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Michael Horn & The Billy Meier Contacts

Do you believe the Billy Meier Contacts and Evidence Are Real?

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    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not Sure

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    1

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He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

I just want to point out again that ZTGR, again, has typed his head off and still has not responded to the issues (which he asked for) that I presented to him 2 pages ago. Seems he'd rather talk about me then to me.

Are you sure you arent He Who Shall Not Be Named??

I'd like to know what comparison was shown that made people chuckle, as there's never been a chuckle before when I showed this:
meier_1.jpg

deck1.jpg


I'll bet this wasnt the comparison you got at He Who Shall Not Be Named?'s party of propagand...I mean lecture. Considering Meier's shows no real detail and mine shows a well structured craft...mine also doesnt have a warped hull like many of Meier's do. Take note mine is also shot in blue sky, not Meier's overcast days which are so good at hiding supportive strings. Mine is also not shot into the sun, nor attached to a tree. It's a painfully simple shot, and done with nothing but a camera, model and string.

If you cannot see the absolute similarites, (including that niether mine nor Meier's have *any* atmospheric distance haze) then there's no need for you to "feel" for me, as I feel much more for you. As far as I'm concerned, all his shot has over mine is a prettier backdrop. Both craft are in similar focus, the buildings behind are similar focus, and I personally believe the objects are approximately just as far away, perhaps Meier's a tad more distant then mine, not by very much though. The point was made, and like David said, it really doesnt prove anything but that I can duplicate fake photos.

You also need to realize that Meier's photos you see online are likely scans of lithograph prints or books, as thats all thats been available. This too obscures the judgement of the comparison, as mine is a direct scan. I duplicated the Meier photos as he asked. I find it amusing that when I did them even he said they were "very good", now, they arent.

It's not surprising as he talks out the other side of his face all the time. He also has some delusion he's "playing" us, when we talk about the case in message boards and such. The fact is, and anyone bothering to read it, is that we have the factual data and hard questions that he's refused to address...he's the only one looking like a fool. He can delude himself as much as he wants, it's all out there in black and white. And soon, there will be a major release of an information clearing house on this whole matter, so we can move on to more important work and just refer people with questions there.

As far as He Who Shall Not Be Named?'s mention of the police reports, as the US media representative he should have that data and he doesnt apparently, as he dropped like a stone from Victor's list after a weeklong flurry of emails. He stopped cold after that question. We're waiting, and others have also called him out on the list for it. No reply.

Of course you can reply to this, and address it and the other points made to you 2 pages ago, or youre going to ignore it and continue to say whatever you want. I dont personally care what you want to believe either, but if you want to argue points, make them. If you dont, then accept the fact you just want to believe more then you want to know.

I dunno, maybe you just want to be a sockpuppet for He Who Shall Not Be Named?.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

I can't believe so much effort is being spent on this case. I am no expert when it comes to photos but you can clearly see some of these are so fake. The night time one with the tree and the car, what a joke. You can tell that the tree and the car are of a small size, and what a coincedence the car and the tree are out of focus. If it was in focus you would clearly be able to see that they were of small size. The lazer gun lol looks like it was made at school, being held by some sci-fi b-movie chick lol. And the photos that show the dino's, people still believe this case!!!!!!!! i have yet to see the earthquake photo, i cant find it at the moment. I feel you should end this disscussion. I can understand David Biedny and everyone else getting really pi**ed off with this, as i am too. I say just forget it until he comes up with solid evidence that this has happend, and i don't think that will happen. If people want to believe this crap, let them believe it. I would rather be looking at the more interesting credible paranormal cases that are out there.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

I totally agree there' FAR better and more important items. However as usual not many people think about the long term repercussions of these old and well documented fakes being dredged up again and again. When you have this kind of garbage being left to run rampant without challenge, it does nothing but drag down all of the credible cases in the public view.

So thats why so much effort goes in. Youre right, it should long be put to bed, and when another week's worth of work in documentation is done, it will be in bed...at least for me. I wont really have anymore to say. The info will be out there, where anyone can access it all, at any time. All I gotta do is send or post a link.

I have some stuff going in there that no one has ever seen, and should definitely answer any question to the credibility of the photos.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

Cool!! i will look forward to that:) I guess you are right. These people need to be shown up. I am more annoyed with the people who beleive him and feed his ego. I guess like any cult they are easily lead people who feel kind of lost in life, so they cling on to something like this, and then they feel apart of something big. Its a shame really. I wonder if billy has gone as far as saying stuff like, the aliens want me have to have sex with all the women here so the aliens can take the babies away and bring them up in the sci-fi b-movie way lol ;D
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

Well looks like I touched a nerve...okay, I did read the IBM papers and Vogel is in them all over the place as a patent holder. Not sure I know how to post the pdfs or the photos from the rep's site. Maybe I can send them to someone's email here who knows how to do the posting.

Or email me at ztgr@yahoo.com and I'll forward them...post them here then if it works.

If the docs are legit and they show Vogel was way legit...then you should do the honorable thing and say you were wrong...otherwise you would come off the way you claim the rep does.

Now I read the stuff here from some months ago...with the rep and everyone going at it..that was then. The stuff I see on his site doesn't seem crazy...and the presentations I saw were not...people asked lots of questions, etc. Usually when people lie you can tell...by the way they talk and try to make up an answer. I've seen 4-5 hours and it seemed straight to me...and the audience.

And I don't mean to be a big defender...the guy isn't here to defend himself...and I don't know about alll your challenges, etc.

Also...in fairness, I saw the presentations and the pics. You can see a couple on the rep's homepage. Really...I say I'm pro Meier and a devil's advocate...haven't attacked anyone here. But the photos on the homepage and the ones at the lecture from Meier show way more detail than Jeff's....don't take a fancy analysis to see it. He showed more close up detail shots and the film...I'd say the film cinches it for me...broad daylight, REAL right close up with lights flashing...details of the UFo were clear and it was moving.

Also...Stevens sent around an email explaining what he witnessed...first hand with a attempt to kill Meier. I personally have trouble with just calling people who disagree with you liars...I know the rep's had fights all over the place...but he's got a ton of stuff out there and...I haven't seen no proof that it's lies. Lots of it's from the other people who did all the invetigating....

Okay so there's a bunch of people here still steaming and angry...but that's no more facts stuff than opinion. I don't know if everything all the Meier people say is true so I look at the stuff myself...and I can tell pretty good when a guy gets up for three hours and talks...looks like off the cuff and referring to the text on the screen.

And I don't think anyone yet answered why Dr. Froening would endorse Meier...he is a astrophysics defense guy. I saw a witness page linked to thefly webpage...lots of people there saying it's real true...if they are all liars it has to be proved...not just said against them.

I don't think I'm that different than most people...also the more you critic the guy the more sympathy...if you just call names, etc.

Someone can email me for the IBM stuff.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

Told ya he's skirt every point.

Anyway, you can believe whatever you want. If you think that film footage shows a light on a craft, youre completely out of your mind. It's nothing but a glint of sunlight off the model when it's facet rotates to catch the sun's angle. If you truly look at the footage more then once you'll see the only "light" that appears is the same direction as the sunlight. There has also been a string detected on the "UFO". But I'm sure youre past that kind of explaination.

You'll believe anything Stevens has to say? You do realize he's been convicted of child molesation right? That he served time in prison for it? That he plead guilty to it?

Yeah, loads of credibility there.

But why bother explaining this stuff to you, you wont address anything anyway. I'd say if the rest of us consider the study of the UFO enigma a serious one, we're better off without you.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

In reality if vogels hold those patterns or not it doesn't going to prove nothing, only that he had them which was the original question if he have them or not?. Does that is going to make the hoax real? NO WAY!!

Lets try one more time again (out the 1,000,000,000) times: (never gets and straight answer) ::)
1: you are saying the pictures are good enough for you right?
care to comment on these pictures: the laser gun (toy), mini car & mini tree (toy) near and object, over the van (100% close to the camera object), dinosaurs (proved 100% to be from a painting ), San Francisco earthquake (proved 100% to be from a magazine), the girls photos (proved 100% to be from a TV set). Don't even try the MIB excuses because then the very photos you are saying are good also goes into the manipulation group. So that makes them all fake. BTW meier himself said they were all manipulated (faked) so you are aware that those photos you call good were manipulated too right?

2: the majority (if not all) the predictions was not from the time they say he wrote them and they can't prove otherwise, on the other hand ike42 proved 100% a lot of them was available in the media around the time (days, weeks) he could get the information and not way before as they say he wrote them but they can't prove that. Another coincidence of the "we can't prove it" excuse? How many are out there? you need to be a little more realistic. why not prediction of the sunami? Was 100% worst that a lot of the suppose prediction he wrote. Makes you wonder... ::)

3: Again a picture showing an object in the air doesn't prove nothing, was it hard to do at the time it was done? Maybe, was it impossible to do? NO. again what is the prove in this case that makes you think wow this is really extraterrestrial, No way humans could have done this. Wow! Please show me a single prove that makes you go that way. A person that seems to know a lot about the case and looks like he "thinks" is true is the best you got? That is his job you know, meier himself can tell him tomorrow, listen I made all that up and still he will not be ready to loose everything and admit it too, as that's his life, job etc. But trust me deep inside he knows is all "BS" yet it makes money. I mean he even said it in the same email you posted.

"A recent example of how easy it is to get these guys to promote my site - and events - is when I sent a supposed "Press Release" to a closed email list they were on. Naturally, Ritzmann and Biedney took the bait and proceeded to give me a lot of free (griping!) coverage, not only accounting for more hits to my site but also to the attendance of the event. As they say, you can't buy promotion like this (at least not on my budget)." WHAT ELSE YOU NEED TO SEE? Come on dare to tell us is not all about money >:(

Again please try to defend or explain the pictures I mentioned here and that comment.
"JUST TRY" ::)

The aliens gave meier stones so he could sell them when he didn't have money (were those stones from their "planet" or did they steal them from this planet?) Yet they couldn't give him a little piece of their toilet paper so meier can prove his tale. (No, a little piece of toilet paper cannot destroy a planet, or create a World War III.) That's just to show you there is a lot way or prove they could have done. Didn't have to be technology and wasn't it going to force beliefs in anyone but would prove something was going. Hmm if no-one stole it as the supposed "metal sample" that vogels said has strange properties which didn't mean much btw just watch the video again and pay more attention. then ask yourself this "meier still has metal samples at his house from another planet, why doesn't MH get a little sample to be analyzed and get the 1 million dollars reward that is out there if he proves it. Doesn't that make you wonder? Because if it doesn't....... ::)

Guess what? Like the "negatives" (or a real photo, not a scan of a photo of another photo) that will never happen. Instead of focusing on photos (and like MH said himself this case is not about the photos ;D when he can't defend them as they are too fake obviously) just read all the excuses in this case, it's pathetic.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

ZTGR said:
Well looks like I touched a nerve...okay, I did read the IBM papers and Vogel is in them all over the place as a patent holder. Not sure I know how to post the pdfs or the photos from the rep's site. Maybe I can send them to someone's email here who knows how to do the posting.

Or email me at ztgr@yahoo.com and I'll forward them...post them here then if it works.

If the docs are legit and they show Vogel was way legit...then you should do the honorable thing and say you were wrong...otherwise you would come off the way you claim the rep does.

Listeners: I've requested a copy of the documentation and will post a follow-up when David and I have had a look at it.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

Howcome there's a discrepancy between the patents viewable online and the IBM records? Does a company not list there main researchers as 'co-founders' of the patent?
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

TerraX said:
Howcome there's a discrepancy between the patents viewable online and the IBM records? Does a company not list there main researchers as 'co-founders' of the patent?

IBM's policy isn't so much the issue. Rather, it's the issue of whether there are indeed patents in Vogel's name, and the documents ZTGR supplied indicates that they do indeed exist. I see nothing in the material to indicate that they're fakes, and I'm glad that clears up one question.

So folks don't misunderstand, the only concern we had here is that we were unable to locate information on these patents online, period.

That doesn't, however, prove anything about the Meier claims. In fact, ZTGR sent me two photos that are clearly no better than anything else the Meier camp has had to offer.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

I dont think the patents prove anything either. Although Horn claims I have "slandered" Vogel, I have done no such thing (but how typical of his wide spewing attacks). I have spoken to more then a few people who knew him to be a very kind religious man.

My outlook and statements have always been that Vogel was NOT a metallurgist. He also delved into the very sketchy area of crystal healing and the like head first. In essence this overshadowed his scientific accomplishments in luminescence, at least in what I have seen. I think he might have been a brilliant man, but he also partook of a lot of New Age hocus pocus. And no, I dont think he was the guy to have study the Meier metal. He might have believed genuinely in what he was doing, or not, I really dont know. I've been told for years by scientists and medical doctors that crystal healing is nothing more then snake oil.

Check out some really expensive oil...in the for sale section:
The Legacy of Marcel Vogel

Look at James Deardorff, he's also a very intelligent and accomplished scholar and Professor in Meteorology, but he's definitely no imaging expert as evident by his website and the backwards logic of his explainations of photographic focus distances, etc. (Using his formula, someone ought to challenge him to duplicate the photos-HA!) He's so deep into the Meier trash can he'll never get out.

Just goes to show as far as I'm concerned, that the old adage of people with book smarts can be devoid common sense.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

Mr. Steinberg,

For what it's worth, here's what I received from the rep:


> Don't be lazy!
>
> www.freepatentsonline.com
>
> Patent # 3,178,580
> M. J. Vogel
> Recent IBM Patents April and May 1965
> IBM JOURNAL JULY 1965 Page 351
> Means for Producing Radiation Induced
> Electroluminescence
> Original source:
> http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/094/
> ibmrd0904R.pdf
>
> Patent # 3,178,611
> M. J. Vogel
> Recent IBM Patents April and May 1965
> IBM JOURNAL JULY 1965 Page 351
> Direct Current Electroluminescent Phosphors
> Original source:
> http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/094/
> ibmrd0904R.pdf
>
> Patent # 3,046,540
> F. A. Litz and M. J. Vogel
> Recent IBM Patents July through September 1962
> IBM JOURNAL JANUARY 1963 Page 94
> Electro-Optical translator
> Original source:
> http://www.research.ibm.com/journal/rd/071/
> ibmrd0701R.pdf
>
> Patent # 3,100,844
> M. J. Vogel

You wrote me the following...
>"I have no problems with those documents, pending deep analysis
>from any experts who might care to look at them.
>
> Vogel's patents, however, do not make the Meier case
> genuine. Let's
> not misunderstand that.
>
> As to the photos, they are clearly faked, just like
> all the other
> Meier photos we've seen."
>

All I can say again is...you have made a big thing about Vogel credibility...because if he was a real expert then the analysis on the film is very important. It sure doesn't make the case false! This seems to go with the idea of the skeptics that...good evidence (and experts) is the same as no evidence (and experts).

Now that all the patent information confirms what they claimed about Marcel Vogel...I think you have to retract your attack...and apologize. Looking at the pages here...you guys made a very big deal about it...like it was pivotal to the case credibility. Now you say it doesn't matter...not really much integrity in that.

I have to say...as a Meier supporter and devil's advocate...that I am not surprised that you were wrong. There's just too much information out there that supports Meier...and not enough that holds up your complaints. Can you really say that David or Jeff are in the same league as Vogel...and where's their proof and high level of credentials? When you watch the Vogel video and listen to his description...you know he's knowledgeable and telling the truth...if you're fair. The patents should cinch that now.

I didn't know that an interest in crystals negated...his credentials...why? Does an interest in UFos harm your credibility?

And you now say again ALL the photos are clearly faked...but not any proof...just an opinion...do you claim to be a photo expert too? Have you seen all 1,000 photographs...?

But...it raises good questions...like why we should believe David when he says that all of Meier's evidence is a fake too...seems the metals aren't...and that Meier faked a photograph on purpose with a enlarger? I am telling people to look at the forum here at work...and so far your arguing doesn't look good in our group. Some people never heard of the case before...just going on what's written here. and then they go to the other pro sites and compare.

And Wendel Stevens letter about the attacks on Meier and the UN diplomat who's on video for Meier too...if all you guys can do is call people names...you lose the argument. So with the patent stuff being true is the rep still a compulsive liar...and is Meier still one...and Stevens, etc.? Do you say the UN woman is lying too?

I don't see any reasoning to logic that people could...or would...do such a elaborate hoax for no reason except to fight with skeptics. It doesn't make sense...it would have to be for some very big money or something...cause it would also cost big money...but nobody proves that.

And David says that Meier did have helpers so...can he prove it? And doesn't it REALLY mean that even David knows...that all of this is amazing for one person...and if one person...then of course it's real?

I hope you all have better answers...for why you have attacked all these people and each time the truth seems to be what they said...and not what you claimed. Go ahead and attack me too if you want to...I hope you don't...but I don't think you have much going now except your anger...at being wrong...about something that you guys made a big deal of...and now just making excuses to cover for it.

Two last things...you should post the two photos I sent you and let people decide...since you let Jeff post what he thought was favorable...even though on big screen it isn't. Even when we look at the photos I sent you from the rep site... and compare with Jeff's on good screeens here...there's no comparison in detail for sure.

We got the DVD set here this morning and started to watch it...saw Stevens and some of the Swiss guy...skipped the rep's show for nowcause I saw it before. Both of these guys were good...even showed some of the other UFo photos from people over there.

Okay...enough for now...put up the photos and get honest opinions from the guys here.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

P.S. We played the film of the UFo where the light question is. Not everyone back from lunch but here's the breakdown now...8 people say there are two lights that can be seen coming from the UFo...1 person says they are not sure...1 no comment.

No one believes it's a model...too good for the time film was made in 1970's...don't see string. Okay...just will say that these people are in a tech field...3 of the 8 who see lights don't believe in UFos to begin with. They had a hard time with the film...cause it didn't look fake technically.

Some want to read more of the Meier claims...so looks like we'll end up discussing prophecies here...VERY unlikely topic. Also some are reading the entire forum in this...details in Meier photos simply better though...no disagreement there.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

ZTGR said:
P.S. We played the film of the UFo where the light question is. Not everyone back from lunch but here's the breakdown now...8 people say there are two lights that can be seen coming from the UFo...1 person says they are not sure...1 no comment.

No one believes it's a model...too good for the time film was made in 1970's...don't see string. Okay...just will say that these people are in a tech field...3 of the 8 who see lights don't believe in UFos to begin with. They had a hard time with the film...cause it didn't look fake technically.

Some want to read more of the Meier claims...so looks like we'll end up discussing prophecies here...VERY unlikely topic. Also some are reading the entire forum in this...details in Meier photos simply better though...no disagreement there.

Let's make this short and sweet.

The dispute about Vogel was strictly whether his patents are real nor not. In any case, Vogel's patents don't necessarily make him an expert at photography, even though he did optical-related work.

Now about the reality of Meier's photos, if you check these forums, you'll see a very, very detailed analysis of one of those photos from David Biedny, along with files that demonstrate the accuracy of his statements. David says they are fake and he has the credentials as a photo imaging expert to show that what he says is compelling.

Jeff Ritzmann has also analyzed Meier's photos and found them wanting, and others have done so as well.

The fact that the Meier camp has no negatives to offer makes further analysis difficult, other than the obvious surface flaws.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

Let's just say that this may be a battle...to win the opinions of others who read this.

Post the Meier photos I sent side by side with Jeff's...let people out there decide...so far no contest. still too many experts have gone pro on the Meier stuff...if you have two experts con...okay...but it may come down to the challenge to duplicate for David...Jeff tried. let people decide if it helps David's argument just to say it's a deliberate fake...when it could be an accident...until he duplicates.

So far you don't win points here...as I said some people not even into UFos...just using their eyes...plus tech experience too...also reading the stuff on other sites.

One guy said that the fact that a bunch of people...in 2006...are trying to make stuff look as good as a guy from 1970s...that alone impresses for Meier.

Even if I shut up...you have your work cut out for you with more people now...and they are now interested in the Meier thing because of the negatives here. Maybe the rep is right too...bad publicity is...publicity...there's some saying about it.

Still say post the Meier shots against Jeff's...up to you.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

ZTGR said:
Let's just say that this may be a battle...to win the opinions of others who read this.

Post the Meier photos I sent side by side with Jeff's...let people out there decide...so far no contest. still too many experts have gone pro on the Meier stuff...if you have two experts con...okay...but it may come down to the challenge to duplicate for David...Jeff tried. let people decide if it helps David's argument just to say it's a deliberate fake...when it could be an accident...until he duplicates.

So far you don't win points here...as I said some people not even into UFos...just using their eyes...plus tech experience too...also reading the stuff on other sites.

One guy said that the fact that a bunch of people...in 2006...are trying to make stuff look as good as a guy from 1970s...that alone impresses for Meier.

Even if I shut up...you have your work cut out for you with more people now...and they are now interested in the Meier thing because of the negatives here. Maybe the rep is right too...bad publicity is...publicity...there's some saying about it.

Still say post the Meier shots against Jeff's...up to you.

You're right. No contest. The Meier photos are obvious fakes.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

I never got caught up in the whole patten deal because I found it pointless, so no comment there, other than the findings will be used against critics of the case. This should be no surprise. I wasn't one to use it in any of my arguments.

I decided to make a huge edit. Converting is a huge issue it seems with Tiger and MH. Many who get this far in the thread will have already seen the critic's point of view go un-address many times. If numbers on your side is what is desired, try addressing the points made time and time again instead of ignoring them. If you can demolish the skeptical arguments, that will increase the believabilty of the case.

I decided to say little else until I see the issues that the critics of the case brought up dealt with instead of ignored. See previous pages and address the evidence that indicates fraud. If the MIB excuse is to be used, good luck with your converting. All you'll get is ones not worth having.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

Just as a side note, ZTGR STILL refuses to address the issues...what...2 pages ago now? (EDIT: More then 2 pages ago...page 38!!!)

I posted a side-by-side of what I was asked to replicate. Do you see it? Now you want to compare another, which is a more detailed model to make your point? Thats about the lamest thing I have ever seen.

I gave you points when you said we had no clear cut arguments...you ignore them.

I gave you side by side comparisons of what I was told to duplicate...you ignore them.

And, Vogel has nothing to do with the photos. He did the examination of the alledged metal. I point out that he'd become involved in crystal healing with all it's questionable claims and it's gurus. Vogel was NOT a metallurgist. Yet another issue you refuse to address.

Here's another comparable shot:
foto-209.jpeg

deck3.jpg


Not that you'll do an honest comparison of like shots, I'm sure you'd rather use one that isnt a balanced comparison to make you point. The fact is, this is comparible.

You also go from the notion that the model itself is the issue. It's not. It's the aspect of the shot itself.

So, I'll leave you to ignore this as well as the comments this page and 2 pages ago. Until you address them, youre all wet. You ignore more facts then anyone I have ever seen.
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

"And David says that Meier did have helpers so...can he prove it?"

Can you prove he didn't have helpers?

1. Who is the person that photographed meiers holding the toy gun?
2. Who is the person with 70's curly hair style holding the toy gun?
3. Who was meier talking to in the WCUFO video, while he is on his knees misleading the view?

Let me take a wild guess here, it was the "ALIENS" right? ::)
That leads more towards that he did have helpers than that he didn't is it?
 
He Who Shall Not Be Named? & The Billy Meier Contacts

Gene - Frank here,

I'm the guy who doesn't believe in UFOS and extraterrestrials AND I
have a problem with your answers here. I don't know WHAT the heck I'm
looking at but I don't get that it's a model. We've spent a few hours
over lunches - and I am not going to get into this much - and we put
the photos up on the large screen (and the dvd). Went back and forth
with Jeff Ritzmann's photos and we're siding with the Tiger-man here
on which are better. NOT saying that these are from outer space, I
still have BIG doubts about that, but this ain't anything I know about
and my father was in the Air Force.

If I was Jeff I would have tried to duplicate the close up, detailed
shots and end the debate as quick as possible. The Swiss guy has a
bunch of close up and/or multiple object shots at Michael Horn's site
and we saw others on the dvds. It's probably frustrating as hell but
otherwise you're doing apples and oranges. And the film is not an
amateur job, sorry, no model on a string that I can figure.

I find all this too freaky and I WISH that you were right and I could
just accept your 'They're all fakes' comment at face value. Whatever
the Swiss guy did I can't do it. MAYBE with effects but it wouldn't
look the same.

Might check this out more at home, maybe borrow the dvds sometime and
think about it. Right now it kind of is a bit too much for my brain.

You and Tiger-man can hash the rest out and we can follow it later.
Good luck.

Frank

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Okay...if they want to say more they can join the forum...looks like I'm a paranormal converter here now. The other thing you're up against is...the rep's site's become higher profile and...with the DVDs, books...you're not as visible with your argument. I think you
better look at the weak links in it...can't just say fake and not show it.

So I don't go on too long here...what UFo case do you think is full of better stuff than Meier?
 
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