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Questions For Ray Stanford: White Sands 1978

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I'm not sure if some of the forum members remember/realize that Ray graciously allowed us to post his data here at the Paracast. I hope the insults, off-hand dismissals, innuendo and gross character attacks won't make future guests reluctant to post their scientific work here...
Enjoy the show...

I hope so as well, also my comment was ment honestly (seems one has to add a caveat these days...).
I just checked in to the forums yesterday again, I was in for a surprise.... ,Anyhow, you do a great job as a co-host, Chris, and (i mean that honestly as well) keep us updated about the valley surveillance system.
 
[Ray extended a paracast show appearance head's up to renegade physicist Jack Sarfatti's "stardrive.org" list--a who's who of cutting edge scientists and thinkers: Sarfatti had some questions about the field equipment and time code particulars used during the White Sands 1978 investigation--here's Ray's response (posted w/ permission):

"Hello, Jack,
[SNIP]
You highlighted my instrumented UFO tracking project mobile lab.

"As of sometime Sunday, Chris O'Brien will get some [more] photos up on The Paracast website, of some of our equipment. I will try to get some more that maybe he can put up. The physical vehicle for the mobile lab was a Chevrolet Silverado with an 80-gallon gas tank [SNIP] Depending on the trip, we carried various equipment items, from both our permanently located optical and electronic labs -- photos of those will be up on The Paracast website sometime tomorrow -- located on our 400 acre labs site N-W of Austin, Texas, in the lake country just off Volente Road.

"Now, I think you are asking HOW we coordinated the WWVB magnetometer and gravimeter recorder's WWVB date and time binary data with the optical images. That depended upon the equipment being used in an encounter, but in the nocturnal White Sands case, we had two audio recorders running. One with a very broadband, directional microphone used to point directly at a UFO, the other had a mic positioned between our 35 mm cameras and the central unit for processing and recording outputs from the mag and grav sensors, which were located roughly 300 feet from the highway and from where the Silverado was parked. On the aforementioned central processor and recorder, there is a switch that was turned on for analog audio magnetometer sensor output (as contrasts with the two digital , the mag and the grav, sensor inputs being recorded on a cassette tape in IRIG format, along with WWVB and a reference tone) so that the 'ambient sounds recorder was getting THAT, along with every click of the spectrum and also the telephoto camera -- which, by the way, the various cameras' clicks made different sounds, and the spectrum camera sound was extra distinctive, it being a Miranda Laborec.

"That arrangement was very critical in later calculating the DISTANCE of the objects (and, thus size, using photo data for angular size) because the mag and grav data reached our sensors essentially instantly, while the audio was of course was reaching us at local sound speed. Thus, using the local speed of sound and counting the lag between the mag signal and the audio signal, a reasonably accurate distance was obtained. it turns out that their highly acrobatic maneuvers were very close to the sequencing signal panels on Oscura Peak. if I recall correctly, much of it was probably within 400 feet of the N N-W side of those panels!

"On that same trip west with the mobile lab, during the much better DAYLIGHT event (July 27, 1978, beginning at ~ 6:24.5 PM mountain standard time) where we filmed a huge 'mothership', 'stargate' or whatever the thing was (pulsing something constantly off its south end), and quite a number of its shuttles (one wonderfully close), I was able to use the movie SOUND camera, with the analog of the mag output being recorded directly onto the sound strip with the film. Of course, we still have the speed differential between light and sound to deal with, but of course, that's kid's stuff. We heard no UFO sounds in that event, but the sound movie enabled correlation of object maneuvers with mag and grav sensor outputs.

"By the way, one of your list members, Bruce Maccabee, several years ago on UFO UpDates, falsely declared that the problem with our project's evidence is that it was poorly documented! What a sauropod-sized plop of B.S. that was! For example, in the 1978 cases, before our crew left Austin on the July 1978, trip to west Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona, just before each film was loaded into the camera (movie, still, spectrum), both our staff Ph.D. physicist and I inscribed with a needle, our signatures and the date of camera insertion, on the emulsion of each film. When we returned from the trip, all 35 mm film was processed with multiple witnesses present. That didn't happen with the movie, but only because it had to be sent off to Kodak for processing.

"Let me mention that following all three UFO mag-grav events on that 1978 trip, after the objects had departed, we took CONTROL background recordings with the mag-grav unit, which show how comparatively low a level the ELF magnetic was without the objects there.

"UFO mag and grav pulses recorded, UFO sounds recorded, UFO spectra recorded!.

"Add the three adult crew members as witnesses, with each of our voices on the ambient audio event tapes, and I challenge you, Bruce, to show us ANY non-government case that is even 25% that well-documented and filled with scientifically meaningful hard data.

"All major maneuver position coordinates in the White Sands July 19-1978, case were also recorded on audio tape, using a Suunto Azimuth finder and a g-horizon elevation finder.

"So, Bruce, if you wish t[o] allege that you simply didn't know about our extensive evidence documentation, then tell us WHY YOU PUT OUT THAT DISINFORMATION OF UFO UPDATES? That is not behavior becoming to a Ph.D. physicist. And, Bruce, don't come up with one of your typical smart humorous cracks in hopes everyone will just forget my point while laughing.

"Anyhow, Jack, I hope I've answered your excellent question(s). If not, please just ask me to clarify anything you'd like, or ask some new questions, after you've heard the interview tomorrow or whenever you can catch it.
[SNIP]
"I think pleading with Big Brother (AKA Uncle Sam) for "full disclosure" and screaming "It's a cosmic Watergate" are the mantra of fantasizers and I.C. moles. After all, the Watergate affair was not disclosed by Uncle Sam, but by private investigation. The UFO matter must be settled by private scientific analysis and peer-review publication (It's not so much what you say, but HOW you say it that gets you in there.
[SNIP]

Emphatically and sincerely, as always,

Ray Stanford
Organization for Physical UFO science"
 
COMPARING MAG & GRAV SIGNALS of 7-27-78.jpgThis slide shows analog graphs of the simultaneous output from both the magnetometer (detects and records magnetic field changes in the extreme low-frequency range) and the gravimeter (detects and records changes in acceleration due to gravity), during the visual and movie-filmed (on Kodak Super 8 mm film) encounter by my project mobile laboratory and our three-person crew (It included me.) with a very long 'mothership', 'stargate' or whatever it might be called, and associated 'shuttles', which seemed to just pop into view beside or near the 'mothership'.

So, please read the following necessarily abbreviated account of the event:

On the afternoon of July 27, 1978, we had driven the lab vehicle into the Prescott National Forest until the road we were on ended at high altitude on what we think was the Skull Valley Overlook. We waited there watching the daylight sky with the magnetometer and gravimeter sensors into passive (not recording) monitoring mode and carefully watched the sky for several hours. Tiring of the non-productive hours, we decided to wind up the long shielded cables of both sensors (magnetometer and gravimeter), put the equipment back in the vehicle, and head into Prescott.

Just as we were putting the last item back in the vehicle, I declared in frustration, "I KNOW those bastards. Just as sure as this stuff in all in, they will show up." Within ten seconds, one of the two other crew members shouted, pointing high almost above us. "Look! Look at that thing up there!"

Just as I had half joked, high up was a white spherical-looking object (about 1/5 the moon's angular size, or ~ 6 arc minutes), moving in sine wave (look it up if needed) path at maybe five degrees per second into our northwest! We grabbed the sensors and cable rolls, and rushed them out to their proper positions and deployments, but before things were readied, the object had darted into the near-top of a rather isolated cumulonimbus 'thunder cloud', an estimated 90 miles away to our northwest, in the approximate direction of Winslow, Arizona.

By the time I manually turned on the mag-grav unit, there was only typical background ELF magnetic activity, so I set the trigger threshold far up the gauge from that and turned the unit onto passive monitoring. If ELF magnetic pulses above the set threshold level were to occur, the unit would turn itself on and start simultaneously recording sensor output from the magnetometer, the gravimeter, the WWVB date and time signal from the National Bureau of Standards broadcast from Fort Collins, Colorado, and a reference tone. I set the machine so that it would also alert us by putting out an audio-frequency analog of the ELM effects being detected.

At about 6:24.5 PM (The sun was still well up in the sky, as it was summer.), the magnetometer analog audio began blasting out strong audio pulses, and the needle showed me that the signal was very strong and far above even the high threshold I had set earlier. We looked around but at first saw nothing, when suddenly one of us spotted a long, narrow something coming out of that distant cumulonimbus cloud into which the white object had disappeared minutes before. The long, narrow object with an aspect ratio (length to thickness) of maybe as 20-30 to 1, 'parked' itself to the south of the cloud, with, all the while, bright 'something' pulsing rapidly off that south end.

I grabbed the sound-recording movie camera and started filming, while recording the background audio analog output from the magnetometer on the film soundtrack. From time to time, sudden bursts into visibility by smaller objects occurred, right beside or very near what we now realized must be a 'mothership'. That was as at the estimated 90 miles away, but you can see one of the seemingly huge delta-like objects (with a corona) that suddenly popped into view there, in the upper-right of this slide.

In the two simultaneous analog graphs, from both magnetometer (top) and gravimeter (below), we can immediately see the very strong correlation between the magnetic and the gravimetric effects during specifically spikes of very short duration. Each little square represents 1/25th second, so count five of the larger squares of five small ones each, and you can see what one second of sensor input looks like.

The data recorded in this event (there are many yards of analog graph) have been analyzed by a physicist and engineer at Design Technology Corporation that produced the dual unit, and we were told that the gravimeter output cannot be accounted for by 'channel cross-talk' (a technical term) nor can it be explained my magnetic induction by the UFO magnetic effects (Keep in mind, too, that cables were shielded from magnetic and electrical pulses.). One fact supporting that conclusion is the relative height of short-duration spikes in the gravimeter sensor output, as contrasted with relatively short correlated spikes in the magnetometer sensor output.

The exaggeration of the spike in the gravimeter sensor output (relative to it in the magnetic) was explained as due to inertia of the sensor mass in the gravimeter sensor. The inertial effect would not be in evidence if the sensor were operating within the frequency range for which it was designed, but those particular spikes were of such short duration that the effect of sensor mass inertia shows up in the signal output.

later, to be sure, my project had the magnetic and gravitic data analyzed by our staff Ph.D. physicist and by two engineers. One was a mechanical engineer, the other, an electrical engineer. THEY EACH CONCURRED WITH THE MANUFACTURER, THAT THE GRAVIMETER SENSOR OUT-PUT REPRESENTS ACTUAL WAVES OF CHANGE IN ACCELERATION DUE TO GRAVITY. The same is true for the recordings made during the 35-minute two-UFO encounter, on the north edge of the White Sands Proving Ground, about eight days earlier, very late in the night of July 19, 1978.
 
Now this is where this forum is breaking down. Rudeness toward a host which would not be tolerated on any other show that I know of has been encouraed here. Both, by a co host or at least a part time co host and by moderators. It's a shame cause it wouldn't happen in most places. No, you don't have to "agree" with a host. But, to continually bait and snipe just to get a reaction is extremely silly. For instance when I'm at work and a member of the public has a gripe I don't throw my co worker under the bus. I may "direct" them to the proper people to talk with. I do know one thing if this keeps up (imo) Gene will have to step in and feelings and egos will get bruised. Anyway, just my two cents.
 
Now this is where this forum is breaking down. Rudeness toward a host which would not be tolerated on any other show that I know of has been encouraed here. Both, by a co host or at least a part time co host and by moderators. It's a shame cause it wouldn't happen in most places. No, you don't have to "agree" with a host. But, to continually bait and snipe just to get a reaction is extremely silly. For instance when I'm at work and a member of the public has a gripe I don't throw my co worker under the bus. I may "direct" them to the proper people to talk with. I do know one thing if this keeps up (imo) Gene will have to step in and feelings and egos will get bruised. Anyway, just my two cents.

I think we tolerate a lot more than most forums of this type in terms of disrespect.

However, if it goes any further there will be bans aplenty. I'm getting sick and tired of the untrue claims about the change of direction of the show, simply because we no longer post messages here telling you not to listen to an episode because the guest came across as somewhat kooky.
 
So no film again, right?
No, it hasn't been digitized, therefore it cannot be viewed on a computer or posted in its entirety. We already gone over this ground twice. Here's an idea Lance: If you'd help me, let's set up a funding campaign to get Ray's films converted to digital. He would have the primary data available for peer review and we'd have our oooh and ahhh moments. Hopefully, we can come up with a formula that allows the visual evidence to be available to the public before peer-review. Of course, there's Ray, but if we had a budget to hi-rez digitize his motion picture films (some shot on 16mm--some shot at 54 frames per second) I'd bet we could get him to post some of his killer footage. But, again, you've already seen some of his footage! Remember the beginning of every episode of that '70s show, In Search of:? The UFO hovering in the clouds? Probably the most widely seen UFO film footage ever(?)--a sighting event that was listed as a true unknown in Blue Book? Guess who took the footage? Did you know there was a second film taken at the same time, of the same event?
Remember the baby and the bathwater--and we should all be advised against judging books by thier covers (or detractors). etc
 
No, it hasn't been digitized, therefore it cannot be viewed on a computer or posted in its entirety. We already gone over this ground twice. Here's an idea Lance: If you'd help me, let's set up a funding campaign to get Ray's films converted to digital. He would have the primary data available for peer review and we'd have our oooh and ahhh moments. Hopefully, we can come up with a formula that allows the visual evidence to be available to the public before peer-review. Of course, there's Ray, but if we had a budget to hi-rez digitize his motion picture films (some shot on 16mm--some shot at 54 frames per second) I'd bet we could get him to post some of his killer footage. But, again, you've already seen some of his footage! Remember the beginning of every episode of that '70s show, In Search of:? The UFO hovering in the clouds? Probably the most widely seen UFO film footage ever(?)--a sighting event that was listed as a true unknown in Blue Book? Guess who took the footage? Did you know there was a second film taken at the same time, of the same event?
Remember the baby and the bathwater--and we should all be advised against judging books by thier covers (or detractors). etc

I know where Ray can get his funding - he's a psychic right? Two options: He can foresee the winning lottery numbers. Or two, shut up all the skeptics and debunkers (myself included) by winning the million dollar JREF challenge.

Perhaps Ray is psychic, as he deftly evaded any good question you asked him this week. I can't fault you for not trying Chris, you did ask him some things I would have asked him - he just didn't really answer anything.
 
I'm listening to the show right now and enjoying it. Ray has some great stories. I think the "euphoria" phenomena he mentions is very interesting. I've read a lot of the "literature" and I cannot remember ever hearing anyone mention it before. Has anyone else heard of this before?
 
I'm listening to the show right now and enjoying it. Ray has some great stories. I think the "euphoria" phenomena he mentions is very interesting. I've read a lot of the "literature" and I cannot remember ever hearing anyone mention it before. Has anyone else heard of this before?

Think of "The OZ Factor" which has been talked about for years. Could be the same thing described in a different way.
 
I know where Ray can get his funding - he's a psychic right? Two options: He can foresee the winning lottery numbers. Or two, shut up all the skeptics and debunkers (myself included) by winning the million dollar JREF challenge.

Perhaps Ray is psychic, as he deftly evaded any good question you asked him this week. I can't fault you for not trying Chris, you did ask him some things I would have asked him - he just didn't really answer anything.

On a more serious note he could offer a private screening to Bigelow, a guy we all know is interested in the phenomenon and has the cash to get things done. If Bigelow were impressed perhaps he would pay to have all of the material digitized and properly archived.

---------- Post added at 11:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

But then again I've heard stories about Robert Bigelow liking to assume quite a bit of control over things he's funding and Ray doesn't seem much like the relinquishing control type, ha ha. But he's gotta' try something. He ain't gettin' any younger.
 
Well, here is hoping that Ray S. and Ted P. become regular guests on the show as they progressively share with us some of their evidence. I'd love to hear them together on a show discussing the problems associated with doing paranormal/UFO research and what drives both men to keep their evidence so close to their chests. I'm sure they have well thought out reasons. I look forward to whatever audio, video, photo, evidence that eventually gets released due to their appearances on the Paracast.
 
Thanks Chris and extend my thanks to Mr. Stanford, re-listening to the episode with this map/picture makes it a whole lot clearer.
 
Yeah, gotta' admit it puzzles me that he hasn't even released the audio tape that was talked about.

I'd love for him to blow my mind and make me change the way I think about UFOs. I fear that while he may have been sincere, he now realizes what he has isn't as grand as he made it out to be. It take very little effort to digitize a photograph, film, or piece of audio.
 
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