Nina Kulagina and Psychokinesis In Russia

[Aaron LeClair]

Packrat, check this out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JYGqVA9xc4

Thanks. I don't think I've ever seen him before. I don't know what to make of him, but interesting no less.

 

[Michael L.]

That report says very little, really. It doesn't even say how things such as "10,000 volts/cm" were measured or with what and how one obtains a measurement is vital.

As far as the video you have posted, although I am a proponent of qi after teaching Shaolin gungfu for over 15 years, I would warn you that there are many, many martial frauds. Unfortunately, the audio was too poor (and my Chinese is a bit rusty) for me to catch a name but I do believe that methods to faking this exact type of qi demonstration is described in Leung Ting's books (Skills of the Vagabonds or Behind the Incredibles, Skills of the Vagabonds Part II)
. Both books are great references and, as my copies were borrowed over a decade ago and I have not seen them since, I cannot cite a specific reference. Since Amazon lists them, though, I think I just got two additions to my Christmas List!

When I was a regularly performing magician, I specialized in "weapons twirling," which is a mixture of real martial prowess and magic that originated with the Chinese version of snake oil salesmen.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

That report says very little, really. It doesn't even say how things such as "10,000 volts/cm" were measured or with what and how one obtains a measurement is vital.

None the less is doesn't state anywhere that the testers believe that she was trying to fool them or could see any trickery.

As for the vid i posted, i concede that is no way to verify any of his "show", but it is still interesting.

Michael, in your 15 years teaching Shaolin gungfu, did you have any reason to believe that the energy of the "qi" could enhance or improve your ability in your application of your gung fu?
Did any of your teachers or sifu, exhibit any extraordinary feats whilst drawing on the power of the qi?

 

[Michael L.]

That would depend on your definition of extraordinary I guess. I have yet to meet anyone who can make their sword fly to their hand Jedi style or fly or anything really cool like that. You can really hurt people by messing with their qi flow or "gathering" your qi. I have even met people who can break a single brick in a stack at the request of someone else (ie "Break the fifth one"). I have even seen, a very few times, what is often described as the qi glow, although glow really isn't the right term. It is more a weird discoloration in the area around someone's hand or feet kind of like heatwaves off a summer highway but not quite the same. But I have never seen any proven qi manipulation that did not require some type of physical contact. No PK, no Dragonball Z-style qi blasts, no distance healing even.

I am not some skeptic coming in to pee on everyone's parade, but I am also not a cheerleader for the paranormal. I think there is more out there than acknowledged by Western science, to be sure, but this just ain't it. Even the report posted is not exactly objective. Look at the references; the doctor is obviously a believer. The 'report' is a summary of the ladies powers, like a tale of the tape. The fact that they have powers seems a to be a given; even though the author says "alleged" at one point there isn't really an air of objectivity. Sure, it reports that researchers do not think they were fooled but it does not say why. It is hearsay. It does not prove that their methods were sound or that they know how to use their equipment.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Once again you are "guessing" that the doctor is "obviously" a believer.
You keep on guessing in the hope that you will convince someone that everybody thinks that Kulagina was a fake.
I could also "guess" that Dr Lebdev was a non believer and that colored his summation of Kulagina.
And why would the researchers report why they think that they were not fooled? That doesn't even make any sense. They weren't fooled because they examined and checked her, before and after the testing. No magnets, magnetic powder, no nylon strings, no silk strings, no guitar strings, g-strings or any other "string" theory was found on her or about her.

Using your logic i would say that there is no such thing as "qi, chi or ki" . It is just something invented by martial artists to promote their martial art over regular combat arts.
The "glow" that you saw was probably sweat in your eyes and the "5th" brick was probably pre cracked by someone before they were stacked and placed in the stack at the 5th point and then the same person then asked the exponent to break that "5th" one.
It all comes down to belief. You either believe she WASN"T or that she WAS a fake.

 

[Michael L.]

No, I am not guessing. I am drawing a conclusion based on his sloppy methodology, his sources and the overall purpose of the paper, which is to compare the powers of two different alleged psychics, not validate their claims. This suggests acceptance of their "powers" and does nothing to explain why they are accepted.


Qi was not a theory developed by martial artists. It is an integral part of the medical science of the area that also spawned martial arts and it is used by gung fu men just as we use anatomy, the circulation and respiratory systems and the laws of physics according to our advantage. And martial arts are, by definition, combat arts. The systems that dedicate themselves to qi development actually tend to remove themselves from the combat arena and concentrate instead on healing.


Qi glow I have no really good defense or positive explanation for at all, although qi is electrical in nature (it is merely the Chinese term for the electrical charge of the human body used by the nervous system) and could easily cause a visual distortion. The bricks, among other demonstrations, have been performed under conditions that would lend credibility to them. Believe it or not, it is harder to fake something like that than it is PK powers. The demonstrator would have to introduce a gimmicked brick, which is hardly impossible but can be guarded against, know the number that will be selected in advance and then place the brick in the proper position. To fake PK powers you need to merely ditch and then retrieve a gimmick. In some cases, such as when the researchers are only looking for something magnetic and you are not using a magnet, you will not even need to do that.


When you say "using your logic" you are suggesting that logic is subjective. It is not. In fact, trying to switch the argument away from psychics to the validity of qi is a common ploy of illogical arguments. Granted, it was introduced conversationally via the second video but has nothing to do with the Russian psychics.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I actually agree with you about "qi".
I believe in its power but you have not provided any proof of its existence. we can only take your word for it and from texts of ancient peoples, hardly definitive proof and therefore you are open to the same "irrational" debunking measures that Randi & Co. employ. They would tell you that there is No "qi" force.
Remember western medicine is only now admitting to some eastern medical theories but on the whole they are dismissed as quackery and fraud, which i think is a shame .
We could go no and on about the truth of Ninel Kulagina. I can present dozens of reports and facts supporting her and you can produce dozens of reports dismissing her. I think she will remain an enigma as it is impossible to test her again as she is dead.
I respect your belief about her and i am glad that this has been a somewhat rational debate and not descended into a name calling and mud slinging exercise. In the end we probably agree on more issues than you think.
I will leave this with you, having your opinion of her (and respectfully so)
and me with my opinion of her and agree to disagree.

Nameste.

 

[Michael L.]

I will agree to disagree, but would like end by saying that any investigation of this type of thing would profit from having a professional trickster such as myself on board. We are equipped to account for things that a scientist would not be.

As far as qi, it is probably more accepted than you would think. One of the huge problems is not the validity because there are many, many studies showing the effectiveness of Chinese medicine and acupuncture but that the unregulated nature of Chinese medicine led to many unqualified people running around. I have a friend who received a "treatment" in which needles were actually inserted with a hammer! Aiya!

Perhaps that needs its own thread.

 

[BrandonD]

Sorry, but that's crap.

Once someone has been shown to be a fake, why should they retain any credibility?

One obvious reason to look skeptically upon a psychic's "discrediting", is when the psychic is debunked by a person with the specific agenda of discrediting all psychic abilites.

You should really consider this with people like Gardner and Randi. They serve a useful function in the paranormal arena, but they have their own blinders which should always be taken into consideration.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Brandon. Have you read the rules to Randi's million dollar challenge?

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Brandon. Have you read the rules to Randi's million dollar challenge?

I have. I've had many interactions with Randi too over the years. Um, lets just say, that he is too much a disbeliever as certain people are believers. He has done some good work though, and I remain on a civil level with him. We need people like him, but please be careful they don't get too carried away. Even Carl Sagan warned about Randi in A Demon Haunted World. He complimented him too.

I haven't confirmed it to my satisfaction, but there is reportedly a guy that sent in a claim and was willing to take Randi's test. Randi refused saying it is impossible and therefore a waste of his time. The guy claimed that he could go with food and/or water for weeks. I saw the purported e-mail exchange on the net. To dismiss someone without testing them, defeats the purpose of having tests. Now, how someone would test the subject is another matter. But reportedly that wasn't Randi's issue. James had his mind made up already and shot the guy down.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Here are the rules as published on Randi's site. (It's quite lengthy).

The Foundation is committed to providing reliable information about paranormal claims. It both supports and conducts original research into such claims.
At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
To date, no one has passed the preliminary tests.



Rules

Application for Status of Claimant
[This became effective on Sunday, April 1st, 2007, replacing the previous version of the Application; the nature of the One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge in regard to those to who may now apply, has now changed substantially.]
This statement outlines the rules covering the offer made by this Foundation (JREF) concerning psychic, supernatural or paranormal claims. Since claims vary greatly in character and scope, specific rules must be formulated for each applicant. All applicants must agree to the rules set forth herein before any formal agreement can be entered into. Completing this form is mandatory; there are no exceptions to this rule.
Applicant will declare agreement by signing this form where indicated before a notary public and returning the form to the James Randi Educational Foundation. Applicant must state clearly what is being claimed as the special ability upon which they wish to be tested, and test protocols must be agreed upon by both parties before any testing will take place. All tests must be designed in such a way that the results are self-evident, so that no judging or voting process is required. We do not design the protocol independently of the applicant, who must provide clear guidelines so that the test(s) may be properly designed and carried out.
All applicants must clearly identify themselves properly before any discussion takes place. Applicants must supply the JREF with a proper postal mailing address, and an e-mail address – if one is available.
This offer is administered by the JREF, and no one may negotiate or make any changes, except as set forth in writing by James Randi (JR). All correspondence must be written, and will be answered, in English only, except that properly-prepared translations into English accompanied by certification of the qualifications of the translator, will be accepted. Upon properly completing this document and agreeing upon the test protocol, applicant will receive the application back, signed by JR. At that point, the applicant becomes eligible for the preliminary test, which, if successful, will result in the formal test.
THE SIXTEEN OFFICIAL RULES GOVERNING THE JREF CHALLENGE:
I, James Randi, through the JREF, will pay US$1,000,000 [One Million Dollars/US] to any person who can demonstrate any psychic, supernatural or paranormal ability under satisfactory observing conditions. Such demonstration must take place under the following rules and limitations:
1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, and applicant and JREF will agree upon, what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result.
2. Only an actual performance of the stated nature and scope, within the agreed-upon limits, will be accepted. Anecdotal accounts or records of previous events are not accepted nor considered.
3. We will consult competent statisticians when an evaluation of the experimental design, is required. We have no interest in theories nor explanations of how the claimed powers might work; if an applicant provides us with such material, it will be ignored and discarded.
4. Applicant agrees that all data (photographic, recorded, written, etc.) gathered as a result of the setup, the protocol, and the actual testing, may be used freely by the JREF.
5. After an agreement is reached on the protocol, no part of the testing procedure may be changed in any way without the further agreement – in writing – of all parties concerned. JR may or may not be present at some preliminary or some formal tests, but he will not interact with the materials used, nor with the protocol, unless specifically requested to do so by the applicant.
6. In all cases, applicant will be required to perform a preliminary test either before an appointed representative, if distance and time dictate that need, or in a location where a member or representative of the JREF staff can attend. This preliminary test is to determine if the applicant is likely to perform as promised during a formal test, using the agreed-upon protocol. To date, no applicant has passed the preliminary test, and this has eliminated the need for formal testing in those cases. There is no limit on the number of times an applicant may re-apply, but re-application can take place only after 12 months have elapsed since the completion of the preliminary test.

7. All of the applicant's expenses such as transportation, accommodation, materials, assistants, and/or all other costs for any persons or procedures incurred in pursuit of the reward, are the sole responsibility of the applicant. Neither the JREF nor JR will bear any of the costs.
8. When entering into this challenge, as far as this may be done by established legal statutes, the applicant surrenders any and all rights to legal action against Mr. Randi, and/or against any persons peripherally involved, and/or against the James Randi Educational Foundation. This applies to injury, and/or accident, and/or any other damage of a physical and/or emotional nature, and/or financial and/or professional loss, and/or damage of any kind. However, this rule in no way affects the awarding of the prize, once it is properly won in accord with the protocol.
9. At the formal test, in advance, an independent person will be placed in charge of a personal check from James Randi for US$10,000. In the event that the claimant is successful under the agreed-upon terms and conditions, that check shall be immediately surrendered to the claimant, and within ten days the James Randi Educational Foundation will pay to the claimant the remainder of the reward, for a total of US$1,000,000. One million dollars in negotiable bonds is held by an investment firm in New York, in the "James Randi Educational Foundation Prize Account" as surety for the prize funds. Validation of this account and its current status may be obtained by contacting the Foundation by telephone, fax, or e-mail.

10. Copies of this form are available free of charge to any qualified person who requests it, or it can be downloaded from the Internet, at http://www.randi.org/research/Challenge_Application.pdf.
11. This offer is made by James Randi through the JREF, on the behalf of no other person, agency or organization. Although others may become involved in the examination of claims and may add their reward money to the total in certain circumstances, James Randi (via the JREF) will carry out the implementation and management of the challenge. JREF will not entertain any demand that the prize money be deposited in escrow, displayed in cash, or otherwise produced in advance of the test being performed.
12. This offer is not open to any and all persons. Before being considered as an applicant, the person applying must satisfy two conditions: First, he/she must have a “media presence,” which means having been published, written about, or known to the media in regard to his/her claimed abilities or powers. This can be established by producing articles, videos, books, or other published material that specifically addresses the person’s abilities. Second, he/she must produce at least one signed document from an academic who has witnessed the powers or abilities of the person, and will validate that these powers or abilities have been verified.

13. An applicant can be from or in any part of the world, and gender, age, race, and educational background are not factors for acceptance.
14. This prize will continue to be offered until it is awarded. Upon the death of James Randi, the administration of the prize will pass into other hands, and it is intended that it continue in force.
15. EVERY APPLICANT MUST AGREE UPON WHAT WILL CONSTITUTE A CONCLUSION THAT, ON THE OCCASION OF THE PRELIMINARY OR THE FORMAL TEST, HE OR SHE DID OR DID NOT DEMONSTRATE THE CLAIMED ABILITY OR POWER.
16. This notarized form must be accompanied by a brief, two-paragraph description of what will constitute the demonstration. Upon a protocol being developed, that description may be extended.
PLEASE: Do not burden us with theories, philosophical observations, previous examples, anecdotal evidence or other comments! We are only interested in an actual demonstration.
NOTE: No special rules, exceptions, conditions, standards, or favors will be granted without the mutual agreement of all those concerned – in advance. Any applicant who refuses to agree to meet the rules as outlined here, will not be considered to have ever been an applicant. Only complete agreement with these rules will allow the "applicant" to become a "claimant." Applicant, by signing, notarizing and submitting this form, signifies agreement with all of the above rules. Be advised that you should conduct proper and secure tests of your own to determine whether your abilities or claims are actually valid.

This application will be signed by JR and returned to the applicant by mail after a test protocol has been mutually agreed upon, and a test date and location have been determined.

IMPORTANT: Only claims that can be verified by evidence under proper observing conditions will be accepted. Also, JREF will NOT accept claims of the existence of deities or demons/angels, the validity of exorcism, religious claims, cloudbusting, causing the Sun to rise or the stars to move, etc. JREF will also NOT test claims that are likely to cause injury of any sort, such as those involving the withholding of air, food or water, or the use of illicit materials, drugs, or dangerous devices.



James Randi:


________________________________________
James Randi Educational Foundation
201 S.E. 12th Street
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316-1815 U.S.A.

Notarized:





________________________________________
(signature of applicant)
Several applicants have suffered great personal embarrassment after failing these tests. I strongly advise you to conduct proper double-blind tests of any ability you believe you can demonstrate, before attempting to undergo testing for this prize. This has saved many applicants much time and work, by showing that the powers were quite imaginary on the part of the would-be claimant. Do not choose to ignore the need for such a precaution. This advice is offered only so that the applicant might be spared these problems.

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[BrandonD]

Here are the rules as published on Randi's site. (It's quite lengthy).

I've read the rules before, but I decided to re-read them since you took the time to post them up here. But they are just words after all, and I really don't see how these words prove anything about Randi at all.

If I post words on my personal blog which state that I'm a nice guy, and then I go out and punch an old lady, which one of these should someone use to judge my character?

I've watched lots of videos of Randi, and I think that he performs a useful function in the paranormal arena as I've said before. I don't dislike him. But it's my observaton that he's staked a position for himself, and put much intellectual effort and energy into this position.

Judging from his public persona (which is all I have to go by), he actually has no interest in finding out whether psi abilities exist or not, because he's already concluded that they do not.

A person who has already drawn a negative conclusion about a mystery is unable be an objective judge of that mystery.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Actually, Brandon, i totally agree with you about Randi and his "words".
His test, the way he has it set up, is so complex that you have to pass his preliminary testing (by Randiite representatives) before you can even begin to be tested in a test that has the outcomes determined by you and them ( that's if they agree with your test or outcome).
Also who are the "independent testers" who sit on his judging panel.

I also agree that Randi does not believe that there is such a thing as psychic abilities or powers so he is biased from the start.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Randi and his randiite followers believe that the only people who can discover claims of true psychic ability must be using cheap magicians tricks and thus they can only be discovered by other magicians as only magicians (and apparently not trained scientists) would be able to reveal their methods of fraud.
What they don't realise is that, just because nobody can get past the preliminary testing and crack his test protocols, this doesn't disprove psychic ability.

"Why don't they take the test and prove him wrong? " i can hear the Randiites say. If someone did prove the case for psychic phenomena and crack his test do you honestly think that Mr. Randi would take out full page newspaper ads to say "I was WRONG!!" -..i don't think so. Would have to shut down his JREF website because he would no longer have any credibility?...never. Would he even pay out the Million Dollar Prize? We have no proof that he would do that, only his word. The word of a trained illusionist and trickster. James Randi has too much to lose if he is wrong.

People who believe in psychic phenomena aren't going to stop believing just because "Archie DeBunker " says there aint such a thing.
When the sun rises in the morning and with the setting sun in the evening , mediums, mystics, tarot card readers are gonna go about their business as usual, people are gonna continue to utilise their services, and there is not a damn thing that James Randi and his team can do to stop it and that galls their arses off!!!

Of course there are fraudsters and hey, they might even out number the real ones but guess what? Any one with any sense or good gut instinct can tell them a mile away they don't need Archie DeBunker to work that out for them.
And yes some people are gonna get fooled by them and guess what? People get fooled every day by car salesman, the door to door salesman, the f*****g weather man, politicians and governments, so what!!! That problem is more about those guillible people who believe anything, rather than those who believe in the psychic. Who appointed Magicians as the designated truth movement? They did! They act more like medievel religious inquisitors than truthseekers.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I will say that I've encountered MANY reported psychics over the years, and offer to test them. They usually back down. I ask, will you take Randi's challenge, they often say, "I don't want his money". I then say, give it to charity then..... They then avoid me.... Sorry, there is no reason to not attempt Randi's challenge. Take your own camera crew, and even if he does a bias job, expose him for what he is.... period.

 

[BrandonD]

I will say that I've encountered MANY reported psychics over the years, and offer to test them. They usually back down. I ask, will you take Randi's challenge, they often say, "I don't want his money". I then say, give it to charity then..... They then avoid me.... Sorry, there is no reason to not attempt Randi's challenge. Take your own camera crew, and even if he does a bias job, expose him for what he is.... period.

Take your own camera crew, good idea.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

I will say that I've encountered MANY reported psychics over the years, and offer to test them. They usually back down. I ask, will you take Randi's challenge, they often say, "I don't want his money". I then say, give it to charity then..... They then avoid me.... Sorry, there is no reason to not attempt Randi's challenge. Take your own camera crew, and even if he does a bias job, expose him for what he is.... period.

Take your own camera crew, good idea.

Seriously. Exposing Randi is good. So's trying to prove psi phenomena. AND, you can give a mil to whatever. Win win situation. There is no reasonable reason to NOT take his challenge. That I've been able to think of at least. So, if there are any legit psychics out there, take his challenge. If you don't know how to contact him, I can help you out with that. Randi did ask me long ago, to do my own test before referring anyone to him. So, I'll want to do some tests (over the net) first. He told me he gets a lot of worthless people that fail miserably, and it's a waste of his time etc.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

One of the problems is having to take a prelim test run by his crew to determine if you are worthy of taking the challange. How biased is that? . Many psychics have tried to get past that level but as JRERF explains -no-one has gotten past that stage yet.
Would they allow you to take tour own camera crew?
Taking the test still doesn't prove that psychic energy doesn't exist.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Why doesn't Randii get an INDEPENDENT organisation with people NOT picked by him to run the test but including representatives of his organization to oversee it? He doesn't even say who the independent examiners are going to be. How can that be fully objective?