Paracast Episode 11/18/2007 with Paul Kimball

[cottonzway]

The charges being levelled at Paul are laughable.
9/11 Truthers=Fundamentalist Fanatics
No amount of reason or facts can penetrate their bubble. It is a movement built on lies, misrepresentations, and half truths. To attack PK- just ridiculous. Luckily, I think most rational people with a interest in ufology appreciate the good work he does.

I agree with your point about those who Paul is an “agent” or whatever because that disagree with him. That is flat out paranoid talk. I just strongly disagree with him, and I guess with you as well reading your brief opinion on the subject of 9/11. What I would say about Paul is he choose not to address MY points, ,the guy who started this thread and took the time to ASK legit questions and point out various points about the 9/11 Commission Report that I have also read that were ignored for whatever reason. Not only did Paul; Kimball ignore or discard this question but every single person like yourself that has this view of 9/11 did the same. I am not accusing people of doing so for any particular reason, but only point this out because it is fact.

Look, if you assume the 9/11 events are whatever you think they are then fine. Good for you. One thing I agree with Paul is about reading the 9/11 Commission Report to begin to have an opinion that can come from reason. I have and I wonder whom on this site who agrees/disagrees with me on these points have read this for themselves? Nobody tried to claim that what I said in the very first post in this thread is incorrect. Can anyone do so?

Please, those whom “know it” to be true as what we are told, set me straight. Please, “give me the facts” that you say to have. I am not asking you accept particular theories or say to you that “here is the truth” but rather tell me where I was wrong on what is simply inside the 9/11 Commission Report. I’m not asking you to accept insipid videos like “Loose Change” or to scream “Pull it Larry, pull it” in front of Larry Silverstein’s office either. I am also not talking nut bag disinformation about “space beams, no planes, or racist garbage like the “Jews” did it either. Tell me, (random paracast forum reader) Paul Kimball or ANYONE else that 9/11 is said what the generally accepted story is based on t eh 9/11 Commission Report gave us.

Anyone? If you do not know what you are talking about with this subject pass. If you want to tell me otherwise please by all means do so.

……..

 

[musictomyears]

When it comes to 9/11, there seem to be four clusters of belief systems that people choose from and subscribe to:

- OBL plotted 9/11 in a cave and told his best mate Saddam Hussein about it, who promised to lend him a hand. Consequently, Afghanistan and Iraq had to be invaded and liberated. I would call this "The CNN view of the world".

- OBL plotted 9/11 in a cave and told his best mate Saddam Hussein about it, who promised to lend him a hand. Instead of invading Afghanistan and Iraq, we should perhaps ask the Arabs for the reasons as to why they hate our freedoms so much. The US administration and their allies shamelessly exploited the situation, and started a war over oil and strategic interests. I would call this "The Noam Chomsky view of the world".

- OBL plotted 9/11 in a cave and told his best mate Saddam Hussein about it, who promised to lend him a hand. However, the US administration knew about the plan, but let it happen anyway, in order to exploit the situation. I would call this "The illiterate conspiracy theorist's view of the world".

- 9/11 was planned and organised entirely in the US. OBL is nothing but a puppet and serves rogue branches of the CIA and other agencies. I would call this "The view of those who bother with reading everything relevant to 9/11, and who believe eyewitnesses that heard and saw bombs go off more than some learned engineers who weren't at the scene".

 

[DBTrek]

I believe the last 'belief' system, is more accurately described as:

- People believe that the US Government planned and executed the the 9/11 attacks for their own purposes. They also believe the pentagon was hit with a missile even though this explaination can not address the missing plane load of passengers that officially hit the building. Furthermore, they offer as 'proof' a series of bizarre videos and the 9/11 commission report, which was funded by and comprised of the very same government they suspect of carrying out the attacks.

So . . . it could be that the government attacked its own country, with missiles, while simultaneously a plane load of passengers vanished, and then comissioned a group of politicians to write a report exposing their acts . . .

. . . or it could be that there are a lot of kooky people out there that are easily swayed by conspiracy videos, and long, improbable chains of 'what-if' conjectures.

I know which I believe is more probable.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

I believe the last 'belief' system, is more accurately described as:

- People believe that the US Government planned and executed the the 9/11 attacks for their own purposes. They also believe the pentagon was hit with a missile even though this explaination can not address the missing plane load of passengers that officially hit the building. Furthermore, they offer as 'proof' a series of bizarre videos and the 9/11 commission report, which was funded by and comprised of the very same government they suspect of carrying out the attacks.

Where were the plane parts and dead bodies from this plane?
Just looking at the hole in the pentagon shows little if no evidence of a plane hitting it.
And the fact that a cessna trained Arab terrorist could precisely fly a large passenger jet into it is also a big leap of faith.

 

[DBTrek]

Where were the plane parts and dead bodies from this plane?

Right here:

Just looking at the hole in the pentagon shows little if no evidence of a plane hitting it.

Is that your professional opinion as a plane-flying-into-reinforced-concrete-military-structures expert?

And the fact that a cessna trained Arab terrorist could precisely fly a large passenger jet into it is also a big leap of faith.

Your professional opionion as a pilot?

I'm not trying to pick on you, rather I'm trying to point out that the leap of faith comes from people believing the points you've listed because "some expert" says so.

Again we're faced with a problem of probability. Is it more probable that a plane flew in to the pentagon, or that some black-op agency hit it with a missile while simultaneously a plane full of passengers mysteriously vanished never to be found? Is it probable that the vast majority of the witnesses to the attack are mistaken in what they saw, or that a small handful of witnesses are correct and the vast majority are delusional?

I wasn't there, so I'll never know for sure. But I am able to divine the best probability from the available information.

-DBTrek

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Where were the plane parts and dead bodies from this plane?

Right here:

Just looking at the hole in the pentagon shows little if no evidence of a plane hitting it.

Is that your professional opinion as a plane-flying-into-reinforced-concrete-military-structures expert?

And the fact that a cessna trained Arab terrorist could precisely fly a large passenger jet into it is also a big leap of faith.

Your professional opionion as a pilot?

I'm not trying to pick on you, rather I'm trying to point out that the leap of faith comes from people believing the points you've listed because "some expert" says so.

Again we're faced with a problem of probability. Is it more probable that a plane flew in to the pentagon, or that some black-op agency hit it with a missile while simultaneously a plane full of passengers mysteriously vanished never to be found? Is it probable that the vast majority of the witnesses to the attack are mistaken in what they saw, or that a small handful of witnesses are correct and the vast majority are delusional?

I wasn't there, so I'll never know for sure. But I am able to divine the best probability from the available information.

-DBTrek

Hopefully more surveillance tapes will be released which should show what happened at the pentagon. I lean heavily toward it being a plane, and some of the wreckage flew over the pentagon. The official report accounts for most the bodies, however, some think they just made it up. A lot of picking and choosing occurs with the official report.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

Where were the plane parts and dead bodies from this plane?

Right here:

Just looking at the hole in the pentagon shows little if no evidence of a plane hitting it.

Is that your professional opinion as a plane-flying-into-reinforced-concrete-military-structures expert?

So where are the engines, wings, tail piece,
Your professional opionion as a pilot?

I'm not trying to pick on you, rather I'm trying to point out that the leap of faith comes from people believing the points you've listed because "some expert" says so.

Again we're faced with a problem of probability. Is it more probable that a plane flew in to the pentagon, or that some black-op agency hit it with a missile while simultaneously a plane full of passengers mysteriously vanished never to be found? Is it probable that the vast majority of the witnesses to the attack are mistaken in what they saw, or that a small handful of witnesses are correct and the vast majority are delusional?

I wasn't there, so I'll never know for sure. But I am able to divine the best probability from the available information.

-DBTrek

What's this from, the Bob the Builder channel?
You've shown me a picture of a piece of metal and a fire truck. Is this your big piece of evidence?
C'mon! Lift your game. you'll have to do better than that!

I'm not trying to pick on you, rather I'm trying to point out that the leap of faith comes from people believing the points you've listed because "some expert" says so.

I say that the above applies to you as well!
I don't mean to pick on YOU but the evidence you have presented is half arsed.

Ask any pilot if it is possible to go from zero experience for flying a large jet liner to precision flying one at zero feet above ground into the Pentagon. If you don't believe me just ask one.

So where are the engines, wings, tail piece,
Your professional opionion as a pilot?

Well where are they? Were they found? Where are your pictures of those? You seem to be the photo evidence expert! Present a body of evidence to me and maybe i'll consider.

Why hasn't all the video tape evidence of the cctv footage been realeased?

Again we're faced with a problem of probability. Is it more probable that a plane flew in to the pentagon, or that some black-op agency hit it with a missile while simultaneously a plane full of passengers mysteriously vanished never to be found? Is it probable that the vast majority of the witnesses to the attack are mistaken in what they saw, or that a small handful of witnesses are correct and the vast majority are delusional?
I wasn't there, so I'll never know for sure. But I am able to divine the best probability from the available information.

As you say you weren't there! You are entitled to your opinion but thats it.

If the evidence was definitive then the majority of the conspiracy theorists would have dried up and blown away by now but the evidence presented for the arab terrorist theory just doesn't answer all the questions.
I wasn't there either but it IS probable that someone other than Arab terrorists was behind all of this.

 

[DBTrek]

What's this from, the Bob the Builder channel?
You've shown me a picture of a piece of metal and a fire truck. Is this your big piece of evidence?
C'mon! Lift your game. you'll have to do better than that!

I'm afraid I don't. The fringe minority will cling to their faith religiously whether I bring in a mountain of evidence or none, which is why the majority continues to write them off and move on with their lives. I'm not here to convince you of anything.

-DBTrek

 

[Aaron LeClair]

There are numerous photos showing plane wreckage. I've seen many conspiracy theorist say there is no plane wreckage, then when shown pics of it, they yell "planted". Then they dig out pics showing some truck carrying something with a tarp on it, and then say that the planted plane wreckage is under it. They have x ray vision. Wish I did.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

What's this from, the Bob the Builder channel?
You've shown me a picture of a piece of metal and a fire truck. Is this your big piece of evidence?
C'mon! Lift your game. you'll have to do better than that!

I'm afraid I don't. The fringe minority will cling to their faith religiously whether I bring in a mountain of evidence or none, which is why the majority continues to write them off and move on with their lives. I'm not here to convince you of anything.

-DBTrek

And indeed you haven't.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

There are numerous photos showing plane wreckage. I've seen many conspiracy theorist say there is no plane wreckage, then when shown pics of it, they yell "planted". Then they dig out pics showing some truck carrying something with a tarp on it, and then say that the planted plane wreckage is under it. They have x ray vision. Wish I did.

Personally i don't care either way. People on both sides can produce evidence and arguments to prove their points, for conspiracy or not.
There is enough doubt however to at least look into the claims a bit further as it seems that some of the official reports, according to some that post here, are not satisfying their need for truth whatever that is.

 

[musictomyears]

Thankfully, there is a vigourous debate taking place amongst professionals who know a thing or two about physics and aviation issues. Has everybody seen this site, for example?

http://patriotsquestion911.com/

That's engineers, architects and pilots discussing 9/11. Are these hundreds of professionals with PhDs in just about every scientific discipline tinfoil-hat conspiracy kooks? Really? Are they not qualified to discuss the physics of collapsing buildings? Who else would be better qualified?

Mentioned is also the former presidential candidate, General Wesley Clark. He said: "We've never finished the investigation of 9/11 and whether the administration actually misused the intelligence information it had. The evidence seems pretty clear to me. I've seen that for a long time."

Here is another site: Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

One needs to remember that these brave scientists and construction professionals effectively commit career suicide by coming forward with their dissenting views. There are bound to be thousands more who think along similar lines, but are too afraid to speak out.

The mental block for some people on this forum, and certainly for a lot of people in general, seems to lie in the inability or unwillingness to consider more than one kind of conspiracy. I'm sure many would agree that OBL and his minions conspired to hijack planes and fly them into buildings. That kind of conspiracy is psychologically and culturally acceptable, since the conspiring forces are located somewhere far away, in a distant, dark and dangerous land, governed by a culture we barely understand.

However, conspiracies that originate right here in our own backyard are very unpleasant to contemplate, but easily denied. I already mentioned Enron, which was a conspiracy that was planned by a comparatively small number of people, yet executed by thousands of mostly unwitting employees, in all corners of the world. This conspiracy *did* occur, there is no question about it. However, there are still people - even here in this bastion of critical thinking - that will claim "There are no conspiracies". How ridiculous is that? Do people ever learn from history? Apparently not. Apparently, a lot of people wake up in the morning and have forgotten already what happened the day before.

 

[Verum]

Musictomyears wrote..

This conspiracy *did* occur, there is no question about it. However, there are still people - even here in this bastion of critical thinking - that will claim "There are no conspiracies".

I know of no one, here or anywhere, who has ever contended that there are no conspiracies. The issue is the substantial evidentiary basis, or lack thereof, for a conspiracy. The Enron players were CONVICTED of conspiracy by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. On the other hand it is indisputable to all but a handful of fringe dwellers that many of the conspiracists' "favorites", from 9/11 to freemasonry, are founded on bad science, misuse of data and political predispositions. When the overwhelming majority of legitimate experts stands for one proposition, and a handful stand elsewhere, common sense would call for the outliers to present irrefutable evidence of their contrarian positions, such that the majority's position could not stand. Of course, that has never happened. Every single contention of the conspiracists' "experts" has been soundly refuted time after time. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Conspiracy myths, for the most part, can't even cross the threshold of ordinary proof, let alone extraordinary.

There will always be the vocal and misguided few whose primary foundations are that anyone disagreeing with their position is either sheepish, co-opted or uninformed. Only conspiracists can sound arrogant in what are, by every definition, disreputable and often silly positions. And what strikes me as most peculiar is that it seems conspiracists never met a conspiracy they didn't like. They represent a particular world view not a body of evidence.

 

[Montclair04]

What would be the incentive for any government to end the cover-up? Anything to do with UFOs is still, in the minds of most people, associated with both hilarity and horror. Governments only stand to loose by divulging information. In particular, they would loose their most precious asset: Control. They would have to deal with a frightened and disorientated population that would bombard them with questions, many of which are unanswerable.

"Were are they from?"
"What do they want?"
"How long are they going to stay here?"
"Have they been here before?"
"Why didn't you tell us about them before?"
"Do they abduct/rape/eat people?"
"Why don't we shoot them down?"

And so on. A public relations nightmare. No politician is going to choose that route. Not to mention the next questions:

"How did they get here? How do they travel such vast distances? Can we build machines like that? You mean, we have got them already???"

Haven't been able to check in for a while. Anyway I just don't think that there can be a conspiracy of silence when you are talking about thousands (if not more) of people in hundreds of countries - all taking a vow not to discuss this topic because they don't want to have to answer hard questions when it comes to UFOs.

People always talk. I need a better argument to convince me that governments know much at all about UFOs. The notion that there is a worldwide coverup is nonsensical.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

There are numerous photos showing plane wreckage. I've seen many conspiracy theorist say there is no plane wreckage, then when shown pics of it, they yell "planted". Then they dig out pics showing some truck carrying something with a tarp on it, and then say that the planted plane wreckage is under it. They have x ray vision. Wish I did.

Personally i don't care either way. People on both sides can produce evidence and arguments to prove their points, for conspiracy or not.
There is enough doubt however to at least look into the claims a bit further as it seems that some of the official reports, according to some that post here, are not satisfying their need for truth whatever that is.

If you don't care, why did you ask, "Where were the plane parts and dead bodies from this plane?"

Indeed, if both sides can make an argument, don't pick sides by implication of rhetorical questions.

Doubt, isn't proof of conspiracy. I recommend, not concluding when there is ambiguity.

I have no problems with someone willing to look into things further, so long as they aren't convinced to find something that they are already convinced is there. Drop the conclusions before looking, and let what's found dictate the conclusions. Not the other way around.

 

[The Pair of Cats]

There are numerous photos showing plane wreckage. I've seen many conspiracy theorist say there is no plane wreckage, then when shown pics of it, they yell "planted". Then they dig out pics showing some truck carrying something with a tarp on it, and then say that the planted plane wreckage is under it. They have x ray vision. Wish I did.


Personally i don't care either way. People on both sides can produce evidence and arguments to prove their points, for conspiracy or not.

If you don't care, why did you ask, "Where were the plane parts and dead bodies from this plane?"

Indeed, if both sides can make an argument, don't pick sides by implication of rhetorical questions.

Doubt, isn't proof of conspiracy. I recommend, not concluding when there is ambiguity.

I have no problems with someone willing to look into things further, so long as they aren't convinced to find something that they are already convinced is there. Drop the conclusions before looking, and let what's found dictate the conclusions. Not the other way around.

I make no conclusions on this subject (as you have quoted from my post). I merely produced a counterpoint to DB's argument. There were no winners or conclusive evidence provided by either of us. DB likes to argue and he is good to argue with, no malice at all, just good constructive debate as with most in this thread.
And what has been found? Mostly evidence from both sides promoting their case. For every person showing evidence for the "no conspiracy other than the arab terrorist theory" there is an equal amount from the "Neo-con Elite, Gov't sanctioned whatever theory". Both have valid points one way or another. There needs to be a thorough and transparent, public investigation into this as i think all would agree, even you PP, to clear this tragedy up! (I'm not holding my breath!)

If you don't care, why did you ask, "Where were the plane parts and dead bodies from this plane?"

Why shouldn't i ask the above if i don't know? No crime there as far as i know. But still, where are the bodies and plane parts?
I know there may have been more substantial proof provided within this forum and so if you have any information please feel free to provide it. I am open to both sides of the debate.

Phil.