Pentagon Disclosure or Disinformation?

[Celeste]

Hi, everyone. I posted a few times 3-4 years ago, but then I got really busy at work and didn't post, but I've kept up with the podcast and read posts now and then. I got back to reading more when word was out that the Pentagon would be releasing info. The closer it got to the deadline, the more convinced I became that they wouldn't really have much to say. I was right. The public didn't get a lot of info. I'm guessing that Congress didn't get a whole lot more.

However, it is significant to anyone who has been on the fence or hasn't been paying the subject much attention. I have followed the UFO stuff since I was a kid and I have always been a believer. And I still am, but I'm less sure now. I've been giving a lot of thought to just what the UFO/UAPs really are. I have watched all of the disclosure-type shows on cable tv, including the series by Luis Elizondo, Unidentified: Inside America's UFO Investigation. I probably shouldn't put a box around it but there seems to be a limited number of things that these objects could be.

Let's break it down and I will comment along the way.
Interdimensional Beings - I give that a 5% chance. Not because I don't think it's possible, but because I simply can't wrap my head around the multi-dimensional concept. The more I read of it, the more confusing it is. I just have no frame of reference.
Time Travelers - Again, I give it a 5%. As far as we know, time travel is still theoretical. Possible, but I think there are other, more likely, possibilities.

China, Russia, or another country or some breakaway civilization. - I'll give it a 15% chance. There are about 4500 satellites orbiting the earth, 2600 are currently in use; most belonging to the US. There isn't a whole lot that goes on here on planet Earth that isn't being monitored. I can't imagine that Russia has anything this sophisticated. Other countries are even less likely. Then there is China. That is just a big question mark.

China is a closed society and there is a possibility that they have such advanced technology. China is one to keep an eye on. The breakaway civilization theory has promise. I can see that as a possibility. There is a reason why most of Antarctica is off limits and is blurred out below a certain elevation on the Google Earth map.

Aliens - I give it a 34% chance. About as likely as it is that they are ours. If it's aliens, I think they have been coming here for many millennia. Perhaps they are our progenitors, creators, or ancestors. If so, they could make their presence and intentions known. Skulking around seems a bit unnecessary.

US Military - I give it a 36% chance. I know that Luis Elizondo and others say, unequivocally, that they are not ours. Really? These days, I lean a bit more toward them being ours. Let me explain why. To put it simply, I think the US military-industrial complex would far rather encourage us to believe we are being invaded by aliens than to let the public in on what new toys they have. Literally, billions and probably trillions of dollars are being dumped into military black budget projects.

These kinds of projects operate outside of normal procedures and likely have a blank check. They seem to have no accountability; at least, to the tax-payers and to Congress. I think they would literally stop at nothing to keep their secrets, including staging elaborate disinformation campaigns. Elizondo says they can't be ours because they turn up around our nuclear sites and we sure wouldn't be targeting our own nuclear sites. Why not?

Of course, we would! Wouldn't they have an interest in whether or not our defense systems are capable of turning on and turning off nuclear systems, both ours and someone else's? Or to make it look that way to foreign powers. Elizondo says we have nothing capable of the maneuvers that these UAPs are demonstrating. Maybe, maybe not. If we have been testing disk-like objects with advanced technology since the 40s, we could very well have learned to manipulate time and space, as these objects seem to do. We just don't know, and they are not going to tell us. Ever! Or at least, not the truth.

As I said, they would rather have us think it's aliens than our own advanced technology, regardless of where we got it.
Other - I'll give it a generous 5% possibility of being something outside of our current frame of reference. Something either living or AI that has an altogether different origin than we can currently perceive.

This is just my take on this disclosure stuff. I just don't think we are going to learn a whole lot from the Pentagon. Any thoughts?

 

[Gene Steinberg]

Welcome back and thanks for sharing.

 

[Trajanus]

Time Travelers - Again, I give it a 5%. As far as we know, time travel is still theoretical. Possible, but I think there are other, more likely, possibilities.

Right.

Then there is China. That is just a big question mark. China is a closed society and there is a possibility that they have such advanced technology. China is one to keep an eye on.

Very much doubt it. For one thing the phenomenon began or intensified, in 1947, long before China modernized. Also, China has sought to steal US technical secrets so I doubt they're ahead.

Aliens - I give it a 34% chance. About as likely as it is that they are ours.

Far more so IMO; I'd give it just about 100%.

Skulking around seems a bit unnecessary.

See The Alien Grand Design--a comprehensive view of alien planning and motivation. "Skulking around" or avoiding open contact, for now, is part of a longterm conditioning program.

US Military - I give it a 36% chance…. To put it simply, I think the US military-industrial complex would far rather encourage us to believe we are being invaded by aliens than to let the public in on what new toys they have

Frankly I find this absurd. Aliens could be too disruptive to society--precisely why belief in them is actually discouraged. And it's ridiculous to suppose the US military has been buzzing, even abducting civilians far outside its secret areas if it wishes new gear to remain secret. Lastly UFOs have been well-known since '47. Had they been US weapons by now they'd have come into general use. Why continue to build jets if faster, more agile saucer technology has been available for 75 years?

Elizondo says they can't be ours because they turn up around our nuclear sites and we sure wouldn't be targeting our own nuclear sites. Why not? Of course, we would! Wouldn't they have an interest in whether or not our defense systems are capable of turning on and turning off nuclear systems, both ours and someone else's?

Why weren't the personnel at Malmstrom and elsewhere informed of advance of a putative "test"? And why continue to build or maintain ICBMs if they've been so vulnerable since 1967?? Attacks btw have affected at least one Russian site; the US would be crazy to risk nuclear war by "testing" a Russian site.

 

[Squirrel]

Let's break it down and I will comment along the way

Interdimensional Beings - I give that a 5% chance.
Time Travelers - Again, I give it a 5%.
China, Russia, or another country or some breakaway civilization. - I'll give it a 15% chance.
Aliens - I give it a 34% chance.
US Military - I give it a 36% chance.
Other - I'll give it a generous 5% possibility of being something outside of our current frame of reference.

This is just my take on this disclosure stuff. I just don't think we are going to learn a whole lot from the Pentagon. Any thoughts?

.
Yup. I'll give it a 100% chance they all apply. I've never been comfortable with the idea it's "all this" or "all that."

-- Squirrel

 

[Trajanus]

.
Yup. I'll give it a 100% chance they all apply. I've never been comfortable with the idea it's "all this" or "all that."

I think much of the present uncertainty stems from a deliberate alien effort to confuse us. While the general impression is visitors from outer space, many sightings or behaviors appear intended to suggest other explanations, or to prevent us from reaching a final conclusion. For many decades, UFOlogy has stayed in a kind of limbo, with aliens remaining the leading explanation but with too much uncertainty, it seems, to resolve the matter. The aforementioned work, The Alien Grand Design, goes a long way to dispel it.

 

[marduk]

Whether any government admits they don't know what's going on or that it could be anything but it's real (which is what just happened, TBH)... the only thing that's ever going to disclose anything important is going to be whatever this phenomena actually is.

I firmly believe the US Military/Industrial Complex has no idea WTF is going on. They have fancy tech but they're no smarter than anyone else, and they're literally trained to think inside the box.

Whatever this is, it isn't even in the box's time zone.

 

[Gene Steinberg]

As I suggested, if UAPs are outside of their coverage area, they don't exist even if they land on the backyards of senior leadership.

 

[Elendil]

See The Alien Grand Design--a comprehensive view of alien planning and motivation. "Skulking around" or avoiding open contact, for now, is part of a longterm conditioning program.

Okay, so the book is only available in paperback from what I can see. If there was a digital version, I might give it a look. On the other hand, I'm also busy now with reading The Believer. So, let me try again - would you mind, in 2-3 sentences (or more, if you're willing), to explain what are the aliens really up to and what is their ultimate goal?

As for the OP stuff - I also find the China/Russia or even US tech far-fetched and unlikely. It's pretty hard to explain 70 years of a complex phenomenon with just that. Some sightings and cases, absolutely. But overall I find it also pretty hard to understand on how would someone off this earth have that tech and not use it. For instance on a battlefield and just blow the competition out of the water? Like it's been done with every advanced weaponry or tech throughout the ages.

Given the history and a multitude of cases and displayed abilities, unless there's a completely unknown psychological phenomenon that can affect multiple people throughout time and space and manifest similar experiences - I'm most inclined towards the external source hypothesis. In other words, not us. Now, inter dimensional, time-traveler, alien from this space/dimension...who knows.

I also find it plausible that the Military-Industrial Complex is also perplexed - with probably most of it not paying attention/not getting interested with stuff out of their coverage area. I also gotta say that I find it convincing that, if there really was some material recovered, that the stuff is being actively researched in an effort to get a technological advantage...

 

[Trajanus]

Whether any government admits they don't know what's going on or that it could be anything but it's real

Phony ignorance.

the only thing that's ever going to disclose anything important is going to be whatever this phenomena actually is.

Oh the phenomenon will someday make it very clear what it is but the government will also disclose.

I firmly believe the US Military/Industrial Complex has no idea WTF is going on. They have fancy tech but they're no smarter than anyone else...

That's what they want us to think but it's deceptive. They've known very well since 1947.

 

[Trajanus]

Okay, so the book is only available in paperback from what I can see. If there was a digital version, I might give it a look. On the other hand, I'm also busy now with reading The Believer. So, let me try again - would you mind, in 2-3 sentences (or more, if you're willing), to explain what are the aliens really up to and what is their ultimate goal?

It's a complex thesis and I couldn't begin to do it justice here (you can "look inside" not that the cost is prohibitively expensive btw). But the work opines that the ultimate goal is Earth-alien unity, and they're currently conditioning humanity in anticipation of their endgame, so to speak.

As for the OP stuff - I also find the China/Russia or even US tech far-fetched and unlikely. It's pretty hard to explain 70 years of a complex phenomenon with just that. Some sightings and cases, absolutely. But overall I find it also pretty hard to understand on how would someone off this earth have that tech and not use it. For instance on a battlefield and just blow the competition out of the water? Like it's been done with every advanced weaponry or tech throughout the ages.

Agreed.

I'm most inclined towards the external source hypothesis. In other words, not us. Now, inter dimensional, time-traveler, alien from this space/dimension...who knows.

ET is most parsimonious. WE are spacefaring aliens (albeit beginners)--from the perspective of the rest of the Universe.

if there really was some material recovered, that the stuff is being actively researched in an effort to get a technological advantage...

Assuming material has been known since '47, not much progress seems to have been made in that area; its main significance is proof of ET.

 

[marduk]

Phony ignorance.

Most governments seem pretty ignorant of most things most of the time. Why would this be any different?

Oh the phenomenon will someday make it very clear what it is but the government will also disclose.

They seem to have been here a very long time. Hundreds of years, if not thousands or more. The odds of them spontaneously disclosing anything anytime soon is quite low.

The only thing I can think of is perhaps if most of humanity just admitted they're there and turned our collective attention towards them.

But maybe not even then.

That's what they want us to think but it's deceptive. They've known very well since 1947.

Maybe Roswell happened. Maybe it didn't. Maybe someone's got chunks of stuff that they clearly don't understand, because nothing has ever come out of any of it.

Corso was full of crap. Fibre optics didn't come out of Roswell. Neither did IC's. Nothing he said did, all of it has provenance. If something landed at Roswell, clearly nobody has any idea how any of it works. Or it didn't work. Or they took it back. Or it was just debris.

 

[marduk]

ET is most parsimonious. WE are spacefaring aliens (albeit beginners)--from the perspective of the rest of the Universe.

Totally agree. 100%. This is why I think the ETH being viewed as 'quaint' by folks like Vallee drives me up the wall.
Uh, dude, we have a sample size of 1. If we assume we're in the big part of the average bell curve, other civilizations probably act a lot like we do.

Assuming material has been known since '47, not much progress seems to have been made in that area; its main significance is proof of ET.

100%. If we have it, we don't know how it works. Or we don't have enough of it to make sense of it. Or they're sitting on it.

Or they took it back.

 

[Celeste]

Right.



Very much doubt it. For one thing the phenomenon began or intensified, in 1947, long before China modernized. Also, China has sought to steal US technical secrets so I doubt they're ahead.



Far more so IMO; I'd give it just about 100%.




See The Alien Grand Design--a comprehensive view of alien planning and motivation. "Skulking around" or avoiding open contact, for now, is part of a longterm conditioning program.



Frankly I find this absurd. Aliens could be too disruptive to society--precisely why belief in them is actually discouraged. And it's ridiculous to suppose the US military has been buzzing, even abducting civilians far outside its secret areas if it wishes new gear to remain secret. Lastly UFOs have been well-known since '47. Had they been US weapons by now they'd have come into general use. Why continue to build jets if faster, more agile saucer technology has been available for 75 years?



Why weren't the personnel at Malmstrom and elsewhere informed of advance of a putative "test"? And why continue to build or maintain ICBMs if they've been so vulnerable since 1967?? Attacks btw have affected at least one Russian site; the US would be crazy to risk nuclear war by "testing" a Russian site.

I agree with you, mostly. I'm just throwing out the possibilities and how likely I think they are. I was pretty 50/50 on the ours/not ours thing. I don't find it ridiculous that the military could abduct civilians, they have done it before. Like I said, I believe them capable of very complex disinformation and pretending to consider aliens a silly source is certainly not something they would hesitate doing if it prevented their technology from being exposed to the public and in turn, our adversaries. You are likely right about China, but we know so little about what truly goes on there. It's a big question mark, in my mind. There are days when I lean toward alien or off-world sources. When I lean toward it being ours it is because the more I learn about disinformation, the more complex and likely it seems.

 

[Celeste]

As I suggested, if UAPs are outside of their coverage area, they don't exist even if they land on the backyards of senior leadership.

I think you are sure right about that!

 

[Randall]

Hi, everyone. I posted a few times 3-4 years ago, but then I got really busy at work and didn't post, but I've kept up with the podcast and read posts now and then. I got back to reading more when word was out that the Pentagon would be releasing info....

Hey thanks for listening and welcome back to the forum

Let's break it down and I will comment along the way.

Okay

Interdimensional Beings - I give that a 5% chance. Not because I don't think it's possible, but because I simply can't wrap my head around the multi-dimensional concept. The more I read of it, the more confusing it is. I just have no frame of reference.

Some insight on that one: Rutkowski and I, and I think @marduk too seem to be all on the same page with this one. I admire Sagan, but forget his whole flatland analogy. Secondly, people constantly conflate spatial dimensions with the variable of time. People who try to explain this shouldn't be saying time is the "fourth dimension". More accurately they should be saying it's the fourth variable together with the first three variables, which are the spatial dimensions ( for 3 spatial variables and one temporal variable ).

The next is to grasp that spatial dimensions have a hierarchical dependency, which is a fancy way of saying that there cannot be a second dimension without a preceding first, and there can be no third without a preceding first and second, and when you get to 3D, it extends infinitely in all directions, so there can be no "fourth" or "fifth" or "sixth" spatial dimension. Even if we imagine that there could be, because of hierarchical dependency, any 4D skyscraper would still be fully visible in all the preceding 3D spatial coordinates.

When you get how that works, you can extrapolate that all possible spatial dimensions must exist simultaneously everywhere, because you just can't leave one out or the whole thing collapses. So there can be no 3D beings that magically appear out of the "Fifth Dimension" ( unless maybe you're talking about the band members ).

Every single example I've looked into where dimensions above 3 are being used to describe some theoretical situation, they are in-fact using the term "dimension" a convenience term for theoretically micro or macro separate 3D spaces within the same larger infinite 3D realm we're in, but located or configured in a way that their 3D borders don't intersect with ours. For example, other universes like the one formed by our Big Bang may exist at some distant location beyond our ability to detect it. But it's all still in the same "space".

It gets really interesting when you start thinking about the possibility of generated constructs like in The Matrix where we're looking at virtual dimensions. But that's a whole other conversation. Basically. You can write the IDH ( Interdimensional Hypothesis ) off as pure sci-fi.

Time Travelers - Again, I give it a 5%. As far as we know, time travel is still theoretical. Possible, but I think there are other, more likely, possibilities.

The TTH Time Travel Hypothesis breaks down into the same sort of pure sci-fi as the IDH. The closest it can work out to is a parallel universe evolving identically to ours that either started sooner or later than ours, and beings are moving between the two, which would look like time travel from their frame of reference ( but it's not time travel — not really – not like we imagine it to be ).

China, Russia, or another country or some breakaway civilization. - I'll give it a 15% chance. There are about 4500 satellites orbiting the earth, 2600 are currently in use; most belonging to the US. There isn't a whole lot that goes on here on planet Earth that isn't being monitored. I can't imagine that Russia has anything this sophisticated. Other countries are even less likely. Then there is China. That is just a big question mark.

Yup.

Aliens - I give it a 34% chance. About as likely as it is that they are ours. If it's aliens, I think they have been coming here for many millennia. Perhaps they are our progenitors, creators, or ancestors. If so, they could make their presence and intentions known. Skulking around seems a bit unnecessary.

Project Blue Book pegged the Unknowns at around 26% during one of their studies, so you're not far off on that one.

US Military - I give it a 36% chance. I know that Luis Elizondo and others say, unequivocally, that they are not ours. Really? These days, I lean a bit more toward them being ours. Let me explain why. To put it simply, I think the US military-industrial complex would far rather encourage us to believe we are being invaded by aliens than to let the public in on what new toys they have. Literally, billions and probably trillions of dollars are being dumped into military black budget projects.

Lots of UFO reports ( not to be confused with ufos themselves ) turn out to be aircraft of some kind.

Other - I'll give it a generous 5% possibility of being something outside of our current frame of reference. Something either living or AI that has an altogether different origin than we can currently perceive.

This is just my take on this disclosure stuff. I just don't think we are going to learn a whole lot from the Pentagon. Any thoughts?

I agree that 5% Other is generous given our current understanding of the world and what possibilities there could be. I suppose maybe the VRH ( Virtual Reality Hypothesis ) might fall into the Other category though, and philosophers like David Chalmers think there's a much higher chance than that, that we are living in one such VR construct. Food for thought. ?

 

[Trajanus]

Most governments seem pretty ignorant of most things most of the time. Why would this be any different?

If laymen like Friedman can get enough info to reach a conclusion, the government probably did, secretly, a long time ago.

They seem to have been here a very long time. Hundreds of years, if not thousands or more. The odds of them spontaneously disclosing anything anytime soon is quite low.

Not spontaneously, but after certain requisite conditions exist.

Maybe Roswell happened. Maybe it didn't. Maybe someone's got chunks of stuff that they clearly don't understand, because nothing has ever come out of any of it.

Roswell certainly happened. In his recent tome, Randle may be bothered by lack of definitive, layman-accessible evidence for ET after all these years. But that's only to be expected given a coverup, and it's noteworthy that NO prosaic explanation has ever been found, as Randle indicates clearly.

Corso was full of crap. Fibre optics didn't come out of Roswell.

Right, in fact The Alien Grand Design labels him a disinfo agent--one of many--and shows the purpose of his nonsense--his and many others.

Nothing he said did, all of it has provenance. If something landed at Roswell, clearly nobody has any idea how any of it works. Or it didn't work. Or they took it back. Or it was just debris.

Probably the latter.

 

[Trajanus]

Totally agree. 100%. This is why I think the ETH being viewed as 'quaint' by folks like Vallee drives me up the wall.

?

Uh, dude, we have a sample size of 1. If we assume we're in the big part of the average bell curve, other civilizations probably act a lot like we do

I think they have the same basic concerns--and are prepared to let the end justify the means--but are extremely sophisticated and subtle.

 

[Trajanus]

I don't find it ridiculous that the military could abduct civilians, they have done it before.

Dressed like ETs?

Like I said, I believe them capable of very complex disinformation

Yes, absolutely! But not utilizing the ET idea for the purpose you suggest.

and pretending to consider aliens a silly source is certainly not something they would hesitate doing if it prevented their technology from being exposed to the public and in turn, our adversaries.

But the government has clearly and long discouraged belief in aliens. It doesn't make sense to attribute sightings of alleged government technology to something whose existence hasn't even been definitively established in the minds of most people. Many in fact dismiss it outright. Covering up technology can be achieved a lot more easily and without controversy by either keeping it in restricted areas (whereas UFOs buzz even urban areas at times!) or attributing sightings to meteors, stars or other prosaic things.

 

[Celeste]

But the government has clearly and long discouraged belief in aliens. It doesn't make sense to attribute sightings of alleged government technology to something whose existence hasn't even been definitively established in the minds of most people.

I have no good explanation for them dressing up like aliens. I mean, I know of no direct photos or videos of aliens that haven't been debunked or at least questioned. All we have are the stories of people who say they saw them or were abducted. I'd never say it didn't happen, but I'm waiting for solid evidence. I'm happy to change my mind. I just want more info. You know the saying, "You protest too much"? I have no trouble imagining that the military is more than capable of appearing to vehemently discourage belief in aliens because they know that people will do just the opposite. It's called deflection. I want to see strong, believable evidence. How about they release some of those videos and photos of various craft zipping in and out of our atmosphere from the surveillance satellites in orbit?

 

[Trajanus]

I have no good explanation for them dressing up like aliens. I mean, I know of no direct photos or videos of aliens that haven't been debunked or at least questioned. All we have are the stories of people who say they saw them or were abducted.

There is some physical evidence for abductions such as injuries or implants. Footprints have been reported at Socorro, and the O'Barsky site in NJ. At least one case, Hills '61, was partly corroborated by a radar sighting, while multiple witnesses were involved in Alagash and elsewhere.
Of course skeptics will question everything but there are plenty of reports (and photos) for which no prosaic explanation has ever been found, even after decades.

I'd never say it didn't happen, but I'm waiting for solid evidence.

You can't expect definitive proof as long as the government covers up and ET avoids open contact. Nevertheless there are still ample grounds for belief ET is here.

I have no trouble imagining that the military is more than capable of appearing to vehemently discourage belief in aliens because they know that people will do just the opposite. It's called deflection.

You mean nobody believes the official line on Roswell or UFOs generally?? Belief does appear to be slowing spreading, but government debunking has generally been effective. Those who doubt the official line do so on the basis of contrary evidence.
It's absurd to insist that UFO reports are really technology the government wants to conceal, in part because of the sheer conspicuousness of so many UFOs, and their tendency to appear where they're certain to be seen.