and lowlands of Northern Europe. The melting of the Ice caps in North America and Northern Europe would have caused major floods and most certainly killed lots of people and caused chaos and destruction along the way. So Atlantis, if it Existed, and I'm theorising here would be found below the Ice caps of Northern Europe.

Your Post. Atlantis was something out of Plato's imagination. Factually incorrect: Literally thousands of papers and books have been written about the Subject since the time of Plato. Fantasies and weird theories are usually the order of the day with these Books. I've researched this subject for a couple of years now. And I have an opinion; Atlantis was never about a super human race. People have also theorised Atlantis had advanced technologies.

Advanced technologies could mean anything, doesn't mean this particular civilization was flying around the planet in Spaceships. Plato was born 427-347BC and what he said is;
"A wealthy and powerful technologically advanced Civilization was destroyed by war and natural catastrophe. He, Plato said, Atlantis was west situated in the oceans beyond the Pillars of Hercules.

In Plato's work Timaeus and Critias, Plato states himself this story is true at least five times, and I can't for the life of me understand why Historians dismiss this. He clearly states this information was given to him by his Grandfather and this knowledge was got from the ancient Egyptians( solon). Those are the facts. He never once said this was made up story quiet the contrary.

So if Atlantis, existed, it could have been the Persian Empire he was referring to because in and around 100 years before Plato. There was a war Between the Greeks and the Persian Empire and that is well documented.The Persian empire was emerging power and very large and situated in the middle east.

There was also an volcanic eruption at Thera in 1630 BC which ended the great Minoan Civilisation another possibility.

But We should stick to what was actually said by Plato. "This Island was west pass the Pillars of Hercules. So Referring back to the Book,; Spain is close to Gibraltar (the pillars of Hercules) it means literally the straits of Gibraltar.

Another possibility based on what we know today. And this would be highly speculative.

"There is a large land mass in the Atlantic called the Americas. Why not, it fits the description? "West pass the Pillars of Hercules and this island according to Plato was larger than Libya and Asia put Together. Remember Trajanus, the Greeks were less concerned, then we are, to differentiate between myth and Historical fact.

Timaeus 26; Socrates clearly states his opinion that this story was not a fiction but a true history ( taken from writings of Dr Angie Hobbs phD an expert on Classical Philosophy)

Just to show you one example that a person well-researched about this subject has the same opinions about Atlantis as i do.
Trajanus, people often forget most of the great power houses of Europe, the Middle East and South America in classical times were small nations. The Romans that came from Italy, the Greeks of Greece, the Egyptians and the Mayans of Mexico are Perfect Examples. So don't be automatically assume Atlantis homeland was a big country. Plato said it was an Island, But remember, how dominating the Romans were when they conquered large areas of the world. Due to the fact they were more advanced than the Barbarian tribes of Europe and the nomadic tribes of the Middle east. But still Rome and Italy is a small country geographically.

I wouldn't be surprised if Atlantis was only a mighty seafaring nation. But who were the Milesians then? who can say for sure. But they were only human according to the Book of Invasions.

There is legends about a civilization called Mu in the pacific and there is legends about a Civilization called Lemuria. The Vedic Texts From India those are probably real. So is there any truth contained within any of those legends? Make you mind up yourself and decide do you believe or not. Research usually helps in deciding one's response.

Newgrange has a Astronomical function and Lunar Function. There is no doubt about that as far as I'm concerned
It was build by intelligent, capable, and astute people. Priests? Six thousand years ago. Well there is a history of Priests with the druids but not conclusive prove there was priests during the neolithic times.

They were farmers mainly living in large communities rather than small communities. Architects of course, there must have been someone who envisaged a plan for what the building would look like and the purpose of it.
The problem i have is.

That the level of sophistication that went into building this. Would require that person to have had Astronomical knowledge of the Moon, Sun and the stars. Just being a mere farmer living day by day doesn't cut for me as person who could've build it.

This period was called the "New Stone Age" because of all the stone buildings and they only possessed a basic knowledge of agriculture. There methods of doing farming was primitive by or standards.
To understand this better, visual aids are helpful so here is pictures of the interior of the building at Newgrange.
I have other interesting pictures, but can only post five pictures per post. Some of the other pictures show the interior of the building more clearly.

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[Trajanus]

" Until recently most mainstream historians had the believe the Irish were Celtic. However DNA testing proves otherwise. A genetic study report was released in 2004, and this genetic report was published by Trinity college Dublin, "the foremost university here. There was also a study done by Stephen Oppenheimer, a Medical Geneticist at the University of Oxford.

He too found that the Basque had more in common with the Irish and the peoples of the British Isles then the Celts.
" Ok what is your point? My point is these books theorised "Six hundred years ago to Seven hundred years ago" that the Irish were descendants of a race called the Milesians and they came from Spain.

So maybe the people of the British isles were populated by protoeuropeans from Spain, or elsewhere on the continent. Nothing far out about that.

For me this Civilization to flourish and prosper and be strong, it would've had to been situated below the Ice caps of Northern Europe. Southern parts of Europe were warmer.

The Sumerian Civilization And Egyptian Civilization sprung up below Northern Europe because at this time of or history, everyone was living, in hotter climates below Northern Europe. Northern Europe was too Cold and less suitable for farming or to even to live there. The Ice Caps started to melt around 12,000 years ago according to mainstream science.

But ancient Egyptian civilization only goes back 6-7,000 years.

Your Post. Atlantis was something out of Plato's imagination. Factually incorrect: Literally thousands of papers and books have been written about the Subject since the time of Plato. Fantasies and weird theories are usually the order of the day with these Books. I've researched this subject for a couple of years now. And I have an opinion; Atlantis was never about a super human race. People have also theorised Atlantis had advanced technologies.

Advanced technologies could mean anything, doesn't mean this particular civilization was flying around the planet in Spaceships. Plato was born 427-347BC and what he said is;
"A wealthy and powerful technologically advanced Civilization was destroyed by war and natural catastrophe. He, Plato said, Atlantis was west situated in the oceans beyond the Pillars of Hercules.

In Plato's work Timaeus and Critias, Plato states himself this story is true at least five times, and I can't for the life of me understand why Historians dismiss this. He clearly states this information was given to him by his Grandfather and this knowledge was got from the ancient Egyptians( solon). Those are the facts. He never once said this was made up story quiet the contrary.

But there's no real evidence for it.

So if Atlantis, existed, it could have been the Persian Empire he was referring to because in and around 100 years before Plato. There was a war Between the Greeks and the Persian Empire and that is well documented.The Persian empire was emerging power and very large and situated in the middle east.

The Persian Empire was not an island and it was to the east of Greece not beyond Gibralter.

"There is a large land mass in the Atlantic called the Americas. Why not, it fits the description? "West pass the Pillars of Hercules and this island according to Plato was larger than Libya and Asia put Together. Remember Trajanus, the Greeks were less concerned, then we are, to differentiate between myth and Historical fact.

OK in that case they aren't reliable.

But remember, how dominating the Romans were when they conquered large areas of the world. Due to the fact they were more advanced than the Barbarian tribes of Europe and the nomadic tribes of the Middle east. But still Rome and Italy is a small country geographically.

Actually in a technological sense they weren't very advanced. They copied swords and helmets from Celts and later Persians.

Newgrange has a Astronomical function and Lunar Function. There is no doubt about that as far as I'm concerned
It was build by intelligent, capable, and astute people. Priests? Six thousand years ago. Well there is a history of Priests with the druids but not conclusive prove there was priests during the neolithic times.

The Egyptians began pyramid construction 6,000 years ago.

That the level of sophistication that went into building this. Would require that person to have had Astronomical knowledge of the Moon, Sun and the stars. Just being a mere farmer living day by day doesn't cut for me as person who could've build it.

The Egyptians could orient structures by the stars. A few learned men supervised the work at stonehenge for this purpose too.

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[Kieran]

So maybe the people of the British isles were populated by protoeuropeans from Spain, or elsewhere on the continent. Nothing far out about that.

What have we discussed in the last numbers of post? This was never meant to be far out. The Basques are human. There is a differences between the Basques and other European races. I've presented you with evidence that is worthy of looking at seriously. We also discussed the possibility of an race coming to from Spain to Ireland in the distant past. That might account for the stories within the Book of Invasions.

Later science confirmed later there is a connection with the Basques and British Isles. I find that mighty interesting. Maybe you don't. It doesn't confirm a war between a race that was non human and us. But the book at least confirmed before modern science did, there was peoples from Spain here long before the Celts.


Trajanus, what are you on about. Yes Egyptian civilization is only six thousand years old or 7 thousands years old. So what is your point here?. Like I was discussing, why is it, that most of the earliest advanced Civilizations happened to be below Northern Europe and it was due to the Last ice age i was suggesting

There is no real Evidence. But the fact is Plato believed it was a true story not fictitious take that for what it is worth.

Yes but Plato could've and not saying he did, created a story around real events that happened. There was a war between Persia and Greece 100 years before Plato. A bigger power like Persia against a less stronger nation like Greece. But i was just throwing it out there as a possibility.

Not reliable. Of course not. Because we wouldn't trust respect the history of the Greek culture if we believed that. The fact is myth and historical fact sometimes get mixed together to make a story.

Trajanus, I'm Going to stop now because were not really having a discussion here. Your responses are not adequate and confusing at times. Plus your ideas about the Romans is flawed. Five lines back it not a discussion. I've presented documented and historical evidence to argue my point. Your evidence? Personal opinions.

 

[Trajanus]

Later science confirmed later there is a connection with the Basques and British Isles. I find that mighty interesting. Maybe you don't. It doesn't confirm a war between a race that was non human and us.

Right, it mixed fact with fantasy.

Plus your ideas about the Romans is flawed.

No, they did copy from their enemies even the celts.

I've presented documented and historical evidence to argue my point. Your evidence?

The burden of proof is on you. But back on topic. If Lazar was not ingenuous, what was his purpose?

 

[Kieran]

Right, it mixed fact with fantasy.



No, they did copy from their enemies even the celts.



The burden of proof is on you. But back on topic. If Lazar was not ingenuous, what was his purpose?

Well if you believe it is all fantasy and less fact. Your entitled to your opinion,

The Romans and Greek fought their enemies the same way until the 4th century BC. Using the Greek Phalanx. The Hastati, a new method of fighting, was introduced into all ranks of the Roman army after 4th Century BC

The Romans also had a talent for organising the army for battles and long and hard campaigns. They were well feed and trained.

The Roman army were given the best equipment that was around at the time ( armour, shields, swords) and didn't matter how lower down the ranks you were. You got the same equipment as the guy who was higher up in rank. That is what made the Roman army superior to their rivals.

The Celt never wore helmets in battle. Maybe on rare occasions.

They were ceremonial helmets, that occasionally, might be worn by the leaders to signify rank. There is no debate here, Celts Helmets were never found all that much in places were battles happened.

They wore very little armour and painted their faces with paint. The Persians are the same rarely wore helmets if at all and their armies wore very little armour. Completely different to the Roman Army in every way.

 

[Trajanus]

The Roman army were given the best equipment that was around at the time ( armour, shields, swords) and didn't matter how lower down the ranks you were. You got the same equipment as the guy who was higher up in rank.

I think auxiliary equipment was inferior to legionary equipment.

The Celt never wore helmets in battle....They were ceremonial helmets, that occasionally, might be worn by the leaders to signify rank. There is no debate here, Celts Helmets were never found all that much in places were battles happened.

Of course not; the victors would've taken them. But they definitely had some. First century CE Roman helmets are called Imperial Gallic i.e. based on those of the gauls or celts.

The Persians are the same rarely wore helmets if at all

LOl, many examples have been found. Mid/late third century Roman helmets are called Romano-Sassanian as they were copied from those of Persia.

and their armies wore very little armour. Completely different to the Roman Army in every way.

Even their elephants wore armor. You should read Sassanian Elite Cavalry 224-642 and Rome's Enemies; Parthians and Sassanid Persians.

 

[Kieran]

I think auxiliary equipment was inferior to legionary equipment.



Of course not; the victors would've taken them. But they definitely had some. First century CE Roman helmets are called Imperial Gallic i.e. based on those of the gauls or celts.



LOl, many examples have been found. Mid/late third century Roman helmets are called Romano-Sassanian as they were copied from those of Persia.



Even their elephants wore armor. You should read Sassanian Elite Cavalry 224-642 and Rome's Enemies; Parthians and Sassanid Persians.

It's still the Roman ARMY with different branches. Every Army has superior trained forces and then you have the regular army. MY Point is right and i stand by it. The Lower guy to the top guy were supplied the same equipment that fitted the branch of the army they were assigned to.

They were imperial Gallic and so-called but it was a representation of the Amy that invaded Gaul ( France) and Northern Europe and signified families of the Roman elite. There is rumours it was adopted from Celt Helmets that is not true. Celt Helmets used in Battle looked like German World War 1 helmets.

The Persian army wore no helmets in the main.You need to revise your history. Prince and Sultans probably did and Elite forces . The Romans copied the Greek Helmet and that is the fact. Take a look a the Roman and the Greeks and Their Enemies helmet. Which Helmet looks like the Romans helmet to you?

Elephants wore Armour. Yes, but it was light armour just like Persians wore. That is fact, i never discounted Elephants wore Armour or that the Persians wore Armour. I'm discounting the possibility they took ideas from the Persians in how they made there helmets and armour.

 

[Trajanus]

It's still the Roman ARMY with different branches. Every Army has superior trained forces and then you have the regular army. MY Point is right and i stand by it. The Lower guy to the top guy were supplied the same equipment that fitted the branch of the army they were assigned to.

No, officers had fancier and better made stuff.

They were imperial Gallic and so-called but it was a representation of the Amy that invaded Gaul ( France) and Northern Europe and signified families of the Roman elite.

I think it was standard issue; one found in Israel.

The Persian army wore no helmets in the main.You need to revise your history. Prince and Sultans probably did and Elite forces .

Sultans? Lol, I'm talking about 3rd century Persia.

I'm discounting the possibility they took ideas from the Persians in how they made there

helmets and armour.

See the books; there were Romano-Sassanian helmets. The Romans copied a great deal--ships, swords,helmets the draconarius etc.

 

[Kieran]

No, officers had fancier and better made stuff.



I think it was standard issue; one found in Israel.



Sultans? Lol, I'm talking about 3rd century Persia.



See the books; there were Romano-Sassanian helmets. The Romans copied a great deal--ships, swords,helmets the draconarius etc.[/QUO

It wasn't a fashion parade. Fancier stuff? Every Roman foot soldier was issued the same gear( eguipment) as a General or Captain. Every person, who was a member, of the Roman Army carried a sword and a small blade. There was units separate to the Hastati, Auxilliary infantary and the Praetorian guard callled the Milite. The carried both a sword and a long spear.

Imperial Gallic was a standard issue helmet. It was worn by he Romans in 1st Century AD. Around this time they were still in Europe fighting the Barbarian tribes of Germania, a second helmet was made in 3st century AD that looked like the Imperial Gallic called the Imperial Italic G
There was around seven Helmets produced and made during the years of the Roman Empires reign over Europe and the Middle east.

There might be indeed be a Celt influence with some of the Roman helmets.
The Roman helmets, the "Coolus and Montefortino" are similar to the Celt "Coolus" design.

Historians still argue, did the Romans copy the Celts or was it just, a Helmet design that was common among Europeans. But there is no disputing this fact/ Celts hardly ever wore helmets in battle. The Ancient Writer; Tactius, wrote the British Celts and Germans did not wear helmets in Battle. In France( Gaul) only a handful of helmets were ever unearthed belonging to the Celts. They belonged to the upper class warriors like i mentioned in my previous post. This is the interesting part. The largest concentration of finds that were Celt Helmets belonged to a tribe called the Senones Tribe. This tribe lived in Northern Italy and was separate to the Gauls of France.

Sultans means "Ruler" or "Kings of Kings" Yes 3th century Persia/ your point? Persia was ruled by the Sassanian Dynasty after the fall of the Parthians.

Two of the Rulers of the Sassanian Empire were Turkish sultans. Sultans is not a name, it is a title given to a prince, king, or someone with high respect.

There is no evidence the Romans copied the Sassanians. I've researched it and can't find solid evidence for that been true. I did however discover you might be partly right in what you claimed. The Romans were influenced by the Celts.

How did we get from one subject to the Romans Lol

 

[Trajanus]

Sultans means "Ruler" or "Kings of Kings"

In Persia it was shah; the Sassanian ruler's name Shapur or Sapor meant son of a king.

Two of the Rulers of the Sassanian Empire were Turkish sultans

The Sassanian period was from 3rd to 7th century or so; the Turks came later.

There is no evidence the Romans copied the Sassanians.

That's what the books say--Romano-Sassanian helmets.

How did we get from one subject to the Romans Lol

I tried to get it back to Lazar.