Question for you Religious types

[Ron Collins]

If I am a geneticist and devout (insert theistic title or nomanclature here) and in the course of doing my work I run into some problems. Despite my best efforts and those of my team, I can not technically figure them out, so I prey for divine inspiration to help me. I then stumble onto a major breakthrough.

Q 1 - Is this breakthrough attributed to the divine inspiration and a direct answer to my prayer or unabashed luck?

Now suppose that my original goal was to create living brain cells and nerve cells from inert material to help quadriplegic's use their limbs again or the blind see again.

Q 2 - If these cells are incorporated into the brain and actually help the person in the intended way, is this not part of "Gods Plan"?

Now, lets say that someone else uses this technology to grow an entire brain and hook it to eyes and a spine. Lets firther suppose that we are able, through further manipulations, to engineer that brain to function at a diminished intellectual capacity but at a high dexterous capability. We then use this new being to do the "dangerous" jobs thereby sparing the lives of honest parishioner's. (yeah, I know there are some leaps here but the tech stuff isnt the point.)

Q 3 - Is this part of "Gods Plan"?

Q 4 - Does this entity have a soul?

Q 5 - Does this not make us Gods?

Just curious of your thoughts.

Oh, and you need not be religious to take part.

 

[CapnG]

Are you trying to parse a logical argument in a religious framework? You know that's impossible, right?

The notion of prayer invalidates the notion of a divine plan and vice versa. If there is a divine plan then prayer is pointless because if what you pray for does not fall within the perameters of the divine plan it will never occur and it is therefore a wasted effort, while conversely any prayer accomodated by the divine plan would automatically come true, thus eliminating the need for the prayer in the first place.

So, if there is a divine plan, then EVERYTHING is automatically part of that plan, no matter how troublesome/benefitial it may seem. Religious types will insist however that both circumstances exist and claim there is no paradox by using that most powerful tool of belief: the abillity to ignore reality.

 

[Seth]

If there is a divine plan then prayer is pointless because if what you pray for does not fall within the perameters of the divine plan it will never occur and it is therefore a wasted effort, while conversely any prayer accomodated by the divine plan would automatically come true, thus eliminating the need for the prayer in the first place.

Religious types will insist however that both circumstances exist and claim there is no paradox by using that most powerful tool of belief: the abillity to ignore reality.

CapnG you are absolutely right on this one!

Faith=belief=being convinced “something” exists when there is no evidence for it

I wonder if we ought not use this silly premise on our public arguments more because people eat it up: “God lead me to…” “I prayed and this was revealed to me…” “I am a complete moron but Jesus/Allah/Sheeva/Muhammad/Buddha says…”

 

[fitzbew88]

Are you trying to parse a logical argument in a religious framework? You know that's impossible, right?

I don't understand why this would be "impossible", would you mind expounding a little?

The notion of prayer invalidates the notion of a divine plan and vice versa. If there is a divine plan then prayer is pointless because if what you pray for does not fall within the perameters of the divine plan it will never occur and it is therefore a wasted effort...

This seems to assume that the Divine Plan has no flexibility and is worked out in every detail. Why can't the plan be a high-level plan, with the Divine only "bumping" it occasionally in whatever direction is necessary?

...while conversely any prayer accomodated by the divine plan would automatically come true, thus eliminating the need for the prayer in the first place.

I don't seem any reason to assume that "any" prayer that fits in with the Plan would "automatically" come true.

So, if there is a divine plan, then EVERYTHING is automatically part of that plan, no matter how troublesome/benefitial it may seem. Religious types will insist however that both circumstances exist and claim there is no paradox by using that most powerful tool of belief: the abillity to ignore reality.

"...both circumstances..."? You mean the presence of a Divine Plan and the usefulness of prayer? I don't agree with you that they are mutually exclusive.

Also, I have a little trouble with the characterization that "religious types...ignore reality." I think it's more fair to say that they they don't accept that "reality" is ALL there is. Their faith holds that there is something *more* than just "reality".

 

[Seth]

Fitzbew88,

You are assuming there is a divine plan. CapnG is saying if there is one as you suggest the premise of prayer is faulty.

A divine plan is Divine and therefore beyond the scope of you or me. A prayer is supposed to change the plan? Even when you are really sincere about it?

So, when I see these athletes praying before a game on national TV I should think that if they are sincere and if they want it bad enough god would modify the master plan and allow them to be victorious?

Horseshit, all of it.

A “divine plan” exists in the minds of those unwilling to explore the universe around them, or for those to overwhelmed by it. It gives people a sense of security in a universe full of unknowns. This plan is therefore for the weak-minded. And the idea that one thinks s/he can change it through prayer is a reverberation of one’s own selfishness.

As it has been for millennia, if you want to change/influence/direct the outcome of “something” you must take it upon yourself to do it. You can change the “plan” but you do it alone.

 

[Rick Deckard]

This plan is therefore for the weak-minded. And the idea that one thinks s/he can change it through prayer is a reverberation of one’s own selfishness.

Absolutely - religion is also great for dodging responsibility. How many times have we heard "It is God's will" used to justify all sorts of barbaric acts?

 

[fitzbew88]

You are assuming there is a divine plan. CapnG is saying if there is one as you suggest the premise of prayer is faulty.

I most certainly am not assuming there is a Divine Plan (in fact, I have no such belief). I am suggesting that the notion of prayer does not automatically exclude a the possibility of a Divine Plan.

A divine plan is Divine and therefore beyond the scope of you or me. A prayer is supposed to change the plan? Even when you are really sincere about it?

Why not? Why can't the details of a plan change?

So, when I see these athletes praying before a game on national TV I should think that if they are sincere and if they want it bad enough god would modify the master plan and allow them to be victorious?

If God chooses to, yes. Why can't a plan be both Divine and flexible?

Horseshit, all of it.

Possibly. So what?

A “divine plan” exists in the minds of those unwilling to explore the universe around them, or for those to overwhelmed by it. It gives people a sense of security in a universe full of unknowns. This plan is therefore for the weak-minded. And the idea that one thinks s/he can change it through prayer is a reverberation of one’s own selfishness.

These are wild declarative statements. I don't see why someone can't believe in a Divine Plan and still explore, be overwhelmed, insecure, and strong-minded.

As it has been for millennia, if you want to change/influence/direct the outcome of “something” you must take it upon yourself to do it. You can change the “plan” but you do it alone.

All of this could still be true, even in the presence of a [flexible] Divine Plan.

 

[Rick Deckard]

I suspect that the 'divine plan' is for the churches to empty your wallets as quickly as they can...

 

[Seth]

I suspect that the 'divine plan' is for the churches to empty your wallets as quickly as they can...

"Praise the lord!"

 

[fitzbew88]

I suspect that the 'divine plan' is for the churches to empty your wallets as quickly as they can...

But what can we infer from this? The presence of abuse in religion doesn't allow us to draw conclusions about Divine Plans or Prayer.

Everything has been abused.

 

[Michael L.]

I am not sure that, according to your scenario, you can attribute your work to the divine. If you didn't have a really sweet fire and brimstone style vision, how do you know that it is divinely inspired? I say unless the Virgin Mary (or some other appropriate representative of Team Heaven) shows up with a white board full of information, I don't think you get to say it is divine inspiration. At least not in my book.

In regards to the Divine Plan and prayer, I like to think that there is a giant call center in Heaven listening to prayers and deciding what happens to them. For something like that I would think that at best if you get an angelic operator in a good mood you might get transferred to the appropriate patron saint, if they are taking calls.

I also like to think of Hell as a shady bar and grill with like country and western acts. This is mainly because I like to picture the Devil like a slick, shady bar owner in an all black western cut suit with notes on it (like Hank Williams) and alligator boots.

 

[mike]

ive looked at the evidence for Panspermia and am very comfortable with it.
anyone who's cleaned a bathroom will tell you mould grows anywhere it can, and the panspermic model of simple bacteria travelling from planet to planet makes sense to me.

being comfortable with Panspermia as the mechanism for life on this planet my next factor up the chain is did these basic spores of life come here by random chance or were they "sent" by some sort of "intelligence" either divine, synthetic, or just plain old Bio form feral intellects like ourselves....

at this point i must consider that both factors could be at play in the universe, ie feral bacteria floats from planet to planet and an intellect has mimicked that process and refined it, purposly seeding planets that are statistically more likely to spark into an eco system.

we have brought back cameras from the moon, left by one mission retrieved by another which was found to have bacteria inside that had survived the wait on an airless moon, so it has happened this way on at least one occasion, ive no doubt weve seeded bacteria to mars already via our various surface probots.

from this perspective id advise the geneticist "do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" as another ratbag once said

 

[CapnG]

I think you're missing my underlying point, fritz. For God to be GOD he must be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. That means that when the universe was created, GOD knew exactly how it would end. But more than that, he knew the exact position of every quark and atom from one microsecond to the next within all of timespace BEFORE they were ever created.

Ergo, GOD knows your prayers before you speak them and in fact, knew them (and whether or not they would be answered as you hoped they would) a billion years before humanity ever existed (or for Baptists, on "Day 2"). Or do you think you can "surprise" God with a really whacky request? WTF kind of god is THAT...

You see, if GOD knows everything, then God knows EVERYTHING. Free will is an illusion and everything is set as is. That's why I hate baptists and evangelicals because, if you follow the logic according to them God is a douchebag and I refuse to worship douchebags.

 

[Seth]

That's why I hate baptists and evangelicals because, if you follow the logic according to them God is a douchebag and I refuse to worship douchebags.

OMG, I think that is the first time I guffawed!

 

[fitzbew88]

I think you're missing my underlying point, fritz. For God to be GOD he must be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. That means that when the universe was created, GOD knew exactly how it would end. But more than that, he knew the exact position of every quark and atom from one microsecond to the next within all of timespace BEFORE they were ever created.

And why can't this Super-view change from moment to moment? Why does being a Super-being mean that you cannot change your plan in response to prayer? Why can't a super-being decide to let me have free will?

Is it really sensible to assign such super-powers to an entity and then deny them the ability to change? Even I can do that! ( I think! )

Ergo, GOD knows your prayers before you speak them and in fact, knew them (and whether or not they would be answered as you hoped they would) a billion years before humanity ever existed (or for Baptists, on "Day 2"). Or do you think you can "surprise" God with a really whacky request? WTF kind of god is THAT...

Of course none of us can speak with certainty on these matters. I, for one, believe that I have free will and thus *can* surprise God. My Protestant-type religious upbringing (I am not active) made it abundantly clear that I could choose between good and bad.

You see, if GOD knows everything, then God knows EVERYTHING. Free will is an illusion and everything is set as is. That's why I hate baptists and evangelicals because, if you follow the logic according to them God is a douchebag and I refuse to worship douchebags.

Yes, of course, these folk are tiring and offensive sometimes. Mostly, I just ignore them.

Why can't I have a God that does know "everything", but only intervenes when it fits his plan?

It does not seem sound to me to argue against a Divine Plan or the usefulness of Prayer by describing the "omnipotent" as unable to accommodate something as trivial as my own free will.

 

[mike]

just my personal take on things, and for me they form a comfortable universal fit.

im of the mind that intellect comes in two forms, your crude and basic form, one that occurs naturally given suitable environment/time etc
Bio Intellect i call it , and we humans are a classic example.
but im also of the mind that synthetic intelligence is not only possible, but better suited to the huge time scale we are talking about where the universe is concerned.

given almost unlimited amounts of time, memory and processing power a synthetic intellect in my opinion starts to take on the characteristics that would fit the god model, but in a very nuts and bolts way, nothing mystical about it.

and while ive posted this link before i do so again to illustrate the idea.

the "eyes" in the link below are synthetic.

imagine hooking eyes like these to a synthetic intellect with unlimited memory and processing power......imagine it also had the ability to actually intereact with what it sees.......

http://www.flixxy.com/hubble-deep-field.htm

imagine being "wired" to be able to see like this and be able to "take it all in" with the same ease we take our immediate environment ?

 

[The Pair of Cats]

The problem with God's plan is, it was written on toilet paper and it depends on which religious denomination uses it to wipe its arse as to the type of shit that ends up on/in it.

Ron.
as to Q1....maybe you had the answer all along and just needed to clear away the mental noise to see or hear it

Q2......more likely part of YOUR plan as it was your intention to help those in need.

Q3......part of someone elses plan. Once you discover something and it becomes public others will end up using it and not necessarily in the ways you might have intended.

Now, lets say that someone else uses this technology to grow an entire brain and hook it to eyes and a spine. Lets firther suppose that we are able, through further manipulations, to engineer that brain to function at a diminished intellectual capacity but at a high dexterous capability. We then use this new being to do the "dangerous" jobs thereby sparing the lives of honest parishioner's. (yeah, I know there are some leaps here but the tech stuff isnt the point.)

So now we have a "new" being that composes of eyes, a brain and a spine doing dangerous jobs. I think i know what you're getting at but as far as Q4 to Q5 you would have to describe this new entity a little better.
Overall, Ron if you discover a breakthrough in science or medicine that can help severely disadvantaged or desperately sick people, who gives a shit what God thinks just go ahead and do it.
The funny thing is, the millions of people that you help will probably consider you a God! lol

 

[CapnG]

And why can't this Super-view change from moment to moment? Why does being a Super-being mean that you cannot change your plan in response to prayer? Why can't a super-being decide to let me have free will?

Because you're thinking in terms of human timespace interaction. For God to be GOD, time is irrelevant. For him to be both Alpha AND Omega he also has to be everything inbetween.

Also, assuming for a millisecond GOD didn't "know" what you were going to do next, for you to be able to surprise god would mean his intellectual capacaity was not sufficient to predict your behaviours, which doesn't make sense either. God either knows everything or he doesn't and if he DOESN'T then he's not god, in which case debates about a divine plan and/or prayer become wholly irrelevant and utterly pointless.

 

[Ron Collins]

And why can't this Super-view change from moment to moment? Why does being a Super-being mean that you cannot change your plan in response to prayer? Why can't a super-being decide to let me have free will?

Because you're thinking in terms of human timespace interaction. For God to be GOD, time is irrelevant. For him to be both Alpha AND Omega he also has to be everything inbetween.

Also, assuming for a millisecond GOD didn't "know" what you were going to do next, for you to be able to surprise god would mean his intellectual capacaity was not sufficient to predict your behaviours, which doesn't make sense either. God either knows everything or he doesn't and if he DOESN'T then he's not god, in which case debates about a divine plan and/or prayer become wholly irrelevant and utterly pointless.

=--=--= Devils Advocate Alert =--=--=
Perhaps you are both right. In physics, there is the concept of multiple dimensions playing out all possibilities to infinity. Could this be the physical manifestation of “God’s” omniscience? Your perceptions are the reality for this possibility. I just thought that might be good for a discussion.
=--=--= Devils Advocate Alert =--=--=

Switching angles a bit, I want to look at this notion of “free will” helping to alter things. This notion that “God” is omniscient in the present but may be limited by our free will to manipulate the future. He makes executive decisions he believes will further him to the “goal” (whatever that is) but has no real certain view of the distant future nor the ability to invoke a “do over”.

But in order to have it this way, we must consider a God that is fallible. A God that is often uncertain. A God, despite his enormity of power and intellect is burdened by his creations free will.

Interesting side note: This is much like the powers attributed to the “Gods” of many polytheistic religions. Mortal behavior could and often did sway the plans of the pantheon.

So, getting back to the original series of questions, let’s assume that this God is our creator. This God has abilities that we perceive as limitless. It is supposed to be our goal to serve him and to glorify him in all that we do. (insert your choice of religious doctrine here)

So, if we have a fallible God. A god that has a higher intellect, greater technology, is limited less through his understanding of the universe and has the barest of a plan for our existence. What makes that different from humans that would create a lesser intellectually capable being to do the things we do not want to do? What makes that different from us creating lesser intellectually capable being and using its development for scientific study? To that being are we not then GODS?

Oh, and I just realized that I misspelled the word “pray”. Sorry about that. It was probably something Freudian that made me do it.

 

[CapnG]

Switching angles a bit, I want to look at this notion of “free will” helping to alter things. This notion that “God” is omniscient in the present but may be limited by our free will to manipulate the future. He makes executive decisions he believes will further him to the “goal” (whatever that is) but has no real certain view of the distant future nor the ability to invoke a “do over”.

That would make him less a god and more of a universal CEO and the Divine plan wouldn't be a plan at all, more like a Divine Guide book or Celestial Liner notes.

It's a question of absolutes. If we have any influence in the way things are run (prayer) then God cannot be in absolute control (divine plan). In other words, if we gain power, god must lose it, making him a "small g" god at best.