POLL: Do Not Talk About Proven Charlatans?

[David Biedny]

Freedom of speech is indeed a critical issue, and I understand that the swastika reminds people of the atrocities of the Nazis, but I'm a human being, and it is indeed disturbing to me that this image shows up here on my mother's birthday. Does the Paracast have to spend time and money maintaining a forum so that anyone can type anything here, even with the purpose of shocking with no real purpose other than to shock? I don't think so. This is a community, and as such, we should be able to set some standards. That's not oppression, it's just reasonable civility.

Years ago, as a vocal and visible member of the computer community, I was approached by some friends involved in the creation of internet newsgroups, when neo-nazis were trying to establish their own online presence. They had petitioned for an .alt group, and a lot of people felt they shouldn't get it. I stirred up some real grief when I stated that they were entitled to their right of freedom of speech, and would not toss my voice into the con side of the argument. I also stated that it would be useful for them to post their thoughts and agendas in a publicly viewable group, the idea being that it's better to know what was on their minds instead of being in the dark. That said, one could choose NOT to read that .alt group. The Paracast forums are a privately-held and maintained area, and as such, Gene & I have the editorial discretion to edit posts and determine when things step over the line. The Meierites scream about how we cut off their freedom of speech - of course, they are more than welcome to say whatever they want in their own sandbox, and you won't see me or Gene over there telling them they are full of crap. They are just not welcome to push their nonsense HERE. You can walk into a church and scream that Jesus is a lie, and they will ask you to leave. You are on THEIR property, and you must behave accordingly. The Paracast forums are no different, in that this is a private venue, offered to our listeners and fans as a place to talk about paranormal topics.

If you want to make noise about freedom of speech, then let's get real, how many people here are aware that a wide array of Federal locations - state parks, government buildings, universities - have specifically designated "Freedom of Speech" zones? Think I'm kidding? I took this picture at Muir Woods in Marin county, just outside of the bathroom area:

Brought to you by the marvelous folks at BushCo.

So if you want to make your feelings about freedom of speech known, call your congressperson and demand to know why your Federal government restricts your freedom of speech and first amendment rights to specific designated areas of public property. Learn the difference between public and private property, and when on private property, behave like a rational adult. One of the core differences between children and adults is in appropriate expression - children have to learn how to control the impulse to say anything at any time, while adults presumably know something about the contextual appropriateness of speech and utilization of language.

dB

 

[CapnG]

Freedom of speech is indeed a critical issue, and I understand that the swastika reminds people of the atrocities of the Nazis, but I'm a human being, and it is indeed disturbing to me that this image shows up here on my mother's birthday.

Obviously to the rest of us the date has no meaning but from your perspective I can understand how that would be a genuinely unsettling coincidence. Downright creepy, in fact.

 

[DBTrek]

A few observations:

Freedom of speech is indeed a critical issue, and I understand that the swastika reminds people of the atrocities of the Nazis, but I'm a human being, and it is indeed disturbing to me that this image shows up here on my mother's birthday.

1. I was not aware of your mother's history, birthday, or any other information regarding her. That having been said, nothing within the context of my message was pro-nazi. All of it was anti-nazi.

Does the Paracast have to spend time and money maintaining a forum so that anyone can type anything here, even with the purpose of shocking with no real purpose other than to shock?

2. Of course not. You guys pay for the forum, you set the rules. However, suggesting that the pic was posted with no purpose other than to shock demonstrates a complete lack of understanding regarding anything written within the body of my post.

One of the core differences between children and adults is in appropriate expression - children have to learn how to control the impulse to say anything at any time, while adults presumably know something about the contextual appropriateness of speech and utilization of language.

3. This seems a little personal. Don't blame your irrational and emotional reaction to my post on my maturity. Other members of the forum were obviously able to grasp my point with ease, demonstrating that my utilization of language as well as imagery had conveyed my point precisely.

4. The tragedy of the holocaust was driven by people displaying the following mentality:

"So, do you agree or disagree to COMPLETELY put these people out of the forums here? I want all of them gone for discussion if they have been proven to be liars, frauds, charlatans, agents, or kooks. -Cottonzway"

This is the enemy you should be fighting. Not those of us that can properly identify those who display nazi-like sentiments.

-DBTrek

 

[cottonzway]

First thing I have to say is THANK YOU to David and Gene for removing that disgusting image. As a person who prides himself on being a good human being who tries to do the best for his fellow man I want to fight with every bit of myself against people like the Nazis.

It bothered me knowing that I am a person who tries to FIGHT tyranny to see someone say something like that to me. Even on a public message forum. I know that at times people don’t articulate themselves the best and can’t get what they are trying to say across the way they want but how someone could spin what I said and to think I would even be receptive to such a disgraceful image is beyond me.

If anything I spend a lot of my time that I am on these forums speaking on the 9/11 topic and to think someone would try and group me like that with my very public views on that topic is incomprehensible. So I HOWL AT THE MOON trying to help people understand that topic better (at least in my eyes what has gone on) and someone groups me with a Nazi because I don’t think it is helpful to give publicity to PROVEN charlatans?

If people want to talk about then and support them it’s their choice. I don’t find it at all helpful to getting closer to some idea of what is going on talking about snake oil salesmen. I really respect the concept of this show because the emphasis is on finding out as best can be found out, the truth on what is going on. David has said it on air many times; “I don’t want to believe, I want to know.” I agree with that 100% and it’s my notion that leaving the trash in the dumpster will get us to that point much faster. If people agree or disagree then fine. The few of you that made those Nazi claims, well get bent and someone needs to give you a beating.

I’m sorry to anyone who had to see that and was offended like I was, but I guess there are some people out there who really don’t think before they post.

 

[cottonzway]

DBTrek you are a piece of trash who posted a Nazi flag where it had no business and then try to call me the enemy. I feel sorry for you.

 

[David Biedny]

cottonzway, calling someone POT is a bit harsh and unnecessary. DBTreck is concerned about freedom of speech.

DBTrek, I understand the basic notion of what you're trying to say, so tell us, how many times have you called or written your congressperson to complain about the Fed policy of First Amendment zones?

dB

 

[cottonzway]

I think given what was said to and implied to me it was not harsh enough. It's offending for me for someone to call me or imply I am Nazi like and then call me "the enemy."

 

[cottonzway]

cottonzway, calling some POT is a bit harsh and unnecessary. DBTreck is concerned about freedom of speech.

DBTrek, I understand the basic notion of what you're trying to say, so tell us, how many times have you called or written your congressperson to complain about the Fed policy of First Amendment zones?

dB

David, he implied I was like a group of people I loathe. Then he didn't apologize for his gross mis-statement. After that he followed it up by calling me the enemy. So yeah calling him a piece of trash is being kind when someone talks to you in the way he did to me. He also said you were irrational as well, for the record. I don't think someone like that should like that should be given kindness and respect.

 

[Aaron LeClair]

Not familiar with it. I'm not surprised there is one though, since if I hold back on saying something (as mentioned in my last reply), it must be pretty bad.

As for freedom of speech. Many people don't realize freedom of speech cost us. We pay taxes and some of us have paid in blood.

The previous post I mentioned has been deleted due to having a quoted flag in it. I just wanted to let people know so they wouldn't try and find what I mentioned in parenthesis, not find it, then think I'm crazy. You can still think I'm crazy, but will need to look elsewhere for the reason.

From memory, I basically said that Nazis and/or the flag came to my mind to, but I decided against posting about it. Then I complimented a part of the poster's anatomy who posted the flag. In a metaphorical sense of course.

 

[DBTrek]

It bothered me knowing that I am a person who tries to FIGHT tyranny to see someone say something like that to me. Even on a public message forum. I know that at times people don't articulate themselves the best and can't get what they are trying to say across the way they want but how someone could spin what I said and to think I would even be receptive to such a disgraceful image is beyond me.

The correlation is easy to see. You requested that a class of people labeled 'Charlatans' be created, and that the mere discussion of anyone associated with this group be banned from the forums. That is (in two words) insane and nazi.

The few of you that made those Nazi claims, well get bent and someone needs to give you a beating.

I'll assume that 'someone' isn't going to be you, since you stopped your testosterone fueled rant short of outright challenging me to take you up on that offer.

DBTrek you are a piece of trash who posted a Nazi flag where it had no business and then try to call me the enemy.

I see a pattern developing. "Discusssions of the 'charlatans' must be banned from all conversations! No one should be allowed the freedom to mention anyone in the class of people labeled 'charlatan'! Those who disagree are pieces of trash!" You demonstrate my point so well.

To David's Point:

DBTrek, I understand the basic notion of what you're trying to say, so tell us, how many times have you called or written your congressperson to complain about the Fed policy of First Amendment zones?

As my Avatar indicates, I am an anarchist. I don't spend any time writing letters to 'elected representatives' because I did not elect them, and I reject the notion that I require them to represent or make decisions for me. The act of electing a representative is tantamount to freely giving up one's personal sovereignty in my view.

-DBTrek

 

[cottonzway]

So you again try and group me with this disgusting group of people without understanding how insulting you are being? You are damn right I gave a "testosterone fueled rant" and would do so to ANYONE who would dare group me with Nazis! What part of that is hard to understand!?!

 

[DBTrek]

So you again try and group me with this disgusting group of people without understanding how insulting you are being? You are damn right I gave a "testosterone fueled rant" and would do so to ANYONE who would dare group me with Nazis! What part of that is hard to understand!?!

The part where you state "It's time to call a spade a spade."

Then state "So, do you agree or disagree to COMPLETELY put these people out of the forums here?

I want all of them gone for discussion if they have been proven to be liars, frauds, charlatans, agents, or kooks."

Then fail to see how you're being nazi.

That's the part I don't understand.

That and why David is more disgusted by a nazi flag than nazi behavior. These are the two unsolved mysteries we face.

-DBTrek

 

[cottonzway]

The part where you state "It's time to call a spade a spade."

Then state "So, do you agree or disagree to COMPLETELY put these people out of the forums here?

I want all of them gone for discussion if they have been proven to be liars, frauds, charlatans, agents, or kooks."

Then fail to see how you're being nazi.

That's the part I don't understand.

That and why David is more disgusted by a nazi flag than nazi behavior. These are the two unsolved mysteries we face.

-DBTrek

What the hell are you talking about? You posted a Nazi flag and stated I should cut it out and put it on my shoulder so you could identify me. How on earth do you STILL not understand that is highly offending? Because I disgree that talking about known frauds in the UFO field means I'm a Nazi? What a scumbag thing to say about someone and then to top it off you aren't a decent enough guy to retract it. Whoever you are man, you are a disgusting person.

 

[CapnG]

As soon as someone throws down a statement like "someone needs to give you a beating" rational discussion has officially left the building.

The nazi comparison is, frankly, overdone. People automatically jump to the nazi example because it's the most obvious and extreme and that's just WRONG. It's reducing the horror and atrocity of the nazi regime down to some sort of evil charicature and to my mind that's dangerous because it potentially damages the historical reality. It needs to be shelved. You know who was as bas as the nazis? The NAZIS. Everyone else is a pale second on the evil scale (excpet maybe Stalin but that guy's in a class of his own...)

David, you made some excellent points however this statement caught me off guard:

One of the core differences between children and adults is in appropriate expression - children have to learn how to control the impulse to say anything at any time, while adults presumably know something about the contextual appropriateness of speech and utilization of language.

In real life I would hope that would be the case but on the internet? Surely you understand that the relative anonimity afforded by the internet causes each of us to revert to the level of 15 year olds? It's the nature of the beast I'm afraid.

Speaking of the internet, I would remind you it's just that: an international network. For example, I live in Canada. Why then should I be constrained by American laws? If you have to abide by the FCC's laws, does that mean I have to regulate myself according to CRTC guidelines?

Lastly, when I talk of freedom of speech, I'm speaking conceptually not about any pen-and-paper law. Speech laws it seems are always being pulled at by those who want to enshrine freedom of speech only for themselves and those they approve of.

 

[DBTrek]

Because I disgree that talking about known frauds in the UFO field means I'm a Nazi?

No . . . because you want to ban absolutely everyone on the forums from discussing people that fall in your arbitrarily defined class of "Charlatan". Any other classes of people we should ban from all discussion? What other forms of speech shall we forfeit so as not to offend you?

What a scumbag thing to say about someone and then to top it off you aren't a decent enough guy to retract it. Whoever you are man, you are a disgusting person.

And you are a person with a verbal arsenal that relies solely on ad hominem attacks and self delusion.

-DBTrek

 

[cottonzway]

You can stop with the ridiculous spin on how I am replying. You called me a Nazi, if people call me something like that then rational thinking is out the window. That is a personal attack on a man’s character and a despicable way to make a point to disagree with someone. You told me to wear a Swastika on my shoulder, a deeply offending comment to me personally, and you expect me to be polite to you? I don’t take kindly to people making assaults on my character like you did and I find what you said repulsive.

 

[DBTrek]

You called me a Nazi

Incorrect. I requested that people who want to control/ban speech wear a swastika so we could identify them from afar. The mentality you displayed in your original post is similar to nazi mentality towards free speech.

You told me to wear a Swastika on my shoulder, a deeply offending comment to me personally, and you expect me to be polite to you?

Your name wasn't in the swastika post whatsoever. You associated yourself with the type of person I was talking about (and rightfully so).

I don't take kindly to people saying "We should ban all discussion of [whatever]". I can identify the type of mentality that formulates such ideas and "call a spade a spade" as you would say.

You won't catch me apologizing for standing up when someone says "Let's ban this form of discussion". Defending free speech requires no apology. Attempting to restrict it does.

-DBTrek

 

[cottonzway]

I think you are a disgusting pig who also is also a liar. You posted that pic the other day and posted that I should wear it so you can identify me. You called me a Nazi. I have no interest in keeping this up with you because I won't talk to filth like yourself. I gave you the chance to realize you said something highly offending to me and to be a man about making really rude comments. I don't at all mind if people disgaree with me and quite frankly I welcome it. It makes for better conversations and you learn things that way. You made a disgusting comment after posting an even more disgusting image and now you deny making the exact claims you posted. You a liar man, welcome to my ignore list.

 

[DBTrek]

More ad hominem and self delusion, just like I said.

It is unfortunate that Gene removed that post. I garauntee your name wasn't in it. However, I'm content that anyone who followed this thread remembers what I posted. Your own words and actions in this thread have revealed your character far beyond any insult I could fling your way. Thank you for demonstrating the accuracy of my assessment.

-DBTrek

 

[Koji K.]

I voted 'Yes.' Personally I think this show is one of the last remaining venues for relatively reasonable chat about the paranormal, and there are, unfortunately, way too many proven charlatans in this field.

I fail to see how this is a freedom of speech issue. It's not a vote to repeal the 1st Amendment. It's a vote about what to talk about on a podcast. As a 'consumer' of this 'product,' given the opportunity to weigh in on what should and shouldn't be featured, I don't see why a vote either way implicates freedom of speech at all. When music radio stations poll their audience to see which tracks they should play, no one calls that a freedom of speech restriction.

Nothing's stopping anyone from saying what they want- anybody can start their own website or podcast these days and talk about all the more dubious paranormal chicanery they want.

I've lived in places where you can get 'disappeared' for simply gathering in groups of 4 or more, in your own home, for a discussion about politics. That's a freedom of speech issue. This isn't.

Now, if you simply like hearing about nutcases and hoaxers, that's a different matter, and a perfectly good reason to vote 'No.'

As an aside, this thread seems a perfect example of Godwin's Law in action:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.

Godwin's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia