MUFON's Hanger 1: Two Critical Reviews

[Frank Stalter]

Technically, The Paracast is not a podcast but a network radio show, broadcast on terrestrial radio, that is also available as a podcast. Technically.

We'll the opportunity is there for him to defend himself in a way where he cannot depend on his keyboard to help him.

I'll mention your offer next time we exchange emails. You've got mine directly.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Thanks.

 

[Constance]

Are you challenging Stanford to a debate?

And by the way, tell me what great things Bragalia has written and discovered, forgetting the Socorro piece.

Then surely he can defend himself in an interview.[/QUOTE]

My question is why should he have to "defend himself'" in a live debate on the Paracast or anywhere else? And why he should be required to do so without being able to "hide behind his keyboard," as you put it. What does that mean? Several years ago I followed the now archived reports by Bragalia as he penetrated the question of metallic Roswell debris having been studied at Wright Patterson and Battelle. His most recent (and I think the fifth) report on what he uncovered is at the link Frank Stalton provided in his article on the evidently secret development of nitinol. The fifth report provides a summary of what has gone before, but anyone who wants to find fault with Bragalia's research on this matter will have to respond to all of the five detailed reports from Bragalia -- and do so in writing in my opinion given the complexity involved in the complement of Bragalia's research on this subject. Bragalia's persistence in penetrating the secrecy surrounding this subject is exemplary and his research findings need to be understood in full. Along the way we learn a great deal about Pentacle {H.C. Cross} and those he worked with -- and the depth of the coverup that so many casual commentators on 'ufos' continue to question and even scoff at. Not to read Bragalia's memory metal research is to continue to operate outside the circle of light he has directed into the reality of Roswell and the coverup that began then.

Why not ask instead if Bragalia would participate in a written question and answer thread here in which members of this forum could participate with questions, and objections if they have them, after having read his research?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

There's a distinction between saying he can defend himself with or without benefit of keyboard, and whether he chooses to do so. A question-and-answer thread is fine, and I'm sure we could work out something, maybe even a written debate between him and Stanford, if both are willing. But The Paracast is still a radio show.

 

[Christopher O'Brien]

I'll happily debate anyone on what I've turned up . . . Socorro, the titanium industry, the White House UFO meeting in 52. Tony's work on nitinol and its' development and his follow up with Roswell witnesses has been great. He's also turned up new material on a great case in Wanaque, NJ and found documents demonstrating the existence of The Blue Room at Wright-Patterson AFB. I'm sure there's more but that's just off the top of my head.

He has indeed done some impressive digging and I hold his research work in high regard. However, even the best of us sometime overstep the facts. Tony's example would be Socorro, IMO. Frank, if you want to be a co-guest on the Paracast w/ Ray to discuss the case, or debate it, let me know—I'll make the call and set it up. As you are well aware he's extremely knowledgeable and passionate about this particular case that he personally investigated and wrote the classic book, etc., as you well know...

 

[Frank Stalter]

He has indeed done some impressive digging and I hold his research work in high regard. However, even the best of us sometime overstep the facts. Tony's example would be Socorro, IMO. Frank, if you want to be a co-guest on the Paracast w/ Ray to discuss the case, or debate it, let me know—I'll make the call and set it up. As you are well aware he's extremely knowledgeable and passionate about this particular case that he personally investigated and wrote the classic book, etc., as you well know...

I said months ago I'd do it. I heard Ray within the last few weeks do an interview and it seems he's calmed down and was very solid and credible and recounted the facts of the case pretty accurately. I will do the same.

 

[Constance]

I said months ago I'd do it. I heard Ray within the last few weeks do an interview and it seems he's calmed down and was very solid and credible and recounted the facts of the case pretty accurately. I will do the same.

A discussion on the Paracast radio program between Mr. Stanford and Mr. Stalter re Socorro would be great. A thread involving Mr. Bragalia in discussion of his Battelle Roswell metal research would also be great. I'd love to see both and hope y'all can get it arranged.

 

[Constance]

Yeah sure. I think Tony is THE top UFO researcher out there right now. The guy consistently turns up new material in a field that has really been picked over. Still, there are some things that have gone unnoticed over the years and there's more there. I like to think I've found some of it over the years and brought some attention to it. The entire titanium industry and the lack of detail surrounding how it was founded is one of those things. I can't think of another industry as important with such a hazy origin story. I don't think we could have gotten to the moon without titanium, at least not the way we did it. It has some really astonishing properties that still have not been fully exploited.

I'll start to call you Frank if that's okay. It looks like the best way to set up a thread on the Battelle memory metal research and its context in further development by corporations within the military industrial complex would be if you would speak with Tony Bragalia about the proposed thread here and if both of you would be present in it to answer developing questions in the discussion. Does that sound all right to you? It could well begin with your recent article on nitinol's history, to which he could respond. Before it could be arranged, if it can, people wanting to participate will have time to consult your research and his.

 

[Frank Stalter]

I'll start to call you Frank if that's okay. It looks like the best way to set up a thread on the Battelle memory metal research and its context in further development by corporations within the military industrial complex would be if you would speak with Tony Bragalia about the proposed thread here and if both of you would be present in it to answer developing questions in the discussion. Does that sound all right to you? It could well begin with your recent article on nitinol's history, to which he could respond. Before it could be arranged, if it can, people wanting to participate will have time to consult your research and his.

You can call me Frank. My angle and Tony's angle are a little different. Tony has focused on nitinol which is, of course, a titanium based alloy. My focus has been on the founding of the entire titanium industry itself in December 1948. Now I have absolutely gotten a lot of ideas, including that one, reading Tony's stuff and that has worked the other way too. He puts a lot more time and effort into this than I do. For me, it's been much more of a past time which I've really enjoyed but at the same time I really do think there's something to all this. I think there are a lot of things that should be discussed about this entire phenomenon. It's Gene and Chris who keep bringing up Socorro when I do stop in and post here. Chris is nice enough to post at my Facebook group once in a while . . . . usually about Socorro. Hahahahaha!

I do think it's a great case and I absolutely think Lonnie Zamora was a great witness. I just think we were able to get it explained.

 

[Constance]

I'll look up your page on facebook. Do you think Tony Bragalia will be open to a discussion here on shape memory metals research and Roswell? I hope he will because I'm sure it would be enlightening for many people to see what both of you have uncovered. If he agrees, I'll be happy to open the thread with an introduction to both of your related research projects, which I think would best be followed by an exchange between the two of you, or perhaps better a discussion between the two of you, to be followed by questions from others. If he does not wish to participate at length here, or at all, the thread could still proceed to discussion of the issues involved.

 

[DissectionStalker]

I said months ago I'd do it. I heard Ray within the last few weeks do an interview and it seems he's calmed down and was very solid and credible and recounted the facts of the case pretty accurately. I will do the same.

This is great! Just how far away was this incident from a military base, airport, or test range? Thanks.

 

[DissectionStalker]

Here's some commentary I found from Stanford:

(See reply to Stanford at the end that scored some points, imo...)

However, his claim that I did not thoroughly investigate the observed height of the two diminutive beings is absolutely false. I dealt thoroughly with that question with the occupant's only witness, police officer Lonnie Zamora, and, subsequently in the book. Is Murray perhaps wishing to prejudice his review readers by saying, "...more attention should have been paid to the two HUMANS [My emphasis. R.S.] seen next to the vehicle..."? Humans??? Zamora was far more objective than Murray, and never referred to them as humans, but simply as "...small figures in what resembled white coveralls, pretty close to the object on its northwest side, as if inspecting it. They were standing between it and a good-sized greasewood bush. One of the figures [Note: Zamora still does not refer to them as humans.] -- the one in front, nearest me -- seemed to turn as if it [Note: Not 'the person', but "it".] heard or saw my car coming. It must have seen me, 'cause when it turned and looked straight at my car, it seemed startled -- almost seemed to jump somewhat." (See page 20. whole paragraph # 4.)

Murray goes on to create another straw man by saying, "Lonnie Zamora also said that they were visibly smaller than a 5'2" bush they were standing next to...but this does not take into account his line of sight, distorted perspectives, were they crouching slightly? Ray Stanford seems not to have looked at any of these points...Why? Because he was on a mission to prove the vehicle was of extraterrestrial origin."

That's ridiculous. Every possibility was considered, and explored with Zamora, in depth.

He creates pure fiction in alleging "distorted perspective", because from the mesa-top northeast of the scene, he had a open view of both the two diminutive, white-clad beings and the bush beside which they were standing. It's very simple: If the height of the occupants was diminished by the ever-so-slightly less than 90-degree view relative to their vertical, so was the bush beside which he determined their relative size. Is it that hard for Murray to understand?

Thus, on Wednesday, April 29, 1964, when Dr. J. Allen Hynek (USAF scientific consultant) and I stood with officer Zamora, right beside where the two diminutive figured had stood, and had him explain exactly how he saw the two figures standing relative to the bush, it was absolutely clear that there could not possibly be any confusion, and because of that, it's certain that Murray's "distorted perspective" is itself nothing short of wish-fulfilling fiction. The slightly more distant figure was standing farther west than the nearer-to-Zamora east-most part of the bush (with another part of the bush behind that figure), while the nearer figure was a bit closer to Zamora than was that east-most part of the bush. If Dr. Hynek were alive today, he would declare that Zamora could not have possibly been mistaken regarding the height of the two figures' heads relative to the maximum-height 5'2" bush, because he was convinced of that fact by Zamora's careful, on-site explanation of the situation.

On more than one occasion, even early-on, Zamora insisted that both figures looked the size of, "...a ten-year-old boy" (That quote is an exact one.), and believing that they were in fact those who had arrived and departed in the ellipsoidal vehicle, he came to a conclusion that was very contrary to what he ever wanted to believe -- that the beings were not from this planet, as in fact he suggested in at least one TV interview I watched in Zamora's later years.

As to my 1976 book, Socorro Saucer in A Pentagon Pantry, Dr. Hynek reviewed the manuscript, at my request, before it was published. He liked it, wrote me a promotional letter to use in advertising it (Copies are available on-request.), and even donated a copy to the Technical Library of NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston.

Murray desperately hopes that Zamora misperceived two humans, as evidenced in that unnecessary question, "...were they crouching?" How could Murray have missed the fact, right there in the book in black and white, that Zamora said both were "standing", unequivocally, or did he deliberately refrains from mentioning the reality Zamora described, as seen on my book's page 20, paragraph 4. Who knows? However, I prefer to think that the Murray's clear bias that Zamora was wrong in his size estimate simply resulted in his unconsciously ignoring what I faithfully recorded that Zamora told me.

Please notice that Murray presents zero evidence that the occupants were human. Of course, none exists. The reality is that Zamora never thought they were human, but took years deciding to say that publicly, and unless one alleges that the object was a government project remarkable piloted by midgets and that the object was over forty-seven years technologically beyond anything terrestrials have ever flown even as of today, we should be realistic and admit that Zamora was right.

Ray Stanford
The Author,
Socorro Saucer in A Pentagon Pantry
==========================
SOMEONE REPLIED TO STANFORD:

Thank you very much for your very detailed reply.

Imo, the two most fascinating things you note in your reply above is:

1) That the 10 year old child sized "humanoid" shaped individuals had some type of clothing: "white coveralls", and...

2) It had a common human response: "It must have seen me, 'cause when it turned and looked straight at my car, it seemed startled -- almost seemed to jump somewhat."

Well now, could that be Human???

or...

ET in white coveralls and scared sheeitless when the Fuzz shows-up... time to go! LOL.

 

[Randall]

When it comes to cancer I am not comfortable with the possibility since a close relative has pancreatic cancer. He's getting radiation and chemo.

The type of treatment I'm referring to isn't some sort of naturopathic or homeopathic home-remedy. It's serious medicine. It's hard to find information about it, but I've seen at least two stories on the news. We've also been dealing with the big C and it's really aggravating when the system that everyone thinks is so great refuses to provide this treatment and instead pumps people full of highly poisonous chemicals and/or radiation. Here's a video that explains how one treatment center is using it in conjunction with some low dose conventional therapy. It's a bit tedious, but has some good info. For more info lookup Autologous T-Cell Infusion Therapy.

Don't mean to derail. Move to another thread if you want.​

 

[Gene Steinberg]

It's OK. I'll look it over. Thanks.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

It's a melanoma treatment, I gather. Stephen has pancreatic cancer, and his doctors at Mayo Clinic are telling him that his treatment options are the ones they are offering, which fit in the traditional radiation/chemo mode. The trial for TL-118, which might address his condition, is in Phase 2 in two locations in the U.S., quite far from here, and the trials won't end till next year. One expects Mayo Clinic is aware of the cutting-edge treatments. I hope, and will do the right thing.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Mr. Stalter, I've just read your article at the UFO Partisan site about Anthony Bragalia's persistent and detailed research into Battelle's involvement in studying the Roswell 'memory metal'. I also admire Bragalia's work on this subject and I think it would be a good subject for a thread of its own here (unless this has already been done in the Paracast forums). If you don't want to take the time to start such a thread, I'd be happy to do so and would like to begin it with your article on the subject, if that's all right with you. Just let me know your wishes. I'm also linking the article here.

The UFO Partisan: Roswell, D-Day And The Titanium Industry

I'll have more to say later, but the first half of the article is rather less than I hoped for. It's about an obscure World War II confrontation that went terribly wrong, resulting in over 700 deaths. They didn't exactly keep it secret, but basically drew attention away from it in a way that it would be overlooked in the fog of war. If you look it up, you can find a short paragraph about it here and there, but it's the sort of battle where commanders heads could roll because of the screw-up. At the end of the day, if accused of keeping secrets, they could point to the fact that there are reports about it — thus plausible deniability. Politics you see.

It doesn't demonstrate how we'd keep the Roswell secret — which may have involved the crash of an alien spaceship and the recovery of the craft and the occupants — which would be a development with worldwide impact. I hope you see the distinction.

With Roswell, the government could easily justify keeping a secret because of the implications to national and planetary security.

I hope the second part is more relevant to the discussion at hand.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

I read the entire piece. Still less than the sum of the parts. The theory goes that development of titanium might have been jumpstarted after 1947 because of reverse engineering of the Roswell wreckage. But the evidence doesn't sustain the theory. The degree to which production of titanium increased after 1945 would follow the natural improvement in production techniques. What about developing flat panel TVs, such as plasma and LCD, where only small quantities were produced at the very first, and it took a few years to build the components in sufficient qualities, for a lower cost, to allow mass production of the new HD TVs at affordable prices? Maybe that was all based on alien technology too?

The sole reason for the theory in the article is that the early history of titanium is murky, but that may merely indicate it was couched in secrecy during WW II to prevent our enemies from knowing what we were doing. To be sure, if there was a conspiracy to hide the alien origins, the military and intelligence communities could have devised a more extensive background history as a smokescreen.

What about solid state devices? Night vision gobbles? Yes, that's the Col. Corso stuff. Oh well.

This doesn't mean we haven't learned a trick or two from captured alien spaceships, but the connections are not well drawn. There is, frankly, no real evidence that any of our technologies were based, in whole or part, on what we learned from ET.

 

[manxman]

Just so as you guys know, 'brit's' in general are well aware of that event, it has featured in documentary snippits and televised war memorial service's for long years.

As an aside the bbc channels are full of ww1 re-actments and doco's now, just watched a re-enactment of the first shot fired, then a few more, 600 Germans just marched down the road onto the machine guns, for 2 mins, not diving for cover, and stepping over the fallen, and marching, 500+ dead in 2 mins, in a show of strength and discipline.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

You mean the failed military operation?

 

[manxman]

Yeah [exercise's].