Public's interest in UFOs (TV/Radio/Books/Magazines)

[Kieran]

I really don't think it is 'pretty obvious' that it was a hoax by college students any more than it is 'pretty obvious' that Bentwaters was the result of a guy with a truck full of shit on fire or that crop circles, including a perfect Mandelbrot set, were made by two old geezers and a 2 x 4 in the dead of night. How many times have we seen this? Years, even decades later someone shows up and says, "I did it." And we just accept their word on it without any kind of investigation at all.

This is the sloppiest form of debunking imaginable, like Phil Klass saying, "It's plasma!" and actually having the gall to claim he's solved the issue. I would also say, "It's swamp gas," except Hynek was really raked over the coals, in my opinion unfairly, for that one. He took it in good stride, though, and even collected all the cartoons on it.

Just from what you have read, do you think, there is a possibility that it could have been a government project or do you think that is impossible. I am very doubtful of a hoax by college students, i do not think that is the right answer.

 

[Trajanus]

I do not disagree with you on that point, but we still have to be open to the possibility that what Zamora saw was a secret government project of some kind.

1964 was so long ago you'd think any technology classified then would've been revealed by now,

A ladder seems a very simplistic device to me for a advanced race to be using, i guess they use the simple method' like us to get out and up into the craft.

Sure, there are accounts of aliens using ladders.

 

[Trajanus]

Just from what you have read, do you think, there is a possibility that it could have been a government project or do you think that is impossible. I am very doubtful of a hoax by college students, i do not think that is the right answer.

There is no known documentation that points to a government project. I agree it wasn't a hoax.

 

[Trajanus]

I really don't think it is 'pretty obvious' that it was a hoax by college students any more than it ......This is the sloppiest form of debunking imaginable....

Frank sure has run into opposition on KDR's blog.

 

[Ezechiel]

I do not disagree with you on that point, but we still have to be open to the possibility that what Zamora saw was a secret government project of some kind. A ladder seems a very simplistic device to me for a advanced race to be using, i guess they use the simple method' like us to get out and up into the craft.

LOL. Beam me down scotty. Where beams are 2x4 studs from planet wood ROFL

 

[Kieran]

1964 was so long ago you'd think any technology classified then would've been revealed by now,



Sure, there are accounts of aliens using ladders.

I do not think it would be declassified, the ship or craft when it was in flight was silent agreed. Now just for arguments sake say' Roswell happened in 1947 and maybe we had a few other crashes scattered around the United States and elsewhere. We assume the craft are light years ahead in technology and we also assume such technology would be hard to replica even today, never mind in the 1950's or 1960s

The inside of an alien craft, could contain items and objects.Which no matter how much you try to copy' you can never be successful, due to the fact that such technology does not exist on the planet. Now again for argument sake, say the ability to create an engine similar to the Roswell craft engine' the technology was around in the 1950s, Those people in the black projects' then just drew up plans for the making of that engine. The materials and parts and workers were found and they took a number of years to build there own craft, with there own engine/silent engine from Et technology.

We may have Black project craft? but for a number of reasons, they are not declassified even today.. One reason' for why' that could be the case is that these human made craft are flying silent, and the use of petrol or any simple fossil fuels is no longer needed. It pretty much ruin the petrol business and money is money, so why would you reveal such projects? I have to remain open to the possibility, that what Zamora saw was a crude early version of the testing of a black project craft.

Well ladders seem very simple still to me for advanced race. From everything we have read, i find it hard to imagine a Grey climbing down a ladder. I think If you picture it your head' you get what i am saying.

 

[Frank Stalter]

Frank sure has run into opposition on KDR's blog.

With any kind of luck, Rudiak and Sawyer will just start arguing with each other.

 

[Schuyler]

Just from what you have read, do you think, there is a possibility that it could have been a government project or do you think that is impossible. I am very doubtful of a hoax by college students, i do not think that is the right answer.

I think a government project is a definite possibility. There's really nothing in Zamora's account that suggests 'aliens' or space. I just checked Zamora's recollection in Stanford's "Socorro 'Saucer' in a Pentagon Pantry" (and discovered it is autographed by the author!) and Zamora does say, "They appeared normal. Small though--maybe the size of boys." (p. 20) However, he was 150 yards away from them--1-1/2 football fields--at the time. (ibid) That's quite a distance for observing.

In any case, the description of the object, which had a HUGE landing gear--not just three sticks coming out the bottom--fits the description of a lunar lander type craft pretty well. Not saying is was, definitely, but it certainly cannot be ruled out.

 

[dhatz]

Request to moderators: Is it possible to move the posts related to the Zamora / Soccoro case to a different, more appropriately named thread?

Going back to this thread's subject of public interest in UFOs, as suggested by the success (or lack thereof) of TV / Radio / magazines etc dealing with UFOs.

I agree with previous posters that UFOs are certainly not in the front-line of today's pressing issues (from economy to swine flu etc). However, cable channels seem to have plenty of air time to devote to TV shows about subjects from ghosts to ... vampires.

 

[Kieran]

I think a government project is a definite possibility. There's really nothing in Zamora's account that suggests 'aliens' or space. I just checked Zamora's recollection in Stanford's "Socorro 'Saucer' in a Pentagon Pantry" (and discovered it is autographed by the author!) and Zamora does say, "They appeared normal. Small though--maybe the size of boys." (p. 20) However, he was 150 yards away from them--1-1/2 football fields--at the time. (ibid) That's quite a distance for observing.

In any case, the description of the object, which had a HUGE landing gear--not just three sticks coming out the bottom--fits the description of a lunar lander type craft pretty well. Not saying is was, definitely, but it certainly cannot be ruled out.

Interesting, in a previous post i have a theory that maybe if Roswell happened, they could have designed an engine/maybe similar to the one contained in the Roswell craft. I not saying that is the case.

I wonder also about the "Belgium triangle flap of the 90's, where we see in photographs' a small triangle craft', This purely from my own thoughts. Is this a Black project design' build by us, well us humans not Aliens and it using a technology that was gained from the Roswell craft? People in the aviation Industry more and likely have looked at other alternatives down through the years.. but there is one difference, if the Roswell case happened, the people who got to look inside the craft, and look around and see the engine' have the advantage of seeing a working model. So it would depend on a number of factors, could we? had we the materials and parts? it a guessing game really.

Back to the Belgian case of the 1990's, To me looking at that craft.. i really thing there is a possibility that this is a Black project craft, and it not being revealed just for one reason.. it runs silent, and if it is running silent, what power is it using? I read somewhere about a secret craft called the AURORA' i not sure if this what it is? or something else.

Zamora case, the lunar type craft is a real possibility.. the timeline Zamora had his sighting was the early sixties and man did not reach the moon till 1969. So could they have been testing something out there to prepare themselves for the Moon landing. I can not say for sure, but some parts of the story seem not too alien to me.

 

[Trajanus]

I do not think it would be declassified, the ship or craft when it was in flight was silent agreed. Now just for arguments sake say' Roswell happened in 1947 and maybe we had a few other crashes scattered around the United States and elsewhere.....Now again for argument sake, say the ability to create an engine similar to the Roswell craft engine' the technology was around in the 1950s, Those people in the black projects' then just drew up plans for the making of that engine. The materials and parts and workers were found and they took a number of years to build there own craft, with there own engine/silent engine from Et technology....

We may have Black project craft? but for a number of reasons, they are not declassified even today.. One reason' for why' that could be the case is that these human made craft are flying silent, and the use of petrol or any simple fossil fuels is no longer needed. It pretty much ruin the petrol business and money is money, so why would you reveal such projects? I have to remain open to the possibility, that what Zamora saw was a crude early version of the testing of a black project craft.

Well for one thing, the occupants looked too small to be human. Also, it would be possible to reveal the existence of a certain type of craft without revealing the real secret--the mode of propulsion. I don't think a craft would be classified just to save the oil industry. The US and other idustrialized nations would be delighted to have and mass produce some new technology that would end our dependence on foreign oil and maybe end CO2 emissions.

Well ladders seem very simple still to me for advanced race. From everything we have read, i find it hard to imagine a Grey climbing down a ladder. I think If you picture it your head' you get what i am saying.

People have actually seen this.

 

[Trajanus]

I think a government project is a definite possibility. There's really nothing in Zamora's account that suggests 'aliens' or space. I just checked Zamora's recollection in Stanford's "Socorro 'Saucer' in a Pentagon Pantry" (and discovered it is autographed by the author!) and Zamora does say, "They appeared normal. Small though--maybe the size of boys." (p. 20) However, he was 150 yards away from them--1-1/2 football fields--at the time. (ibid) That's quite a distance for observing.

Now IIIRC footprints seen later confirmed the small size. UFO occupants are often smalll but they wouldn't employ boys in a government project.

In any case, the description of the object, which had a HUGE landing gear--not just three sticks coming out the bottom--fits the description of a lunar lander type craft pretty well. Not saying is was, definitely, but it certainly cannot be ruled out.

Still barely plausible IMO. For one thing a helicopter was supposed to have been ferrying it and Zamora could hardly have failed to notice the rotor blades. Moreover, if it was a by now declassified project of that kind why hasn't anybody in the last half century--project engineer, pilot, some relative--come forward to confirm it??

 

[Kieran]

Well for one thing, the occupants looked too small to be human. Also, it would be possible to reveal the existence of a certain type of craft without revealing the real secret--the mode of propulsion. I don't think a craft would be classified just to save the oil industry. The US and other idustrialized nations would be delighted to have and mass produce some new technology that would end our dependence on foreign oil and maybe end CO2 emissions.



People have actually seen this.

Well from the distance Zamora was observing 'to him they looked like teenagers, so if he was closer than he actually was, could they have become taller. You could not reveal a craft with a new form of engine/propulsion, because questions will be asked eventually to how it works and what power is it using' who was wrong then the conspiracy people? or the Government industry who produced the craft. Anyway if the propulsion it based on Et technology' it be would hard to reveal such a craft.

Not really like i said... Oil/petrol industry makes most of it's money from the car industry and i not sure you could make a new engine for the car from such technology. Would it be worth producing in large scale? would they lose money and never gain profits?

 

[Trajanus]

Well from the distance Zamora was observing 'to him they looked like teenagers, so if he was closer than he actually was, could they have become taller.

From what I've read, footprints found at the scene support his size estimate. And as KDR posted in his blog, Col. Jonckheere indicated at the time that no experimental craft was there or fitted Zamora's description.

You could not reveal a craft with a new form of engine/propulsion, because questions will be asked eventually to how it works and what power is it using' who was wrong then the conspiracy people? or the Government industry who produced the craft. Anyway if the propulsion it based on Et technology' it be would hard to reveal such a craft.

Unless they could fake propulsion by conventional means.

Oil/petrol industry makes most of it's money from the car industry and i not sure you could make a new engine for the car from such technology. Would it be worth producing in large scale? would they lose money and never gain profits?

OK so maybe the auto industry would go under. Did the horse and buggy interests prevent the internal combustion engine from running them out of business?

 

[Schuyler]

As I pointed out earlier, Zamora saw this stuff from 150 yards away. As an experiment, find yourself a nice open field or park and pace out 150 yards--1-1/2 football fields. Look back and see what you can actually resolve at 150 yards. If you did this with a friend and had him stand in place, when you looked back 150 yards he would be no taller than the width of your little finger with your arm stretched out.

Now place yourself in the desert with no other objects around to give you an idea of distance, height, shape, or size--no queues to help you out. You have an odd craft that you have no idea of what size it is, and a couple of 'people' in jump suits. It's not as if you have a couple of girls in bright yellow dresses running around screaming (which would give you a height hint right there). You have a couple of guys acting slowly, somberly, and like adults.

It's worth noting that when the craft took off, it emitted a 'roar' and a smokeless flame suggesting rocket propellant technology rather than the usual 'silent' 'anti-grav' kind of lift off usually associated with UFOs.

The indentations found after the fact show clear evidence of the landing gear as well as two impressions of the ladder. They did find faint footprints in one area including one "like a heel print witgh the instep over a small clump of grass" (p. 45) One witness, patrolman Ted Jordan, said they looked like they were "formed by a person or persons with relatively small feet, wearing shoes." They were also 'less well defined' than the other indentations. Though we have pictures of the landing indentations, there are no pictures of the footprints. This seems an odd lapse in the investigation.

As I understand it, the landing gear indentations are still there. I saw a documentary where Zamora gave a rare interview only a few months ago. They returned to the site and pointed out the areas. The footprints, of course, are long gone.

 

[Trajanus]

It's worth noting that when the craft took off, it emitted a 'roar' and a smokeless flame suggesting rocket propellant technology rather than the usual 'silent' 'anti-grav' kind of lift off usually associated with UFOs.

On the other hand IIRC after the craft rose, the flame went out as the craft kept going, suggesting it wasn't the real source of propulsion.

One witness, patrolman Ted Jordan, said they looked like they were "formed by a person or persons with relatively small feet

So despite all the uncertainty of a size estimate made from a distance of 150 yards, some physical evidence appears to corroborate it.

 

[Schuyler]

Trajanus, for Chrissakes! You seem completely vested in the idea that this was a 'real' UFO. Go ahead and believe that. Be a believer. I don't give a shit. I provided the footprint data simply so I could not be accused of ignoring it to prove my case. You're welcome. I am saying that it is POSSIBLE this was a terrestrial craft and POSSIBLE it was made by us.

The fact is, we HAVE NO FOOTPRINTS! Why not? They took pictures of every indentation they could find EXCEPT the footprints. Why didn't they take a plaster cast of the footprints and PROVE for all time that they really were 'small.' Instead, we have one witness, and one witness only, who SAYS they appeared small to him even though they were 'indistinct' and incomplete. Now why would he say that? Is it because Zamora had been telling him these guys were small? Do you think that influenced him at all? Did he measure the footprints? No. So how did he know they were 'small'? If you measure the heel print of my boot, it looks small, too: 3" x 2-1/2". If you don't have the entire footprint, you can't tell that this boot is nearly 12" long.

So what do you have here? After talking to Zamora about the sighting beforehand one trooper says he saw some footprints that were 'small.' He admits they are indistinct, says only one heel was clearly visible, takes no pictures, no plaster casts, no measurements at all. THAT, in a court of law, is pretty flimsy evidence.

As for the propulsion system, the fact that the craft turned silent doesn't negate or explain the fact that it took off like a rocket, including noise and flame. If that wasn't the craft's propulsion system, why did it do that? Why was it necessary?

Now, look at the picture below. It's of a field in front of my house. It was taken with a digital camera with a typical 50mm lens last December. Look across the field at ground level. See the big fir tree in the middle? Now look to the left until you see a bright white dot. It's centered between the big tree and the first house to the left (thus giving you a visual queue Zamora did not have.)

That dot is a snow covered rock that is about 8 feet high marking the entrance to the sub-development. My house is behind the big tree. The rock is immediately in front of my driveway. The distance between the camera and the rock is right on 150 yards. I just measured it, in the rain, a few minutes ago. It is 180 30" steps from the point of the camera to the rock as measured by a pedometer. Uncanny, huh? This also shows the difficulty of perspective. The house on the left is at about 100 yards. The house to the left of the rock is about 200 yards away, yet both houses and the rock look equidistant in the photo. With snow on the ground, simulating the starkness of a desert environment, it's hard to tell.

Have you gone out to a field and measured out 150 yards to see how much distance that really represents? Are you going to tell me with a straight face that from that distance, 150 yards, with no visual queues of any kind, you can tell the difference from a 'small' man and a large one? ANYBODY would look 'small' at that distance!

Really?? If you can do that I would maintain you have Superman-like qualities and can also jump over tall buildings. If you are going to maintain a position, I believe there are times when you have to get out of your armchair, go out into the field, and make some observations of your own. You need to examine the evidence, find the citations, and follow them. That's what I have done for you guys here--actually figured out what '150 yards' means in real terms and actually gone to the source to see what was actually said in context. Have you done that?

When you actually examine the evidence, you see that 1) 150 yards is a long, long way, unlikely to afford you the luxury of being able to tell a small man from a large one (Zamora wore glasses, by the way, so it's unlikely he had super-human vision), and 2) The 'footprint' evidence, though it exists, is flimsy and unusually poorly documented--especially give the scrutiny applied to other indentations in the case.

I don't believe a bunch of college students did this. I don't believe it was a hoax. But I do believe (and have demonstrated) that there is as much evidence for human origins as there is 'aliens from space.'

 

[Trajanus]

I am saying that it is POSSIBLE this was a terrestrial craft and POSSIBLE it was made by us.

Highly unlikely at best. Col. Jonckheere denied that any experimental craft was responsible, or even fitted Zamora's description. There was never any documentation, nor ANY witness testimony, from a pilot, engineer or relative, in the half century since, which points to that conclusion. Indeed the lack of a good case for Surveyor or what not is probably why this hoax nonsense was publicized by debunkers.

After talking to Zamora about the sighting beforehand one trooper says he saw some footprints that were 'small.' He admits they are indistinct, says only one heel was clearly visible, takes no pictures, no plaster casts, no measurements at all. THAT, in a court of law, is pretty flimsy evidence.

I think Lorenzen later corroborated the footprints and their small size.

As for the propulsion system, the fact that the craft turned silent doesn't negate or explain the fact that it took off like a rocket, including noise and flame. If that wasn't the craft's propulsion system, why did it do that? Why was it necessary?

Honestly I don't think it was necessary. UFOs display all kinds of anachronistic things.

 

[Schuyler]

Please tell me how you can resolve a few inches of height from 150 yards. If you've got more evidence for footprints, please cite your sources, including page number, Show your work. Thanks.

 

[Trajanus]

Please tell me how you can resolve a few inches of height from 150 yards.

I can't, or I would've addressed that above. Interestingly, though, one website refers to "small" footprints:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case90.htm

While Bragalia says the footprints are those of "teenagers."

If you've got more evidence for footprints, please cite your sources, including page number, Show your work. Thanks.

I know Lorenzen had more e.g. about footprints with some crescent mark, but don't have a ref handy. The real issue here, however, isn't the size of the figures Lonnie saw; not all UFO occupants are small. Above Top Secret page 372, mentions Frankel's preliminary analysis of metal bits from the Socorro site, indicating they were a zinc-iron alloy unlike anything produced on Earth.