MUFON, a solution?

[marduk]

Lots of shows recently touching on Mufon and their various shortcomings e.g. lack of progress over the years to identify the reality of UFOs and secret space program fantasies.

The lack of MUFON progress issue, for me, is intrinsically linked to the lack of progress of the whole field when it comes to identiftying the UFO reality, Gene frequently likes to remind us that the prevailing narratives now have not moved on significantly from Keyhoe in the 50's.

The problem: Anecdotes

If we want to advance the study of aerial phenomena as a physical phenomena, we need to treat it like any other physical phenomena in how it is studied. This requires instrumented data.

Example, when black holes were theorized by physicists they would not have been accepted as part of empirical reality without the data from instruments to back it up. We could have had 10 or 100 people say they have seen them and these people could have been hugely credentialed and qualified witnesses but if it was just sighting anecdotes and without data they would still be theoretical and rumoured to be true but not quite yet part of the textbooks.

Same goes for any other physical discoveries, imagine if quantum scientists said they had seen evidence of quarks but could not present the data from instruments to record the measurements, they would still be a theoretical partical.

And in the case of the military policeman or pilot who reported a UFO its no different, as credible as it is, it's almost useless in the realm of scientific study with the aim being a consensus understanding of a phenomenon and it's physical make up.

This is why UFOlogoy is not getting off the first base because the evidence base is by en large anecdotal. And anecdotal evidence will not pass for a scientific reality, forget the conspiracy, you need instrumented data to allow for pier review and critical analysis of theorem.

So the solution, a new ufo research group:

The aim of this theoretical group would be to advance the scientific study of aerial phenomena by collecting data from instruments.

R.A.P.I.D.

Research of Aerial Phenomena using Instrumented Data.

What would they do:

- Act as a global repository for any UFO data collected from scientific instruments

- Ban on consideration of any anecdotal data, unless to add context/commentary to data collected from instruments (whoopee we have just eliminated disinformation, hoaxes and charlatans from the field!)

- Seek council from academics and scientists on how to collect the data in a way which would in the future be considered viable for pier review, and disseminate these collection guidelines to members

- with the help of academics and scientists, build a database that could accept data from any instrumented research project submitted so it could be added to the wider research pool and used for macro data and trend/pattern analysis

- research cost effective and practical, instrumented data experiments that new members could seek to carry out in local groups and help to educate and train

- of course it would all be non profit, with global access on line

So, ok it may not be perfect but it has to be better than more collection of anecdotes.

Keep doing the same thing, expect different results etc.

Welcome your thoughts, builds, criticisms!

I’m in, hoss.

 

[SheaOlmsford]

I really do think that MUFON has hit a brick wall regarding this subject for me anyway, i have had people report sightings to MUFON and they just get sidelined and don't seem that bothered or enthusiastic about any reports at all, I know what most will say that they have probably had enough reports that turn out to be bogus and they cannot be bothered with searching through the Crap but still if you are running a big company you need still have Professionalism and a Approachable attitude i really can see this as what happened before people in small local groups just doing there own investigations and just keeping MUFON in the Loop (Occasionally).

I mean it probably don't help things with that awful show "Hanger One" and then running "Courses" to become an "Investigator" for a stupid price just all seems like a SHAM.

Since it seems that all you need to join the Inner Circle of MUFON is a bushel barrel full of cash, how long before the gang at Exopolitics, e.g., Stephen Greer and Michael Salla, take over MUFON and ban any reports that aren't indicative of loving spiritual space brother aliens. Will MUFON conferences on Ascension to 4th or 5th Density be far behind?

 

[marduk]

The instrumented data would serve to prove scientifically that there is a phenomena e.g. it has been observed and recorded, it has physical properties within a set of parameters and (roll time forward) that they have been recorded in sufficient numbers to be considered significant enough to be statistically compelling.

It could also add some big data benefits if part of a database that may tell us (presuming they exist) where and when they are likely to turn up further enhancing chance of study and understanding

A primary focus should be on data acquisition and mining which should allow for modelling, hypotheses, and eventually the key to the whole thing: independent replication of the results.

Once a skeptic or an academic can do that... it will be a whole new ball game. That’s why this field gets ignored.

 

[marduk]

I really do think that MUFON has hit a brick wall regarding this subject for me anyway, i have had people report sightings to MUFON and they just get sidelined and don't seem that bothered or enthusiastic about any reports at all, I know what most will say that they have probably had enough reports that turn out to be bogus and they cannot be bothered with searching through the Crap but still if you are running a big company you need still have Professionalism and a Approachable attitude i really can see this as what happened before people in small local groups just doing there own investigations and just keeping MUFON in the Loop (Occasionally).

I mean it probably don't help things with that awful show "Hanger One" and then running "Courses" to become an "Investigator" for a stupid price just all seems like a SHAM.

The solution to MUFON is to nuke the site from orbit.

It’s the only way to be sure.

 

[DaveM]

A group like MUFON is all about making money. UFO research is just a pretext for that. You hold a conference, get some speakers spouting nonsense so you can put fannies in the seats and sell UFO books and trinkets. Don't go there expecting to hear any 'truths.'

You know the field has become corrupted when the main topics of conversation these days are about MUFON, Sean David Morton, Dr. Greer etc.

 

[pigfarmer]

Welcome to the forum! Are you a part of the other tech forums because you have some technical expertise in some area?

Thanks

I participate in a classic car forum and another devoted to collecting antique military surplus rifles because my interests tend to be hands on. Understanding older technology and keeping it useful floats my boat. Learning how something works and why is rewarding to me.

By trade I am a telecommunications engineer. 32 years deep and too young to retire. If it’s of any use to anyone – if ET really ever shows up and really wants to phone home just let me know and I’ll see what I can do to hook him up. I never wanted to participate in forums devoted to telecom like Tek-Tips because it’s too much like work and too many people handing out bad advice.

As for this forum and this particular thread – I don’t doubt there are many people in MUFON who are sincere in what they do. It isn’t their devotion or intent that I doubt it’s the method in use. I also see the management as a blatant clown show and trying point that out for the benefit of the uninitiated is like holding back the tide with a broom.

In the recent episode with Jacques Vallée I would have preferred that not one second be wasted on discussing MUFON. There’s a man quietly going about his business that I enjoyed listening to and bringing up this topic was disappointing.

 

[Randall]

Thanks

I participate in a classic car forum and another devoted to collecting antique military surplus rifles because my interests tend to be hands on. Understanding older technology and keeping it useful floats my boat. Learning how something works and why is rewarding to me.

By trade I am a telecommunications engineer. 32 years deep and too young to retire. If it’s of any use to anyone – if ET really ever shows up and really wants to phone home just let me know and I’ll see what I can do to hook him up. I never wanted to participate in forums devoted to telecom like Tek-Tips because it’s too much like work and too many people handing out bad advice.

As for this forum and this particular thread – I don’t doubt there are many people in MUFON who are sincere in what they do. It isn’t their devotion or intent that I doubt it’s the method in use. I also see the management as a blatant clown show and trying point that out for the benefit of the uninitiated is like holding back the tide with a broom.

In the recent episode with Jacques Vallée I would have preferred that not one second be wasted on discussing MUFON. There’s a man quietly going about his business that I enjoyed listening to and bringing up this topic was disappointing.

What motivated you to participate in a paranormal forum?

 

[Randall]

A group like MUFON is all about making money. UFO research is just a pretext for that. You hold a conference, get some speakers spouting nonsense so you can put fannies in the seats and sell UFO books and trinkets. Don't go there expecting to hear any 'truths.'

You know the field has become corrupted when the main topics of conversation these days are about MUFON, Sean David Morton, Dr. Greer etc.

What do you think we ( or anyone else ) can realistically do?

 

[DaveM]

What do you think we ( or anyone else ) can realistically do?

To be honest, nothing. I would venture to guess that people who attend these seminars, go to hear someone tell them that the space brothers are here to help the human race. If there are intelligent beings behind ufos, they seem to be keeping their own counsel. I don't see or hear of any plans being revealed to any earthlings.

As long as humans are looking for guidance from some outside entity, there will be those that prey on those type people and try to take their money.

 

[pigfarmer]

What motivated you to participate in a paranormal forum?

Several factors, prime of which are certain paranormal experiences.

Another is being a power commuter. I have spent far too many years stuck in a service truck or a train in the NY Metro area and turned to podcasts to keep me from foaming at the mouth or chewing on the steering wheel.

I found purely technical material put me to sleep which is the exact opposite effect I needed so I turned to alternatives. Favorites that keep me interested and awake are: The Paracast , Radio Misterioso, Open Minds, Monster Talk, The Unexplained with Howard Hughes, Archaeological Fantasies, War College, SpyCast, Dan Snow’s History Hit, Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History … to name a few. Got a number of good book suggestions out of all of those.

My personal history coupled with the information I sort of incidentally gleaned led me to start writing relatively long documents that I just keep to myself because I never really thought another blog would add anything of value. Finally I decided that this forum seemed like a place to start and try to share some of this. First podcast I subscribed to. Decent forum not strictly technical – I do get a little bored with camshafts and boiled linseed oil finishes.

I live in New York’s Hudson River Valley and have my own insight into Pine Bush and the big ‘flap’ in the ‘80s. I’ve seen some truly weird things that were UFOs … until I sort of figured them out either right at the time or years later. I have some personal insight regarding haunted houses and ghost hunting. I doubt anything earth shattering but interesting to me.

At the moment I have too much time on my hands. Something about this MUFON thread struck a nerve, although the group specifically doesn't faze me much one way or the other. Par for the course. I had some very limited contact with them years ago and have a very different perspective now from both the 'witness' and as a reporting body.

I feel the need for catharsis…or maybe a paranormal high colonic. Not sure where to start.Maybe I should just start a separate thread?

 

[Randall]

Several factors, prime of which are certain paranormal experiences.

Another is being a power commuter. I have spent far too many years stuck in a service truck or a train in the NY Metro area and turned to podcasts to keep me from foaming at the mouth or chewing on the steering wheel.

I found purely technical material put me to sleep which is the exact opposite effect I needed so I turned to alternatives. Favorites that keep me interested and awake are: The Paracast , Radio Misterioso, Open Minds, Monster Talk, The Unexplained with Howard Hughes, Archaeological Fantasies, War College, SpyCast, Dan Snow’s History Hit, Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History … to name a few. Got a number of good book suggestions out of all of those.

My personal history coupled with the information I sort of incidentally gleaned led me to start writing relatively long documents that I just keep to myself because I never really thought another blog would add anything of value. Finally I decided that this forum seemed like a place to start and try to share some of this. First podcast I subscribed to. Decent forum not strictly technical – I do get a little bored with camshafts and boiled linseed oil finishes.

I live in New York’s Hudson River Valley and have my own insight into Pine Bush and the big ‘flap’ in the ‘80s. I’ve seen some truly weird things that were UFOs … until I sort of figured them out either right at the time or years later. I have some personal insight regarding haunted houses and ghost hunting. I doubt anything earth shattering but interesting to me.

At the moment I have too much time on my hands. Something about this MUFON thread struck a nerve, although the group specifically doesn't faze me much one way or the other. Par for the course. I had some very limited contact with them years ago and have a very different perspective now from both the 'witness' and as a reporting body.

I feel the need for catharsis…or maybe a paranormal high colonic. Not sure where to start.Maybe I should just start a separate thread?

Glad you picked the Paracast and by all means feel free to post your papers or stories! It's good to have someone who has a logical and technical mind contribute because IMO that's what's needed more than believers in nonsense. Like you, I've experienced stuff too, so even though I'm skeptical, it's not like I don't believe strange things happen to people. More about your UFO experience would be a great place to start.

 

[Greers Meeting Planner]

Agreed, you don't know when the phenomenon will appear.

(Again, assuming this is a physical phenomenon and not a psychological or other)

You have to set the experiments up and wait, projects like Chris' camera one can help by covering a wide area.

More projects around the globe increases likelihood of them being monitored by an experiment.

But yes, it's a set up and wait.

 

[ALPHA ROMEO UNIFORM]

Unless it can manipulate human technology and produces what it wants us to see.

 

[Randall]

Unless it can manipulate human technology and produces what it wants us to see.

Yup. I'm partial to the idea that the aliens have a covert study program going and that some paranormal phenomena, including hauntings, morphing UFOs, abductions, and even some strange psychic phenomena could be explained by such activity. It makes as much sense ( or more ) than invoking afterlives or gods.

 

[marduk]

Yup. I'm partial to the idea that the aliens have a covert study program going and that some paranormal phenomena, including hauntings, morphing UFOs, abductions, and even some strange psychic phenomena could be explained by such activity. It makes as much sense ( or more ) than invoking afterlives or gods.

I think that's as plausible an explanation as anything. But as we discussed, I have some challenges to that hypothesis.

One is that it is basic experimental methodology to reduce your variables. In social psychology, this seems to mean to have control over the environment for one thing. You see research subjects come into a very controlled space, given a very controlled set of stimuli, and then see what happens. One could say that this is what happens to abductees perhaps. But for general sightings, the whole Earth is a pretty uncontrolled environment. If people freak out, it could be as much because Trump is in the white house as it was the sighting, for example. Or if people ignore it, it could be because we just legalized pot. Or whatever.

The second challenge to that line of thinking is that the study program is very messy. Either they are terrible at it - if they don't want us to see them, for example, then why do we see them sometimes? If they don't care if we see them, then why do they hide sometimes? Or they don't care about interfering with the experiment - which is just bad science. Or they are capable of experimentation at such a level that their interference is part of the experiment - meaning there's a meta- or semantic- layer to the whole thing. But if they are capable of that, they should be capable of modelling humanity to such a level that it would make the experiment itself kind of pointless. We are on the verge of being able to model an entire human mind, and the next step is to model groups of them.

Third is that if they are here because of us, then we should be able to influence them. Think about that - if the mouse were to suddenly realize it was in a maze and do something profoundly different, the researcher should come running to check it out. If that's the case, then we should focus on changing the experiencer's behaviour, or watching the experiencers more. Perhaps both.

 

[marduk]

Unless it can manipulate human technology and produces what it wants us to see.

That kind of awe is dangerous, no? It implies that they are basically in charge of everything, and we can do nothing.

If that's true, I'd like to have a chat with them about American foreign policy, because they've sure f'd that up.

 

[DaveM]

That kind of awe is dangerous, no? It implies that they are basically in charge of everything, and we can do nothing.

If that's true, I'd like to have a chat with them about American foreign policy, because they've sure f'd that up.

I would never say we can do nothing, under that scenario. However, you would need human beings who are aware of this situation. Most people I see are distracted by any number of things; money, sports, the internet or just trying to keep their heads above water. They aren't worrying about some alien agenda.

 

[pigfarmer]

Glad you picked the Paracast and by all means feel free to post your papers or stories! It's good to have someone who has a logical and technical mind contribute because IMO that's what's needed more than believers in nonsense. Like you, I've experienced stuff too, so even though I'm skeptical, it's not like I don't believe strange things happen to people. More about your UFO experience would be a great place to start.

Thanks. Done. I posted "A pigfarmer's Estimate of the Situation" in the "Your personal experiences' forum"

 

[pigfarmer]

To be honest, nothing. I would venture to guess that people who attend these seminars, go to hear someone tell them that the space brothers are here to help the human race. If there are intelligent beings behind ufos, they seem to be keeping their own counsel. I don't see or hear of any plans being revealed to any earthlings.As long as humans are looking for guidance from some outside entity, there will be those that prey on those type people and try to take their money.

Agreed.

In terms of “MUFON, a solution?” it depends on what you are looking for a solution to. To the ‘UFO’ or ‘paranormal’ situation, no. As a social organization, sure, why not?

My personal opinion is that only well-funded and staffed private entities could conduct serious research of this kind. Grassroots campaigns in this arena are like turning on the porch light. They have an excellent purpose but have unpleasant or at least unintended consequences.

Since we are speculating, I’d be interested in non-paranormal genuine scientific research making advances toward communicating with other terrestrial species. I recently heard an interview with Professor Kevin Warwick regarding artificial intelligence and a pair of Facebook chatbots that developed an unexpected dialogue. His p.o.v was that we have little basis of understanding on how a cow thinks and less on how an AI might interpret the world so where to even start an examination? In short, we need to learn to walk first before we run.

Why are we so quick to assume – to anthropomorphize – the intentions of some ‘other’? Suppose there is a ‘precognitive sentient intelligence’ as it’s been suggested. We may simply be unable to communicate with something so foreign to our perception.

In the meantime, at a bare minimum, if a grassroots organization began using standardized forms and collecting a real database I’d say that would be a good start. Even at that it would take a monumental effort to collect one large enough for the data to reveal anything useful, whatever that may be.

 

[marduk]

I would never say we can do nothing, under that scenario. However, you would need human beings who are aware of this situation. Most people I see are distracted by any number of things; money, sports, the internet or just trying to keep their heads above water. They aren't worrying about some alien agenda.

My point is that if 'they' can or would influence technology to such an extent, then they'd be able to influence everything - from TV to news to this very website - to fulfil their agenda.

And if that were true, they would have allowed or contributed to Trump being in power.

And if that were true, they would have allowed or contributed to Trump's disastrous foreign policy decisions, because those were based on perception and information. Both managed through technology.

And if that were true, they would have been either directly or indirectly in charge of that foreign policy. Therefore, I shouldn't complain to Trump for his decisions, I should complain to 'them.' You don't complain to the person that can't fix the problem, you only deal with the one that can fix it.

If they're managing Earth, they suck at it. If they're not and they're able to, they've abdicated responsibility for it. And to hell with them, then. Let's just carve our own path.