Michio Kaku vs SETI: ET communication

[Ezechiel]

Pretty obvious at this stage of the ET search game that the SETI radio signal detection strategy has been obsolete for quite a while. Searching for similar type 0 civilizations like us expecting them to blast out radio signals is a ridiculous waste of money... or it may just be a cost effective way to divert attention from real phenomenon. Using high energy radio signals for communication purposes is about to be phased out here anyways.... 100 year life span of that technology lol. Everything is getting wired up (hello internet) or wified.

Where is the broadband search initiative ? well you can't have one unless you've zeroed in on who you want to talk to. Type 1 (planetary) civilizations makes sense since relatively speaking, they are not too far away from us technology wise. As per Michio Kaku, speculating on galactic information transport using internet-like strategies (multi-band disassembly, re-assembly) is one hell of a challenge but may be achievable using super computers eventually yielding a snippet. yikes !

At our stage of development, just building a plan enabling us to detect intelligent activity on a galactic scale is still decades away. Using Michio Kaku's civilization scale (0 -> 3) you'd think each level would have a different cosmic signature. IMHO, defining these signatures should be priority number one instead of rushing with Allen telescope arrays to find a potential microscopic needle in the hay

BTW...detecting type 2 civilization (solar) using specialized telescopes would be a good idea. These guys directly suck up the energy of a star to power their civilization... so solar energy output discrepancies not due to black holes may point the way.

Problem with SETI is an earth-centric, static, religious, 'politically-correct' viewpoint where mankind is on top of the sentient stack. Using a structured approach 'a la Michio' where we are at the bottom of the stack is the way to go. We are the ants lol.

 

[Trajanus]

Pretty obvious at this stage of the ET search game that the SETI radio signal detection strategy has been obsolete for quite a while. Searching for similar type 0 civilizations like us expecting them to blast out radio signals is a ridiculous waste of money... or it may just be a cost effective way to divert attention from real phenomenon.

At the very least, the government is not going to tell anyone the whole effort is unnecessary.

Problem with SETI is an earth-centric, static, religious, 'politically-correct' viewpoint where mankind is on top of the sentient stack. Using a structured approach 'a la Michio' where we are at the bottom of the stack is the way to go. We are the ants lol.

Right. The few thousand years of civilization here is nothing compared to the possible duration of civilizations from older star systems.

 

[Kandinsky]

Pretty obvious at this stage of the ET search game that the SETI radio signal detection strategy has been obsolete for quite a while. Searching for similar type 0 civilizations like us expecting them to blast out radio signals is a ridiculous waste of money... or it may just be a cost effective way to divert attention from real phenomenon.

BTW...detecting type 2 civilization (solar) using specialized telescopes would be a good idea. These guys directly suck up the energy of a star to power their civilization... so solar energy output discrepancies not due to black holes may point the way.

Nice post but don't forget that Kaku is only presenting a a newish framework to think with. His speculation is grander and more evocative than many scientists, nevertheless it's still speculation. That's no criticism btw.

I'm right with you about SETI...it's looking like a wasted opportunity and maybe time to cut losses for a new approach? A few weeks back, I read that SETI has/had the highest ratio of salary to program of any organisation in the US. Don't know if that still stands, but it's no incentive for the guys to try something new.

Keppler is my favourite bet for discovering evidence of technology elsewhere. Although it's not 'advanced life,' Freeman Dyson reckons we'd be better focusing SETI money on local bodies and I agree. Titan, Europa, Mars? An amateur astronomer on ATS (yeah I said it!) has a very cool idea to look at the Lagrangian Points for ET satellites. He isn't just shooting the breeze either, last time he mentioned it he was testing the equipment. Back in the 50s a handful of 'dark satellites' were reported by East and West...one or two remained unidentified and disappeared from orbit iirc so maybe it isn't that wild an idea?!

 

[NTS]

Some of these ideas have already been tried, albeit on a small scale. There have been efforts to find Dyson Spheres and ET probes at Lagrange points. Currently Harvard University has an observatory looking for laser signals. And SETI scientists are trying to work out ways of detecting spread-spectrum signals, but as was mentioned above this is very difficult to do unless you know in advance what you're looking for. So the people involved in SETI are not quite as narrow-minded as portrayed. Also the actual amount of money devoted exclusively to SETI is small. Most SETI data is gathered from instruments doing conventional astronomy, and even the Allen Telescope Array is not used exclusively for SETI.

The analogy of a drunk looking for his keys under a streetlight is wrong. We don't know if there are any keys, or where they might be. It makes sense to look in the easiest places first.

 

[Ezechiel]

Nice post but don't forget that Kaku is only presenting a newish framework to think with. His speculation is grander and more evocative than many scientists, nevertheless it's still speculation. That's no criticism btw.

Weird thing is that this framework integrates information that was available when SETI was created (1971): the age of our solar system (4 billion years) in the context of a 14 billion year old universe. With this information.... they still came to the conclusion that almighty man was at the pinacle of technological evolution in our galaxy with its fantastic super duper high energy radio transmitters LOL.
Acknowledging that the evolution of life forms on other solar systems pre-dating the existence of our own is a valid proposition changes everything and requires extreme out-of-the box perspectives. Michio Kaku is the icing on the cake.

Keppler is my favourite bet for discovering evidence of technology elsewhere.

Kepler telescope is the best of what mankind can do right now to detect other worlds. IMHO, trying to imagine what ET civilizations might be broadcasting in our galaxy is probably a waste of time. Security concerns would logically dictate that sophisticated extremely advanced interstellar communication strategies would be as stealthy as physically possible.

Once we reach type 1 status (or maybe 2).... or whatever state that starts impacting other solar systems with type 1 or 2 sentient beings, pretty damn sure that we'll get free galactic communication hardware and a protocol to respect

 

[NTS]

"almighty man was at the pinacle of technological evolution"

Well, no, that's not actually what SETI scientists think. They tend to believe that we're at the primitive end of civilizations that might be detectable. Where they may be wrong is in thinking that advanced civilizations will just have souped-up versions of what we recognize as technology. Michio Kaku's bit about the anthill next to the freeway is probably closer to the truth. As somebody once said "Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from nature".

 

[Kandinsky]

Kepler telescope is the best of what mankind can do right now to detect other worlds. IMHO, trying to imagine what ET civilizations might be broadcasting in our galaxy is probably a waste of time. Security concerns would logically dictate that sophisticated extremely advanced interstellar communication strategies would be as stealthy as physically possible.

Once we reach type 1 status (or maybe 2).... or whatever state that starts impacting other solar systems with type 1 or 2 sentient beings, pretty damn sure that we'll get free galactic communication hardware and a protocol to respect

The beauty of the Keppler mission is that it'll be a stepping stone to spectral analysis of the atmosphere of habitable worlds. It won't matter about broadcasts. The possibility of seeing unusual amounts of lead and by-products of industrialisation could be the evidence to satisfy science.

We've got UFOs and all manner of phenomena that lend themselves to notions of ET already being here. This kind of evidence always falls short of certainty for most of us. Actually knowing for sure that a distant planet is industrialised might be the best opportunity for science to jump the shark and hit the news!

It's sorta paradoxical that we're fascinated with UFOs and various ETHs and yet, here we are holding out for the proof of life being found some scores of light years away. Even closer, just finding some microbial critters on Mars in my lifetime is something to dream of.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:51 PM ----------

"almighty man was at the pinacle of technological evolution"

Well, no, that's not actually what SETI scientists think. They tend to believe that we're at the primitive end of civilizations that might be detectable. I think that where they may be wrong is in thinking that advanced civilizations will just have souped-up versions of what we recognize as technology. Michio Kaku's bit about the anthill next to the freeway is probably closer to the truth. As somebody once said "Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from nature".

Kaku, to my mind, is significant for adding new perspectives to conceive of advanced intelligence. Perhaps Vallee's inclination to more supernatural implications is still explained by the ETH in a more sophisticated design?

I don't have a position or 'dog in the race,' just thinking out loud and working through the possibilities.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

I think that the Universe must be swarming with life. But I also think that the characteristics of such life must be so different from the ones we know here on Earth that any communication between humans and an extraterrestrial civilization is ultimately improbable (not to say impossible).
An author I recommend on this subject would be Stanislaw Lem. Some of his works (often labeled as science fiction, but should more accurately be described as philosophical) ponder about the colossal barriers that would appear when trying to establish communication between humans and aliens. We may take, as an example, the historical challenges of contact among civilizations. Sure we're all humans who have a strong common basis (the same mental/biological framework and the possibility of language translation), but that contact often ended in conflict.
It's also absurd to think that alien civilizations would use radiowaves as a way to communicate. They may be millions of evolutive years ahead of us without ever having used such technology. Once again we, as humans, project our ego (and its inherent faults) into all that is unknown.

 

[tyder001]

It's also absurd to think that alien civilizations would use radiowaves as a way to communicate. They may be millions of evolutive years ahead of us without ever having used such technology. Once again we, as humans, project our ego (and its inherent faults) into all that is unknown.


This part of your post reminded me of an old Star Trek movie that my wife and child and I watched the other night on Netflix. Kirk goes to the computer and pulls up the "tape" of a experience he is researching. In the early 80's of course we had the VCR and to most of us that was a very high tech method of entertainment and knowledge at the time. Now, of course we wouldn't even dream of that as being "futuristic." <!-- BEGIN TEMPLATE: ad_showthread_firstpost_sig --><!-- END TEMPLATE: ad_showthread_firstpost_sig -->

 

[NTS]

"Stanislaw Lem"

Agree, Lem is great. I read "His Master's Voice" the other month. I particularly liked the example of a caveman stumbling on a library and thinking he's found some really great fuel for his campfire. Lem figures that's about the level we'll be at if we interact with an ET culture. Kind of pokes at the people who believe we could reverse-engineer UFO technology too. Like somebody from 1960 could even reverse-engineer a PC, much less something 10,000 or 10 million years ahead of us.

 

[Trajanus]

I think that the Universe must be swarming with life.

Planets with indigenously evolved life are probably few and far between. If the Universe is swarming with life, it's because of colonization by the more advanced societies.

But I also think that the characteristics of such life must be so different from the ones we know here on Earth that any communication between humans and an extraterrestrial civilization is ultimately improbable (not to say impossible).

No, I don't think so. For one thing, life probably wouldn't arise without earthlike conditions, which suggests similar evolutionary outcomes. But theoretical speculations aside, there are many, many accounts of human-alien communication. IMO that's not far fetched considering that ETs able to come here could figure out how to decipher our languages.

It's also absurd to think that alien civilizations would use radiowaves as a way to communicate. They may be millions of evolutive years ahead of us without ever having used such technology. Once again we, as humans, project our ego (and its inherent faults) into all that is unknown.

Agreed. Ours is a rather young civilization. We should assume others, being much older, have advanced considerably beyond our means.

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

"Stanislaw Lem"

Agree, Lem is great. I read "His Master's Voice" the other month. I particularly liked the example of a caveman stumbling on a library and thinking he's found some really great fuel for his campfire. Lem figures that's about the level we'll be at if we interact with an ET culture. Kind of pokes at the people who believe we could reverse-engineer UFO technology too. Like somebody from 1960 could even reverse-engineer a PC, much less something 10,000 or 10 million years ahead of us.

He could be right but I'm not sure. For one thing, progress may not continue forever but ultimately stop at a certain point, as Stent once proposed. And we can't be sure just how far behind we are; considering the exponential rate of our progress, the gap might be closed surprisingly soon with respect to historical time. Consider also UFO reports suggesting the visitors are in some cases hardly more advanced than we are. Maybe some backengineering has taken place.

 

[NTS]

"Planets with indigenously evolved life are probably few and far between. If the Universe is swarming with life, it's because of colonization by the more advanced societies."

I think (obviously with no evidence!) that life is common but intelligence is rare, possibly even unique to humans. Also life could spread naturally from planet to planet, at least within stellar systems, via meteorites. It wouldn't necessarily require intelligent colonization. This is something that we hopefully may get a handle on in the next few decades as we explore the solar system.

I'm skeptical that alien visitation accounts (even if "true") give us an accurate description of aliens. It's often been pointed out that (among other things) the technology of the (strangely human) space brothers/sisters looks like the popular idea at the time of the visits of what advanced technology would look like. Not at all like what our tech looks like 60 years later, or will look like 10,000/10 million years from now. I'm inclined to agree with the idea that if aliens are communicating with us, they're lying through their teeth (or whatever) about who they are and what they're here for.

 

[Ron Collins]

100 year life span of that technology lol. Everything is getting wired up (hello internet) or wified.

I agree in principle with your post, but the reasoning is flawed a bit. We are about to seriously scale back our broadcast in favor of directed signal. WIFI is and will always remain omnidirectional. In fact anything that is not fixed with a direct and uninterrupted line of sight to the source will have to communicate omnidirectional.The searchable wavelength range from seti is acceptable. The problem is power, distance, and obstacles. SETI science isn't completely bad but it is majority concept flawed. In a couple of hundred hears our broadcast signature will be low. Probably undetectable after a few light years. SETI's premiss is that the sky is being flooded with tons of signals at all time. Only if that is true do they stand a chance of detection.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

For one thing, life probably wouldn't arise without earthlike conditions, which suggests similar evolutionary outcomes.

We only have Earth's example as a template for the emergence of life. Intelligent life could have evolved (and still can in the future) from beings such as cephalopods, birds or sea mammals. This is an assumption solely based on the species we know here on Earth. Our knowledge of the morphology, atmosphere and other geophisical parameters of planets is, for the time being, restricted to the solar system (and there still are plenty of things we don't know about our closest astronomical neighbours). A totally different environment may generate life in ways we can't begin to imagine. To suppose that any intelligent lifeform would be similar to the ones we have here is, at least to me, an unsubstantiated assumption.

 

[Trajanus]

I think (obviously with no evidence!) that life is common but intelligence is rare, possibly even unique to humans.

I very much doubt intelligence is unique to humans but agree it's rarer than life. Mars might have a biosphere deep underground but it's unlkely to include advanced life.

Also life could spread naturally from planet to planet, at least within stellar systems, via meteorites.

I'm not sure that's possible. I recall discussing the idea with someone after the "Mars meterorite life" announcement. He said the heat of an impact sufficient to eject rocks into space is "more than sufficient to sterilize." The same would be true of the heat of impact as rocks hit another world.

I'm skeptical that alien visitation accounts (even if "true") give us an accurate description of aliens. It's often been pointed out that (among other things) the technology of the (strangely human) space brothers/sisters looks like the popular idea at the time of the visits of what advanced technology would look like.

I don't think so. Note that even in star trek, the "enterprise" relied on rockets, which saucers don't. Btw I tend to be more skeptical of some of the more odd looking UFO entities e.g. fishlike types or "reptoids" than human-like ones.

Not at all like what our tech looks like 60 years later, or will look like 10,000/10 million years from now.

I wouldn't be surprised if it looked like UFOs i.e. utilizing some propulsion mode we don't understand yet.

I'm inclined to agree with the idea that if aliens are communicating with us, they're lying through their teeth (or whatever) about who they are and what they're here for.

Oh sure, that's true, but a different issue. They are here and they can communicate.

---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 AM ----------

We only have Earth's example as a template for the emergence of life. Intelligent life could have evolved (and still can in the future) from beings such as cephalopods, birds or sea mammals.

Sure, dolphins are intelligent, and octopoids are surprisingly bright for invertebrates. But that doesn't mean they're capable of higher intelligence. Compared to birds, and a multitude of other creatures, homo is very recent. You'd think that, after all the eons that all sorts of other creatures have been around, in all kinds of different environments, had any been capable of evolving higher intelligence, at least one would've long ago beat homo to it. And I can't see aquatic life or birds developing a technical civilization. One needs more than brains; one needs hands.

This is an assumption solely based on the species we know here on Earth. Our knowledge of the morphology, atmosphere and other geophisical parameters of planets is, for the time being, restricted to the solar system (and there still are plenty of things we don't know about our closest astronomical neighbours). A totally different environment may generate life in ways we can't begin to imagine.

Based on what we do know about other planets in our solar system, it appears that a "totally different environment" wouldn't be habitable at all. It is true that earthlike i.e. habitable conditions could arise under significantly different circumstances e.g. on some earth-sized moon of a gas giant close to a dim star, so it gets sufficient warmth without the effects of tidal locking. Still, the actual environment would have to be essentially the same, which suggests a similar evolutionary outcome.

 

[Ezechiel]

I agree in principle with your post, but the reasoning is flawed a bit. We are about to seriously scale back our broadcast in favor of directed signal. WIFI is and will always remain omnidirectional. In fact anything that is not fixed with a direct and uninterrupted line of sight to the source will have to communicate omnidirectional.The searchable wavelength range from seti is acceptable. The problem is power, distance, and obstacles. SETI science isn't completely bad but it is majority concept flawed. In a couple of hundred hears our broadcast signature will be low. Probably undetectable after a few light years. SETI's premiss is that the sky is being flooded with tons of signals at all time. Only if that is true do they stand a chance of detection.

True WIFI is omnidirectional, but not sure if it persists beyond our atmosphere or even a city for that matter.

http://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/news/profiles_dsn.html
... wonder if Voyager radio signal will survive bow shock

 

[Ezechiel]

We only have Earth's example as a template for the emergence of life. Intelligent life could have evolved (and still can in the future) from beings such as cephalopods, birds or sea mammals. This is an assumption solely based on the species we know here on Earth. Our knowledge of the morphology, atmosphere and other geophisical parameters of planets is, for the time being, restricted to the solar system (and there still are plenty of things we don't know about our closest astronomical neighbours). A totally different environment may generate life in ways we can't begin to imagine. To suppose that any intelligent lifeform would be similar to the ones we have here is, at least to me, an unsubstantiated assumption.

I've got a hunch that our carbon-based design (DNA), shaped by millions of years of mutation is pervasive in the universe... although resulting shape/form might be different.

As soon as an environment enables more complex constructs, competing diversity forces evolution through survival of the fittest. Once a construct attains a certain level of sentience, other survival skills emerge. Social, intellectual..etc.
Math would be the same... they could use other bases instead of base 10 (maybe they have 11 fingers LOL)
If they use computers, binary is unavoidable as a start. I fail to understand why too highly technical civilization wouldn't be able to communicate !? (Assuming mathematical concepts are universal)

Without an asteroid impact reset... we'd probably have a reptilian form

 

[Frank Stalter]

"Stanislaw Lem"

Agree, Lem is great. I read "His Master's Voice" the other month. I particularly liked the example of a caveman stumbling on a library and thinking he's found some really great fuel for his campfire. Lem figures that's about the level we'll be at if we interact with an ET culture. Kind of pokes at the people who believe we could reverse-engineer UFO technology too. Like somebody from 1960 could even reverse-engineer a PC, much less something 10,000 or 10 million years ahead of us.

I think this Lem fellow is selling people a little short. Even if a caveman couldn't make any sense of some future texts, they'd certainly be curious about any pictures. Could someone from 1960 build a fully operational PC from reverse engineering? No, but they could certainly rip it apart and figure a few things out. Could someone from the late 1940s do the same from an alien spacecraft? No, but they could figure out what it was made of and integrate design elements into a next generation of aircraft . . . . and there is compelling evidence of just that happening.

 

[Facius_Cardan]

I think this Lem fellow is selling people a little short. Even if a caveman couldn't make any sense of some future texts, they'd certainly be curious about any pictures. Could someone from 1960 build a fully operational PC from reverse engineering? No, but they could certainly rip it apart and figure a few things out. Could someone from the late 1940s do the same from an alien spacecraft? No, but they could figure out what it was made of and integrate design elements into a next generation of aircraft . . . . and there is compelling evidence of just that happening.

The funny thing is that this incomprehensibility also works the other way around. There are many artifacts from our past whose purpose still eludes us (and probably will always do). Also there are ancient languages/writing systems that remain unreadable. And all that was created by human beings, just like us, but some centuries or millennia ago.
I'm not nearly convinced that alien technology has been retrieved, much less reverse engineered. Nothing in our history of technological advancement has represented a leap forward so dramatic that would justify such supposition.That would be direspecting the men and women who spent their lives inventing things like jet propulsion, silicon chips and computer networks. If anyone can come forward with solid, verifiable evidence for such claims I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.

 

[Frank Stalter]

The funny thing is that this incomprehensibility also works the other way around. There are many artifacts from our past whose purpose still eludes us (and probably will always do). Also there are ancient languages/writing systems that remain unreadable. And all that was created by human beings, just like us, but some centuries or millennia ago.
I'm not nearly convinced that alien technology has been retrieved, much less reverse engineered. Nothing in our history of technological advancement has represented a leap forward so dramatic that would justify such supposition.That would be direspecting the men and women who spent their lives inventing things like jet propulsion, silicon chips and computer networks. If anyone can come forward with solid, verifiable evidence for such claims I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.

Just because we can't decipher some ancient languages doesn't mean they don't tell us plenty. You may know the famous Picasso saying, "Good artists copy, great artists steal." That's the history of human development in a nutshell. I like my current mouse trap just fine, but if I see one that does a better job than mine, I want to know why and how and if I can figure it out, I'll upgrade my next mouse trap model. It's why we have corporate and military security and espionage.

I think there is solid, verifiable evidence that we have reverse engineered alien vehicles. I'm not going to tell you I think it adds up to case closed proof, but the evidence is strong enough to merit a closer look.